There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

[mikeledes]

Do you think Simon was born again after being baptized? I think he is evidence that water baptism does not regenerate a sinner.

Acts 8

Simon the Magician Believes

But there was a man named Simon, who had previously practiced magic in the city and amazed the people of Samaria, saying that he himself was somebody great. They all paid attention to him, from the least to the greatest, saying, “This man is the power of God that is called Great.” 11 And they paid attention to him because for a long time he had amazed them with his magic. 12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles [2] performed, he was amazed.

Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. 18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! 21 You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are in the gall [3] of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.” 24 And Simon answered, “Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”
25 Now when they had testified and spoken the word of the Lord, they returned to Jerusalem, preaching the gospel to many villages of the Samaritans.

If Simon Magus was a false professor when he was baptized, then obviously he could not be regenerated.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Reformed]

Then please explain 2 Peter 1:10

or, for you KJV fans out there

Pete seems to say that you can lose it if you are not careful. Paul talks about persevering until the end. Jesus talks about it being the narrow road. Why is it so hard to grasp that you can fall from grace?

Look at the text. The Apostle Peter is affirming that those who do these things will not fall away.

 

[mikeledes]

I have no issues with biblical infant baptism. I believe all covenant children should be baptized in infancy as a sign and a seal. However, infant baptismal regeneration is a false doctrine. Household baptism does not mean that the entire family is regenerated by the household baptism. Just like Israel, all the males were circumcised, but not all Israel were circumcised in the heart. The same is true with water baptism.

I would argue that the false doctrine would be the one that denies a biblical principle upheld for nearly 1, 500 years. I guess it took over a millenia for someone to finally figure it out.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[East_and_West]

How can you say Baptism saves you if you say people apostate that have been united to Christ? Please let me know your understanding of what we are being saved from and from whom? You cannot hinge your theology based on one Scripture. Roman Catholicism tries to do it with Matthew 16 for apostolic succession. And you try to use Peter 3:20-21 to support baptismal regeneration…ignoring the rest of scripture. Again, pleae let me know your understanding of what we are being saved from and from whom?

Are you kidding me? Saved from sin and you know it. Second, its not just one scripture. You have been provided with multiple scriptures that discuss the way in which baptism is invovled in our salvatin and you ignore them. Why? Its because you interperate the enitirety of scriptures through the lense of your man-made doctrine, sola fide. You can’t think outside of it. You even interperate scripture passages that flatly contradict it to be in agreement with it. This demonstrates that you are incapable of honestly approaching the Bible.

 

[Reformed]

Because it would much easier to live with the idea that no matter what a person does he will go to heaven. Honestly, its kinda childish. Its like, “I want my may no matter what!”

If you don’t see the bigger picture, the battle is for the truth of bibilcal doctrine of justification which is the heart of the gospel and the driving force of the Protestant Reformation. Nobody is preaching easy believism or a faith that is dead. James 2 is speaking of a dead faith, one that did not originate from God.

 

[Reformed]

Are you kidding me? Saved from sin and you know it. Second, its not just one scripture. You have been provided with multiple scriptures that discuss the way in which baptism is invovled in our salvatin and you ignore them. Why? Its because you interperate the enitirety of scriptures through the lense of your man-made doctrine, sola fide. You can’t think outside of it. You even interperate scripture passages that flatly contradict it to be in agreement with it. This demonstrates that you are incapable of honestly approaching the Bible.

Your answer is not what is revealed in Scripture. You have no idea what you are being saved from and from whom.

 

[East_and_West]

If you don’t see the bigger picture, the battle is for the truth of bibilcal doctrine of justification which is the heart of the gospel and the driving force of the Protestant Reformation.

A battle for a doctrine that completely unbiblical. Since you will find that it contradicts the word of God, then you will find that you are zealous for lie. For you, the lie is what at stake, the lie that makes protestants feel better. Perhaps this idea that no matter what they do, protestants get to go to heaven, helps you sleep at night.

 

[East_and_West]

Your answer is not what is revealed in Scripture. You have no idea what you are being saved from and from whom.

You have pretty much convinced me that you don’t any clue what you are talking about.

 

[ralphinal]

Look at the text. The Apostle Peter is affirming that those who do these things will not fall away.

So can you fall away or not? Yes or no. really simple question. No verses needed. Just a yes or a no

 

[Reformed]

If Simon Magus was a false professor when he was baptized, then obviously he could not be regenerated.

God Bless,
Michael

Here is the question. Are all who participate in water baptism regenerated with the sacrament of baptism? Was Simon Magus regenerated because of his baptism?

 

[East_and_West]

If you don’t see the bigger picture, the battle is for the truth of bibilcal doctrine of justification which is the heart of the gospel and the driving force of the Protestant Reformation. Nobody is preaching easy believism or a faith that is dead. James 2 is speaking of a dead faith, one that did not originate from God.

“See how a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” Hmm, sounds pretty Catholic. But I know you guys like your silly doctrines and will go through exigetical acrobatics to defend sola fide even though it is clearly and blatanly a lie. But hey, if that is what floats your boat. I guess, you can have all the fun you want.

 

[Reformed]

You have pretty much convinced me that you don’t any clue what you are talking about.

I’m sorry, you have no clue what you claim to be saved from.

 

[East_and_West]

I’m sorry, you have no clue what you claim to be saved from.

Well, since you are so enlightened by the heretics and blasphemers Luther and Calvin, go ahead and teach us.

 

[PerryJ]

How can you say Baptism saves you if you say people apostate that have been united to Christ? Please let me know your understanding of what we are being saved from and from whom? You cannot hinge your theology based on one Scripture. Roman Catholicism tries to do it with Matthew 16 for apostolic succession. And you try to use Peter 3:20-21 to support baptismal regeneration…ignoring the rest of scripture. Again, pleae let me know your understanding of what we are being saved from and from whom?

Don’t throw the red herring in the conversation. Many verses support Apostolic succession. I will leave it alone as it is not part of this thread.

 

[Reformed]

First, “personal experience” is the way liberals determine truth. It’s really all about how you “feel” about everything.

Second, Being a born again Christian does not automatically mean that you will love God after the experience. Again, it boils down to free will. Will you choose to use the gift after it is given. Many have recieved the grace of God in baptism and still some of those, when they grow older, choose not to use it. Don’t try to impose your man-made protestant ideology onto God.

Third, I used to attend a protestant Church and I knew many who were “saved”. What did I see? I saw fake/ridiculous smiles plastered on faces. It was soooooo fake. What do I see in my Catholic parish? People who genuinely love God. They might not “happy and clappy” 100% of the time but they struggle and strive. They live their love of God in the good and in the muck that life brings about. This is real love. A complete 180 from the protestant Churches that I have seen. Much more genuine than throwing one’s hands in the air and talking about how one is “saved” all the time. Now, as a Catholic, i hear about relying on God’s mercy, carrying our crosses, living the life when it feels good and when it doesn’t feel good.

Consider the scriptures:
“Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.”

and the clentcher:

“[In the ark] a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Pet. 3:20–21, emphasis added).

Baptism is what saves you! It is the appeal for a clear consciences becaue it washes away sin just as the waters of the flood washed away the evil doers. Its not just a symbol that washes away the dirt from one’s body.

Never forget, in all your debating, that the scriptures themselves state that Baptism “saves you”.

What is the difference between the New Covenant and the Old Covenant?

I Will Put My Spirit Within You

22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. 23 And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. 24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. [1] 28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. 30 I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord God; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel. - Ezekiel

 

[East_and_West]

What is the difference between the New Covenant and the Old Covenant?

I Will Put My Spirit Within You

22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. 23 And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. 24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25 I** will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.** 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. [1] 28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. 30 I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord God; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel. - Ezekiel

So you admitt that baptism is necessary to cleanse us of our sins. Well, at least now you are starting to be honest about your approach to scripture.

 

[Reformed]

Well, since you are so enlightened by the heretics and blasphemers Luther and Calvin, go ahead and teach us.

You still have no clue what we are being saved from and from whom.

 

[East_and_West]

You still have no clue what we are being saved from and from whom.

Well, i asked you master, enlighten us. Will you please? We poor Catholics are so lost in our 2000 year old errors given to us by Christ and his Apostles. We need men like you to enlighten us. Please, save us. Show us the way.

 

[Reformed]

Let’s all take a long break and try to reflect what we are saying to each other. I will try to wait until this evening to check this thread. Our Great Triune God is glorious and worthy of all of our praise and affection. God is neither Roman Catholic nor Protestant.

 

[Reformed]

Well, i asked you master, enlighten us. Will you please? We poor Catholics are so lost in our 2000 year old errors given to us by Christ and his Apostles. We need men like you to enlighten us. Please, save us. Show us the way.

You still have no clue what you are being saved from and from whom.