Please keep in mind that Augustine is a Catholic saint and that Pelagious is considered a heretic. This was true when the Pelagian heresy raged in the early 5th century; it was true when semi-Pelagianism later reared its ugly head; and it is true today.
The Catholic Church affirms the sovereignty of God and free will. Man cannot come to faith apart from the grace of God. He cannot do that by his natural powers. However, we believe that man acts under the influence of grace without losing free choice. For example, you believe that the Fall of man was decreed by God. And yet you also affirm that Adam had free will and freely chose to sin. So you do not see a contradition between the fulfillment of a Divine Decree in time and Adam’s freedom. Well, we do not see a contradiction between the fulfillment of God’s decrees in time concerning predestination and the freedom of the will.
I didn’t come to the scriptures with the presupposition of Catholicism. I was attending a protestant Church and believed in protestant dogma. But, in order to maintain a protestant faith I had to explain passage after passage from the bible away until I realized that the whole of the scriptures were against my protestant view point. It was then that I realized that the bible was Catholic.
LOL… I think Augustine was all over the place with his ideas. How else can Roman Catholics and Reformed Protestants quote him to support their views? You have to give Augustine credit, since God sure used him before the light of the Protestant Reformation.Anything that differs from the Calvinist understanding of salavtion is often labeled Pelagianism or Semi-Pelagianism.Since Augustine did not believe in perseverance of the saints, I guess he was Pelagian or Semi-Pelagian as well.
God Bless,
Michael
Charles Spurgeon called Calvinism but a nickname for biblical Christianity.And yet protestantism does not follow the scirptures at all… It is a man made system imposed upon the scripture. Calvisist interpretations of the scriptures are tantamount to theological rape.LOL… I think Augustine was all over the place with his ideas. How else can Roman Catholics and Reformed Protestants quote him to support their views? You have to give Augustine credit, since God sure used him before the light of the Protestant Reformation.
Have you tried to follow the typical Reformed claim. Great Reformed theologians such as Jonathan Edwards, George Whitfield, Charles Spurgeon, John Owen, and John Calvin embraced truths understood by Augustine and taught by the Apostle Paul and our Lord Jesus Christ. Calvinism’s strenght is the Holy Scirptures.
Official Roman Catholicism embraced predestination, double-predestation, and a special sustaining grace given only to the elect of God. I guess you can say that Rome teaches a form of theological rape too.
Augustine is not all over with his ideas. He obviously affirmed the truth of predestination - which is why Calvinists cite him so much - but did not believe that all of the justifed were included in those predestined to glory, which is the Catholic view. Augustine did not preach Calvinism.LOL… I think Augustine was all over the place with his ideas. How else can Roman Catholics and Reformed Protestants quote him to support their views? You have to give Augustine credit, since God sure used him before the light of the Protestant Reformation.
Have you tried to follow the typical Reformed claim. Great Reformed theologians such as Jonathan Edwards, George Whitfield, Charles Spurgeon, John Owen, and John Calvin embraced truths understood by Augustine and taught by the Apostle Paul and our Lord Jesus Christ. Calvinism’s strenght is the Holy Scirptures.
“The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox’s gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again.”—C. H. Spurgeon
Catholicism does not teach double predestination, nor the form of predestination that you espouse. For us its both providence and free will. For you its just providence. For armenians its pretty much just free will. So no. And I know you felt that that was a clever arguement, but it fell short of the mark of clever. Reminds me of when my freshmen students attempt to be funny. Very few of them are capable of this.Official Roman Catholicism embraced predestination, double-predestation, and a special sustaining grace given only to the elect of God. I guess you can say that Rome teaches a form of theological rape too.
While the Catholic Church does teach predestination, it does not teach an unconditional positive predestination to hell.Official Roman Catholicism embraced predestination, double-predestation, and a special sustaining grace given only to the elect of God. I guess you can say that Rome teaches a form of theological rape too.
I think you may not even know how loose the views of predestination and free will is within official Roman teaching. Consider the Predestination and Hitler thread for some official Roman Catholic teaching on the subject. I’m glad Rome allows breathing room on the topic.
Since we differ on how we interpret scripture it is no surprise that we would differ on how we interpret Augustine. Please note, however, that Augustine professed complete agreement with the Church and her authority. Calvin and the reformers made no such claims for themselves. Needless to say, the reformers had to claim scripture and ECF’s like Augustine as their own if they were to have even a shred of credibility.LOL… I think Augustine was all over the place with his ideas. How else can Roman Catholics and Reformed Protestants quote him to support their views? You have to give Augustine credit, since God sure used him before the light of the Protestant Reformation.
Have you tried to follow the typical Reformed claim. Great Reformed theologians such as Jonathan Edwards, George Whitfield, Charles Spurgeon, John Owen, and John Calvin embraced truths understood by Augustine and taught by the Apostle Paul and our Lord Jesus Christ. Calvinism’s strenght is the Holy Scirptures.
“The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox’s gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again.”— C. H. Spurgeon
spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm
Correct, because Augustine was a Lutheran!
Augustine submitted to the authority of the Church, believed Mary was sinless, believed in the REAL (not consubstantial) presences of Christ, was a bishop, believed in Apostolic succesion, etc, etc etc. He most certainly was not a Lutheran. Come now.
I knew Augustine would have been a Protestant Reformer.
It was the whole mistress thing that clued you in…that and the son born out of wedlock…
That’s what happens if by the providence of God if you were born prior to the Protestant Reformation. Augustine had a good excuse for not being Protestant. He would have led the charge of the Reformation. What’s your excuse of not being a Protestant…married into a Roman Catholic family maybe? … just kidding.
You definitely got me to laugh with that one. Thanks for injecting some humor.
My excuse? Well, protestanism is just NOT biblical. Sola Scriptura is not in the scriptures.That’s what happens if by the providence of God if you were born prior to the Protestant Reformation. Augustine had a good excuse for not being Protestant. He would have led the charge of the Reformation. What’s your excuse of not being a Protestant…married into a Roman Catholic family maybe? … just kidding.