There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

[cazayoux]

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

I thought of another point this morning on my way to work while listening to mass.

If we have nothing to ‘do’, then why is there so much talk in scripture of us (Christians) being judged.

1 Cor 3 : 10-16
[10] According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it.

WE are building on the foundation that Christ himself laid.

[11] For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

The foundation is not for us to lay.
We agree that Christ alone made the only possible sufficient, perfect sacrifice to give us this foundation.

[12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw –
[13] each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
[14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
[15] If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

So our work will be judged. That judgment brings either reward or a suffering loss.

[16] Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?

It’s the Holy Spirit within us that make us Christians and lead to do God’s good work that He set aside for us.
While led by the Holy Spirit, the judgment is not of the Holy Spirit’s work, but of our works. We have ownership of our decisions.

I do not believe this judgment is for our salvation, though.
Even bad works will cause us to suffer loss, but it doesn’t say we lose salvation.
Neither can we say from this scripture that we earn our salvation.
There is nothing we can do to earn our way into heaven.

This scripture does show that our works will be judged.

Would you still say that works are just not necessary as if there is no accounting for them.

michel

 

[mikeledes]

I believe this is the heart of our division: There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. I personally don’t see much faith and confidence in most Roman Catholics in regards to this one simple truth. This needs to be received to grow in affections for our amazing Triune God. I particpate on this forum so all of us will grow together in our love for God through the truth of His Holy Word. Our religious affections is the key in our Christian battle within ourselves. We remove religous idols of our hearts through the sanctifying truths of God’s Holy Word (John 17:17). Embrace the truth of no condmenation for those who are in Christ Jesus. The real soul searching question should be “have you really been united to Christ”? That is a question all professing Christians should ask themselves, regardless of your church affiliations. To examine yourself to see if you are truly in the faith is taught in the Bible.

Here is the verse in context:

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

• Rom 8

Why is there now no condemnation for those who are in Christ?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Reformed]

I thought of another point this morning on my way to work while listening to mass.

If we have nothing to ‘do’, then why is there so much talk in scripture of us (Christians) being judged.

1 Cor 3 : 10-16
[10] According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it.

WE are building on the foundation that Christ himself laid.

[11] For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

The foundation is not for us to lay.
We agree that Christ alone made the only possible sufficient, perfect sacrifice to give us this foundation.

[12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw –
[13] each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
[14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
[15] If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

So our work will be judged. That judgment brings either reward or a suffering loss.

[16] Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?

It’s the Holy Spirit within us that make us Christians and lead to do God’s good work that He set aside for us.
While led by the Holy Spirit, the judgment is not of the Holy Spirit’s work, but of our works. We have ownership of our decisions.

I do not believe this judgment is for our salvation, though.
Even bad works will cause us to suffer loss, but it doesn’t say we lose salvation.
Neither can we say from this scripture that we earn our salvation.
There is nothing we can do to earn our way into heaven.

This scripture does show that our works will be judged.

Would you still say that works are just not necessary as if there is no accounting for them.

michel

I think we are in agreement if I understood your posting. The judgement for good works for those in Christ is not for salvation since our justification is based on the righteousness of Christ alone. The judgement for the Christian is for rewards. Although God is always the ultimate cause to be able to walk in the works God prepared you to walk in (Eph 2:9) through the Spirit. We can do all things through Christ who strenghtens me; apart from Christ we can do nothing (John 15). Therefore, it is by the grace of God that we do good works as a Christian and are rewarded in them. God actually rewards us for the work He has done in us. The term is grace upon grace. Do you think we are in agreement?

 

[Reformed]

Why is there now no condemnation for those who are in Christ?

God Bless,
Michael

As our substitute, Christ already paid the penalty for our sins which resulted in our condemnation.

God’s Everlasting Love

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be [8] against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. [9] 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Rom 8

 

[mikeledes]

As our substitute, Christ already paid the penalty for our sins which resulted in our condemnation.

When is a person released from condemnation and is this release eternal?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Reformed]

When is a person released from condemnation and is this release eternal?

God Bless,
Michael

For those who have been united with Christ (born from above), the answer is yes according to the Apostle Paul. Please see the Scripture posted above. Can Jesus save us from our future sins?

1 Timothy 1:15

The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.

 

[mikeledes]

For those who have been united with Christ (born from above), the answer is yes according to the Apostle Paul. Please see the Scripture posted above.

So it is our union with Christ that ensures that we will never be condemned and that union is a permanent one? In other words, it can never be undone? When are we saved from our future sins?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[cazayoux]

Do you think we are in agreement?

Regarding this scripture, I do think we are in agreement.

We still diverge on the assurance of salvation.
Even the scripture you shared, the word ‘if’ is there a couple of times.
I would still like to get your take on this.

michel

 

[Reformed]

Regarding this scripture, I do think we are in agreement.

We still diverge on the assurance of salvation.
Even the scripture you shared, the word ‘if’ is there a couple of times.
I would still like to get your take on this.

michel

Scripture exhorts us to test ourselves to see if we are truly in the faith. 1 John is a test to see if we have the marks of a converted Christian. Those who profess Christ and live in bondage of their old nature cannot have the assurance of those who are being progressively changed (struggling, trials and tribulation are good sign of being in the faith). If we do not struggle with the world, can we really be converted Christians? I think the if is essential and so are all the warnings; we do not want to deceive ourselves in we are a false professer in Christ.

 

[Cinette]

Complete that verse that you are quoting and you will get new insight. Protestants see salvation in the past, present and future tense. Actually, much of what Paul writes in regards to salvation is past tense. Please look for it in your reading of the Scriptures.

How can you say that Protestants see salvation in past present and future tense??? Protestants say “I am saved” “She is not saved” that kind of thing. Catholics say “I am saved, I am being saved and I will be saved” meaning that it is a journey that we struggle through…

 

[Reformed]

So it is our union with Christ that ensures that we will never be condemned and that union is a permanent one? In other words, it can never be undone? When are we saved from our future sins?

God Bless,
Michael

Yes, for those who have been united to Christ are adopted into the family of God on the basis of Christ alone. Since our adoption is on the grounds of the merit of Christ alone, who give us our perfect righteousness, we are secured in Christ. Think about it, as Christians we all continue to sin in this life and have degrees of unbelief which is sin. Christ rescues us from our past, present, and future sins.

 

[Reformed]

How can you say that Protestants see salvation in past present and future tense??? Protestants say “I am saved” “She is not saved” that kind of thing. Catholics say “I am saved, I am being saved and I will be saved” meaning that it is a journey that we struggle through…

Oh…a true Christian regardless of our religous affliation will experience our life as a spiritual pilgrimage which is quite a journey and adventure. After-all, we are the salmon swimming upstream against the flow of the world. Paul exhorts us to press on to our upward call in Christ Jesus. We struggle upward by the power of the Spirit in us. The grace of God is efectual for those who belong to God through Christ.

 

[Reformed]

Justification is an instantaneous legal act of God in which he (1) thinks of our sins as forgiven and Christ’s righteousness as belonging to us, and (2) declares us to be righteous in his sight.
Wayne Grudem Systematic Theology (pg. 723)

Scripture, when it treats of justification by faith, leads us in a very different direction. Turning away our view from our own works, it bids us look only to the mercy of God and the perfection of Christ. The order of justification which it sets before us is this: first, God of his mere gratuitous goodness is pleased to embrace the sinner, in whom he sees nothing that can move him to mercy but wretchedness, because he sees him altogether naked and destitute of good works. He, therefore, seeks the cause of kindness in himself, that thus he may affect the sinner by a sense of his goodness, and induce him, in distrust of his own works, to cast himself entirely upon his mercy for salvation. This is the meaning of faith by which the sinner comes into the possession of salvation, when, according to the doctrine of the Gospel, he perceives that he is reconciled by God; when, by the intercession of Christ, he obtains the pardon of his sins, and is justified; and, though renewed by the Spirit of God, considers that, instead of leaning on his own works, he must look solely to the righteousness which is treasured up for him in Christ.
John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion (3.11.16)

The phrase “in him” I have preferred to retain, rather than render it “by him” because it has in my opinion more expressiveness and force. For we are enriched in Christ, inasmuch as we are members of his body, and are engrafted into him: nay more, being made one with him, he makes us share with him in everything that he has received from the Father.
John Calvin Commentary on 1 Corinthians 1:5

 

[cazayoux]

This is the meaning of faith by which the sinner comes into the possession of salvation, when, according to the doctrine of the Gospel, **he perceives that he is reconciled by God; when, by the intercession of Christ, he obtains the pardon of his sins, **and is justified; and, though renewed by the Spirit of God, considers that, instead of leaning on his own works, he must look solely to the righteousness which is treasured up for him in Christ.
John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion (3.11.16)

‘according to Calvin’s ignoring parts of the doctrine of the Gospel’

How then, do I perceive that I am reconciled by God?

Then why-oh-why did Jesus *give *the power to forgive sins to men?

John 20:23
[23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.

michel

 

[Reformed]

‘according to Calvin’s ignoring parts of the doctrine of the Gospel’

How then, do I perceive that I am reconciled by God?

Then why-oh-why did Jesus *give *the power to forgive sins to men?

John 20:23
[23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.

michel

Through faith. Please give me your understanding of John 20:23? Are you saying that Catholic Priests can forgive sins?

 

[cazayoux]

Through faith. Please give me your understanding of John 20:23? Are you saying that Catholic Priests can forgive sins?

YES!! They are given the authority to do so by Jesus himself.

In Matthew chapter 9 Jesus tells a paralytic to get up, his sins are forgiven.
The crowd freaks, saying only God has the power to forgive sins.
The paralytic is healed and the crowd says…

Matt 9:8
[8] When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men.

Something very important to note here is the last word of that verse… it’s plural. Why is that?

John 20:21-23
[21] Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
[23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

As God sent Jesus, Jesus send the apostles, with the Holy Spirit and the authority to forgive sins.
Do you suggest the plain words of scripture do not mean men can forgive sins?

michel

 

[TriuneUnity]

Through faith. Please give me your understanding of John 20:23? Are you saying that Catholic Priests can forgive sins?

Honest question Reformed: How do you know you have faith?

 

[Reformed]

Honest question Reformed: How do you know you have faith?

Test yourself according to the Apostles Paul and John.

 

[Reformed]

YES!! They are given the authority to do so by Jesus himself.

In Matthew chapter 9 Jesus tells a paralytic to get up, his sins are forgiven.
The crowd freaks, saying only God has the power to forgive sins.
The paralytic is healed and the crowd says…

Matt 9:8
[8] When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men.

Something very important to note here is the last word of that verse… it’s plural. Why is that?

John 20:21-23
[21] Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
[23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

As God sent Jesus, Jesus send the apostles, with the Holy Spirit and the authority to forgive sins.
Do you suggest the plain words of scripture do not mean men can forgive sins?

michel

If I understand your posting, you are saying Priests have the authority to forgive sins, correct? Why can’t a sinner go straight to God through Christ to confess their sins instead?

 

[ralphinal]

I’ve been reading this thread and thinking. I am going to keep doing so after i respond to this one. I am still following the conversation.

If I understand your posting, you are saying Priests have the authority to forgive sins, correct? Why can’t a sinner go straight to God through Christ to confess their sins instead?

They can. It is just easier and better this way. Jesus set the system of confession up in order that men might have a better means. Now, why is this easier? Because we lie to ourselves. We justify. We make excuses. We can reason out any sin in the world. By having a priest guide us through our confession, we must confront each sin without our pride saying that it is not a sin. It is like having a personal trainer in the gym: you cannot cheat on your reps. Why is it better? Because we do not have to have perfect contrition. We can be sorry JUST because we do not want to go to hell. Perfect contrition is being sorry for the sole reason that the sin offends God. Most of us do not have that level of faith. The final reason is two-fold: we can see where to work and we KNOW that we are forgiven without fear of scrupulocity. Using the same confessor grants us spiritual accountability. He can see better what the issues are that keep us in the same sin. We can walk away knowing that those sins are GONE forever. These are two sides of one coin.