There Is No Such Thing As Evil

[Tantum_ergo]

This goes back to crowonsnow’s previous point. I only wished to clarify your beliefs. I believe that the death and suffering caused by a natural disaster is inherently evil, so that is my problem with your argument.

All people must die some time. Now, if a person does not think that there is a ‘higher purpose’ or an afterlife, I suppose that person would think somebody killed in a natural disaster ‘before his/her time’ was a victim of ‘ill fate’. . . But if a person believes that we are all created by God, then we become at once more responsible and free (because we have a great influence in our thoughts, words and actions on our own ultimate eternal fate . . we aren’t random bits of energy that can exist for periods of time, short or long, and then POOF! nothing), as well as more ‘dependent’ and ‘cared for’ (while we can act for good in our lives, our ultimate destiny is in God’s hands, which keeps us from the arrogance of thinking we can mold everything and everything in the world to suit us, and also keeps us from despair when we CANNOT ‘control’ things to suit us, as we never did possess the ‘control’ over outside forces or even other people that we might think we did except for such examples as natural disasters.)

Please forgive and correct me if I am wrong, but I think you’re saying saying that God is still omnipotent – that is he had the power to prevent Lucifer’s defection but did not out of concern for Lucifer’s free will. This is a valid point, and I concede it. But suffering and evil still exist that are not a part of free will, such as disease.

Yes, God is omnipotent. Disease is again related to that free will. . .with the fall of Adam and Eve. Had they not fallen, disease organisms which affect us today would not have affected us for evil as we would have had a natural immunity, most likely. But since humanity became subject to death, then those things like diseases and natural disasters became able to affect us to cause death. So in the end, it does go back to free will.

But what is the Glory of God, and how does suffering fit into it? that is what I don’t understand.

I didn’t speak about the Glory of God myself, but I do know that God is perfectly glorious and perfectly good. I know also that suffering, while it does cause pain, can in many circumstances, with the cooperation of the sufferer, be turned into an action of loving acceptance and cooperation with the will of God which makes the suffering ‘meaningful’. While I’m speaking mostly of spiritual acceptances, think about those people who willingly take on the burden of going to war, risking their own lives. They suffer in order to keep others from worse suffering, in an unselfish gesture of love. And we can all do this. . .we can all choose to be unselfish. That doesn’t mean that we ignore our needs in false ‘humility’ or recklessly throw away our lives when a very simple action could have kept us safe and able to keep others safer longer. One must use prudence.

If I take your first statement as true, then their free will didn’t kill them, God killed them. You just said so yourself – God drowned them.
OK, that was another poster who spoke of this so I’ll leave the discussion to that poster.

Again, as crowonsnow said, this is a point of definition where we differ which makes it hard for us to find a common ground.

 

[PJM]

So one of the things I was taught growing up is that Satan cannot act without God’s permission. This comes from the story of Job. So, I got to thinking about it and if Satan cannot act without God’s permission, then that means that God is responsible for all evil.

Now, I’m also told that nothing God does is bad or evil and is always righteous, no matter what he does.

So logically, if nothing God does is evil, and Satan cannot act without God’s permission, then that means that nothing is evil, even though technically the actions are done by Satan and his minions but of course it is impossible for him to do anything without God’s permission.

Reply:

First allow me to answer your Topic Question:

Yep, I agree! If you don’t believe me, just ask me If I say it’s not wrong then by golly, it’s not wrong!

Satan can’t make you do anything is as far as the East is from the West, **in putting blame where it is due! **Satan can’t touch our “free-will’s” but as often as not Satan is the Ruler of our emotions. Does Satan make us sin? No, but does Satan CAUSE US TO SIN?

Yep, you know it and I know it.

We can say “yes God or No God”, and we can say “yes to Satan or No to Satan.” What an awesome God we have!

Nice try though

God bless, have a very nice day!

PJM m.c.

 

[JDaniel]

So one of the things I was taught growing up is that Satan cannot act without God’s permission. This comes from the story of Job. So, I got to thinking about it and if Satan cannot act without God’s permission, then that means that God is responsible for all evil.

In the same way a mom permits her child to play in the fenced front yard. Now, while playing in the front yard, the ball he is playing with ricochets out into the street. Upon skirting the fence, and going out into the street, the child is struck by a car and killed. Is the mom guilty of killing her child?

Now, I’m also told that nothing God does is bad or evil and is always righteous, no matter what he does.

The word “permit” means to acquiesce to or give tacit acceptance to. If God acquiesces as regards to evil, for purposes only He can calculate, then, perhaps, it is righteous.

So logically, if nothing God does is evil

Correct, but, ill-conceived considering what is to follow.

and Satan cannot act without God’s permission

Faulty middle premise.

then that means that nothing is evil, even though technically the actions are done by Satan and his minions

Totally false conclusion.

JD

 

[Swan]

This goes back to crowonsnow’s previous point. I only wished to clarify your beliefs. I believe that the death and suffering caused by a natural disaster is inherently evil, so that is my problem with your argument.

Please forgive and correct me if I am wrong, but I think you’re saying saying that God is still omnipotent – that is he had the power to prevent Lucifer’s defection but did not out of concern for Lucifer’s free will. This is a valid point, and I concede it. But suffering and evil still exist that are not a part of free will, such as disease.

But what is the Glory of God, and how does suffering fit into it? that is what I don’t understand.

If I take your first statement as true, then their free will didn’t kill them, God killed them. You just said so yourself – God drowned them.

Again, as crowonsnow said, this is a point of definition where we differ which makes it hard for us to find a common ground.

Excellent points. The entire question of why a loving, all powerful God would allow suffering is clearly a real problem. If we say that that God doesn’t allow it, then he isn’t all powerful. If he just doesn’t intervene, then he’s not so loving. So it must somehow be man’s fault. Thus the story of the “fall”. Just my thoughts, I realize they aren’t real popular here.

 

[Jefe_Wyatt]

I’ve got a lot to answer to, I’ll try to address everyone:

Excellent points. The entire question of why a loving, all powerful God would allow suffering is clearly a real problem. If we say that that God doesn’t allow it, then he isn’t all powerful. If he just doesn’t intervene, then he’s not so loving. So it must somehow be man’s fault. Thus the story of the “fall”. Just my thoughts, I realize they aren’t real popular here.

Popularity is overrated, but I appreciate your thoughts. I disagree with your conclusion that it must somehow be man’s fault, because I had nothing to do with the fall of Adam and Eve, so why should I have to suffer for it?

All people must die some time. Now, if a person does not think that there is a ‘higher purpose’ or an afterlife, I suppose that person would think somebody killed in a natural disaster ‘before his/her time’ was a victim of ‘ill fate’. . . But if a person believes that we are all created by God, then we become at once more responsible and free

Correct, and do not believe in an afterlife, which is why I hold my belief. You believe in an afterlife, which is why you hold yours.

Yes, God is omnipotent. Disease is again related to that free will. . .with the fall of Adam and Eve. Had they not fallen, disease organisms which affect us today would not have affected us for evil as we would have had a natural immunity, most likely. But since humanity became subject to death, then those things like diseases and natural disasters became able to affect us to cause death. So in the end, it does go back to free will.

But as I said before, Adam and Eve’s free will is not my own. I never made that decision, so it doesn’t seem fair that I have to suffer for it.

I didn’t speak about the Glory of God myself, but I do know that God is perfectly glorious and perfectly good. I know also that suffering, while it does cause pain, can in many circumstances, with the cooperation of the sufferer, be turned into an action of loving acceptance and cooperation with the will of God which makes the suffering ‘meaningful’. While I’m speaking mostly of spiritual acceptances, think about those people who willingly take on the burden of going to war, risking their own lives. They suffer in order to keep others from worse suffering, in an unselfish gesture of love.

The key is that not all cases of suffering can be reduced to good. Maybe many can be, but that would seem to imply that God is not perfectly good.

im sorry, let me rephrase and say spiritually rabid, sin is offensive to G-d, he put them down as in the manner of a rabid dog. one who bites and snarls at you, one who will infect others if you don’t put him down. G-d saved the few uninfected and destroyed the rest, is that a better analogy?

A better analogy that helps me understand the story of Noah a bit better. I still absolutely do not agree with God’s doings in this, but I can see how a Christian would see it as divine retribution.

thats avoiding the point, why do you think suffering is evil? because you don’t believe it has a purpose?

do you have a logical argument to make that supports your
beliefs? or do you simply choose what to believe from a buffet of philosophies?

I wish to define evil as the source of suffering because I think that suffering is uncomfortable at best, and a true attack of the human spirit at worst. I think that it is a very negative thing, and so I view the things that cause it as very negative. I would call these things the evils of the world.

if you want to know what we believe than we can tell you. but if you don’t believe in heaven, or hell, or G-d then what can we tell you?

Yes, I know how frustrating it can be to discuss philosophy with a person that doesn’t hold your same basic worldview. Everywhere you turn you find issues that simply can’t be resolved because of a fundamental difference in belief. I think that these issues should still be discussed though, in the interest of gaining a broader perspective.

Plus, it allows discussions to evolve into some very interesting philosophical ones, such as “What is evil?”, for example.

as an atheist, what basis do you have to believe that concepts of evil or good, or suffering , or free will even exist?

Free will is easy. I can eat the apple or I can eat the orange. I have the capacity to choose, therefore I know I have free will. Same with suffering. I have suffered, not to a great degree, but to a reasonably large one, and so I know that suffering exists.

Evil and good are a bit harder. Most atheists don’t believe in intrinsic evil or good, because it is impossible to improve that these exist. I agree with them that the concepts of evil and good are mostly philosophical labels, and though I do have an irrational belief in an inherent evil and good in some things of life, I’m perfectly willing to accept that these terms need to be humanly defined and are very much open to debate.

 

[crowonsnow]

Evil is basically ‘spoiled good’.

Then “good” is merely ‘unspoiled evil.’ So you really haven’t distinguished a difference between the two.

Sadness is spoiled joy. Joy is unspoiled sadness. Where does that get us? We could go on like that forever.

 

[Fran65]

because I had nothing to do with the fall of Adam and Eve, so why should I have to suffer for it?

I have a serious and life threatening heart condition. It results in many restrictions and suffering in my life. I am a young, intelligent, professional woman who has tried to do her best throughout her life.

I don’t know why I have the condition - it is believed to be genetic. I don’t think that I deserve it -but equally I don’t think others deserve their suffering either.

My faith in God does not explain why I have this condition. However, it gives me reasons to cope and to make the best of my life; it gives me a framework within which to work given my restrictions. Without my faith I’m not sure that I would cope; and given the odds of survival in any year it is truly amazing that I have lived to the age that I have -statistically I should not have made it out of my teens. God’s work? Who knows. But I know He has me in the palm of his hand…

I know how frustrating it can be to discuss philosophy with a person that doesn’t hold your same basic worldview. Everywhere you turn you find issues that simply can’t be resolved because of a fundamental difference in belief. I think that these issues should still be discussed though, in the interest of gaining a broader perspective.

Oh yes. There is a limit to how far the discussion can go though. An impasse is reached between atheists and Catholics and that is inevitable without some movement in belief.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Free will is easy. I can eat the apple or I can eat the orange. I have the capacity to choose, therefore I know I have free will. Same with suffering. I have suffered, not to a great degree, but to a reasonably large one, and so I know that suffering exists.

Evil and good are a bit harder. Most atheists don’t believe in intrinsic evil or good, because it is impossible to improve that these exist. I agree with them that the concepts of evil and good are mostly philosophical labels, and though I do have an irrational belief in an inherent evil and good in some things of life, I’m perfectly willing to accept that these terms need to be humanly defined and are very much open to debate.

with free will, if we only believe in a material universe, one of mathematical determinism, than one has no free will.

free will is completely dependent on the existence of a G-d.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

So one of the things I was taught growing up is that Satan cannot act without God’s permission. This comes from the story of Job. So, I got to thinking about it and if Satan cannot act without God’s permission, then that means that God is responsible for all evil.

This is true. It is called God’s “permissive will”, meaning that God wills to permit these things to happen. God permits Satan to do evil.

God also has a “perfect will”. These are the things God wishes Satan and other free beings would do. God’s perfect will is not the same as what results from His permissive will.

Now, I’m also told that nothing God does is bad or evil and is always righteous, no matter what he does.

That is correct. Therefore, we conclude it must be a good thing for God to permit evil.

It is impossible to understand in every case why it is good for God to permit evil. Sometimes parents will let children make mistakes so that they learn from them. That might explain why God permits evil in some cases. Also, if God did not permit evil, we would not be truly free. Perhaps true freedom with the resulting mix of good and evil is better than no freedom with only good?

 

[jkiernan56]

Great point.

My personal view is that suffering constitutes evil, but another may believe that suffering is a part of life and is not intrinsically evil. It is extremely hard for either of us to prove the other wrong, if not impossible. Evil isn’t some big thing hanging out there that we can go to and consult and say “Hmmm, yes it appears you were correct.”

And a further problem results if we cannot agree on the definitions. If you think that everything God does is good, and that is the accepted definition, my argument becomes absolutely and undeniably false.

I agree … your argument is absolutely and undeniably FALSE!!!

God is HOLY … and evil is the result of the misuse of the gift of free-will. But then again our ability to do “good” would not be possible without free-will (one of the 2 faculties of the soul). We are not robots or puppets on a string being controlled by God. Again to put it simply, we would not be able to love if we did not have a free-will nor would we be able to do evil. St. John tells us that “God is love” and calls us to know and love Him and turn away from sin/evil. Christ commands us to love God and to love our neighbor as ourselves. Love is impossible without free-will. Turning away from sin is also impossible without it as well. Why would God command something of us if we were just puppets on a string??? There would be no need for God to command if we were being controlled (ie … we do not have a free-will). God would just do it without our consent. Think about it.

It is absolute nonsense to deny the existence of free-will and thus evil.

 

[jkiernan56]

I have a serious and life threatening heart condition. It results in many restrictions and suffering in my life. I am a young, intelligent, professional woman who has tried to do her best throughout her life.

I don’t know why I have the condition - it is believed to be genetic. I don’t think that I deserve it -but equally I don’t think others deserve their suffering either.

My faith in God does not explain why I have this condition. However, it gives me reasons to cope and to make the best of my life; it gives me a framework within which to work given my restrictions. Without my faith I’m not sure that I would cope; and given the odds of survival in any year it is truly amazing that I have lived to the age that I have -statistically I should not have made it out of my teens. God’s work? Who knows. But I know He has me in the palm of his hand…

Oh yes. There is a limit to how far the discussion can go though. An impasse is reached between atheists and Catholics and that is inevitable without some movement in belief.

Fran, that was beautiful what you said. My heart and prayer goes out to you. I’m sure you have also heard the saying that “to a person without faith, no explanation is possible. To someone with faith, no explanation is necessary.” and another … “I believe in the sun even when it is not shining and I believe in God even when He is silent.”

St. Anselm says “The believer does not seek to understand, that he may believe, but he believes that he may understand: for unless he believed he would not understand.” But I have a problem with that. It is impossible to have and take the step of faith when a person has ideas about God that are simply not true. That would be like asking them to “believe” in pink elephants. It is craziness to believe in something that is absolutely not true. So it is extremely important for people to “get the junk out of the trunk in their minds” before they can have faith, the very purpose St. Thomas Aquinas wrote the Summa Theologica … for non-believers, not for believers.

 

[Jefe_Wyatt]

with free will, if we only believe in a material universe, one of mathematical determinism, than one has no free will.

free will is completely dependent on the existence of a G-d.

Free will is not at all dependent on the existence of a god. If we think of free will as merely the ability to choose a course of action, gods are removed from the equation. I choose courses of actions every day, and then act on those decisions. Explain to me where a god comes into it.

 

[Jefe_Wyatt]

I agree … your argument is absolutely and undeniably FALSE!!!

Then you do not agree with me at all. Perhaps you didn’t understand what I was saying. You think that everything everything God does is good, so you believe my argument to be false. My point was that if I cannot first convince you that your premise is false, any argument I can bring will be dismissed.

It is absolute nonsense to deny the existence of free-will and thus evil.

I do not deny the existence of either. I do however, deny the existence of a deity.

 

[jkiernan56]

Free will is not at all dependent on the existence of a god. If we think of free will as merely the ability to choose a course of action, gods are removed from the equation. I choose courses of actions every day, and then act on those decisions. Explain to me where a god comes into it.

First of all, nothing can exist unless God continually wills it to continue in being. God does not derive existance, but you do. We are contingent beings. The whole universe would cease to exist if God for a brief moment should stop thinking and willing it to be.

Second, the ability to make choices is one of the 2 faculties of your soul … given to you by God … the author and creator of everything that exists and is good (excluding evil which is an abberation of good).

 

[jkiernan56]

Then you do not agree with me at all. Perhaps you didn’t understand what I was saying. You think that everything everything God does is good, so you believe my argument to be false. My point was that if I cannot first convince you that your premise is false, any argument I can bring will be dismissed.

I do not deny the existence of either. I do however, deny the existence of a deity.

I apologize. I did not mean to sound disrespectful in my response. I am learning that how I say something is almost as important as what I say. You are right that since we cannot agree on terms and definitions, it will be impossible to have a mutual language to respectfully point to the errors in the other person’s discussion. You have every right to be wrong!!! just kidding … Yes, I do hold the belief that everything that God does is good and on that basis responded that your argument was false.

As far as denying the existence of a deity, I really do respect your right to think that although we totally disagree on that point. You can’t make yourself believe in something that is not true (like pink elephants). A person’s has to see something as true in their minds before they can take the step of faith. Otherwise blind faith without understanding is also craziness … bleeting sheep.

I am one of those kind of Christians that would rather sit down and have a beer with a good honest athiest … than a self-righteous Christian who look down their noses at others.

Peace

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Free will is not at all dependent on the existence of a god. If we think of free will as merely the ability to choose a course of action, gods are removed from the equation. I choose courses of actions every day, and then act on those decisions. Explain to me where a god comes into it.

sure,

we have an observable universe that functions according to well established physical laws, every particle in the universe has a mathematical relationship to every other particle. just like a gigantic game of pool, where every particle is is a pool ball, if you know the exact position of every particle, and the exact angle, direction, and energy of the break, then you can determine the exact outcome of that break.

or if you know the exact starting state of the universe, and have a giant computer powerful enough, then you can predict with 100% accuracy the end state of that universe, and at any point in between.

therefore free will in a strictly material universe is mathematically impossible.

any decision that you make in such a universe would have actually been determined at the big bang. you would have no real choice it would just be illusion, you would be a slave to the mathematics of physics.

that is how G-d plays into it

 

[warpspeedpetey]

I do not deny the existence of either. I do however, deny the existence of a deity.

on what basis?

are you saying that the universe popped out of nothing?

 

[warpspeedpetey]

I do not deny the existence of either. I do however, deny the existence of a deity.

on what basis?

are you saying that the universe simply popped into existence from nowhere?

 

[wcknight]

For the most part, suffering is just one of the possible negative results of having made a poor choice because of our free will. Suffering itself is neither good nor evil.

When someone choose evil or sin, one of the potential consequences is that they may inflict suffering on others either purposefully or accidentally. Someone who robs or attacks another can easily cause great suffering both to the victim and maybe eventually to themselves. The suffering is not evil but a consequence of a wrongful act.

On the other hand, one may choose to suffer for the greater good of another, such as Christ for all humanity or even closer to home, a parent who gives up free time to work a second job for their children to go to college or to better schools. Or as mentioned before there are the soldiers who put themselves in harms way for the benefit of others.

Suffering can be the result of evil or of good. Suffering by itself is neither good nor evil.

The answer to the question of why God allows suffering or why God does not prevent suffering is quite simple. We are here on earth, not in Heaven. On earth there is sin and evil, and as a consequence there is suffering. In Heaven all sin is vanquished and therefore there will be no suffering.

We may not be directly guilty of Adam’s sin, but we are humans and we all sin. The consequence of our sin is suffering and death. We all have sinful natures as a result of Adam’s fall and there is nothing that we can do about that EXCEPT to accept God’s mercy and forgiveness.

We can make all the excuses we want. That it is not our fault or we are not responible for Adam’s sin, but all that does, is to deny reality. We are here and we will die. We can die and go to Heaven or we can die and rot/suffer forever.

Those are the ONLY 2 possibilities. You can say you don’t believe in either, but it really does not not matter what you believe, you will end up in one place or the other.

And even IF you are correct, there is no God, What does that buy you ??? do you get to even gloat that you were right that there is no God, no Heaven or no Hell. No, you don’t even get the satisfaction of saying you were right.

 

[jkiernan56]

on what basis?

are you saying that the universe simply popped into existence from nowhere?

Only nothing can come from nothing. Something can only come from something. Christians and non-Christians who believe in God do hold that all reality came from the mind and will of God and continues in being by the same. “I AM WHO AM” … the first cause of all causes but WHO is not caused.