E
East_and_West
Guest
Ok. I’ll have to check. Just don’t forget the moral sin part.
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
- Status
R
Reformed
Guest
What are we turning from and to whom or to what?
M
mikeledes
Guest
M
mikeledes
Guest
King Amaziah of Judah is described as follows:
2 Kings 14:3
3He did right in the sight of the LORD, yet not like David his father; he did according to all that Joash his father had done
2 Chronicles 25:2
2He did right in the sight of the LORD, yet not with a whole heart.
The fact that he is desrcibed as having done right *in the sight of God *indicates that what he did was pleasing in God’s eyes. The fact that it says “not with a whole heart” does not mean he was unrgenerate because that phrase was even used to describe King Solomon, and I doubt anyone would question he was regenerate:
1 Kings 11:4-6
4For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been.
5For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians and after Milcom the detestable idol of the Ammonites.
6Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not follow the LORD fully, as David his father had done.
Like King Solomon, King Amaziah turned away from God and went after other gods:
2 Chronicles 25:14-15
**14Now after Amaziah came from slaughtering the Edomites he brought the gods of the sons of Seir, set them up as his gods, bowed down before them and burned incense to them.
15Then the anger of the LORD burned against Amaziah, and He sent him a prophet who said to him, “Why have you sought the gods of the people who have not delivered their own people from your hand?” **
And the Bible strongly inidicates that he died in that state:
2 Chronicles 25:27
27From the time that Amaziah turned away from following the LORD they conspired against him in Jerusalem, and he fled to Lachish; but they sent after him to Lachish and killed him there.
So he went from doing that which was right in God’s sight to falling into the sin of idolatry.
God bless,
Michael
2 Kings 14:3
3He did right in the sight of the LORD, yet not like David his father; he did according to all that Joash his father had done
2 Chronicles 25:2
2He did right in the sight of the LORD, yet not with a whole heart.
The fact that he is desrcibed as having done right *in the sight of God *indicates that what he did was pleasing in God’s eyes. The fact that it says “not with a whole heart” does not mean he was unrgenerate because that phrase was even used to describe King Solomon, and I doubt anyone would question he was regenerate:
1 Kings 11:4-6
4For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been.
5For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians and after Milcom the detestable idol of the Ammonites.
6Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not follow the LORD fully, as David his father had done.
Like King Solomon, King Amaziah turned away from God and went after other gods:
2 Chronicles 25:14-15
**14Now after Amaziah came from slaughtering the Edomites he brought the gods of the sons of Seir, set them up as his gods, bowed down before them and burned incense to them.
15Then the anger of the LORD burned against Amaziah, and He sent him a prophet who said to him, “Why have you sought the gods of the people who have not delivered their own people from your hand?” **
And the Bible strongly inidicates that he died in that state:
2 Chronicles 25:27
27From the time that Amaziah turned away from following the LORD they conspired against him in Jerusalem, and he fled to Lachish; but they sent after him to Lachish and killed him there.
So he went from doing that which was right in God’s sight to falling into the sin of idolatry.
God bless,
Michael
R
Reformed
Guest
So far so good…
M
M0nkey
Guest
What about when we suffer? Can there be Joy? What does your Bible teach about that?
I’m sorry brother, but your theology on joy leads to a sugarcoating and superficial cheap appeal of our senses, this is not the real Gospel of repentance and long suffering.
If I’m following you correctly, you are referring to St. Paul’s letter: “I rejoice in the Lord always.” The Church teaches (and St. Paul teaches) that we are to join our sufferings to the sufferings our Lord endured for us on the cross. In this way, we can give meaning to our sufferings and draw into a closer relationship with Him. God sometimes allows afflictions to the body in order to heal diseases of the soul.
Christ also tells us to deny ourselves and take up our own cross daily, and come after Him in an act of love. This act of love is no fine appeal on the senses, but an act of sacrifice. St. Paul tells us to offer ourselves as a living sacrifice to God, and give of ourselves completely to Him.
I would beware with the prosperity Gospel people are buying into these days as it most definitely does not come from God nor His word. The true Gospel of our Lord is the Gospel of the weak, poor, and those who longsuffer.
The Catholic Church is the Church of love. This is only because our God, the God of Abraham, Jacob, Isaac and Joseph is the God of love. And what could be more love than a man who lays down His life for His friends?
R
Reformed
Guest
Suffering and trials are God’s way to transform us to the image of Christ. We are told to count it all joy when we face trials, tribulation, and suffering because we know all things work together for good for those who love God and called according to His purpose. It does not mean that we enjoy the trials, but we are told to count it all joy. There is a big difference. However, we need to see God as completely sovereign in all things to have faith in times of trials.
P
Pax
Guest
Please read over my post again and make a sincere effort to connect the dots.
Likewise, explain how the words of Jesus do not confirm what I have stated. Here are his words again.
John 8: 31-36
Then Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” They answered him, "We are descendants of Abraham and have never been slaves to anyone. **What do you mean by saying, “You will be made free’?” **Jesus answered them, **"Very truly, I tell you, everyone who commits sin is a slave **to sin. The slave does not have a permanent place in the household; the son has a place there forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
Jesus is asked what he means when he says “You will be made free.” He gives his answer by talking about “commiting sin” and being a slave to sin. Jesus says we will be free from this. Therefore, that freedom is from commiting sin.
This is obvious…why is it so difficult for you to understand?
M
moondweller
Guest
And yet John 20:23 states NOTHING about the condition of confessing sins, does it? You build a doctrine and a sacrament from silence. Nor is there ANY historical evidence, by example, that men confessed their sins to the Apostles to have them either retained or absolved.
However, we do know for a FACT that it was taught and proclaimed by the Apostles that sins are forgiven by God on a completely different basis:Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”
Acts 13:38 "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you",And the Apostolic doctrine of redemption in Christ included forgiveness of sins:Col 1:14 "in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.And the Apostle John writes:1 John 2:12 "I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake."Is John writing to those who just confessed to him and he subjectively determined they were truly repentant? I don’t think so, Mike. They believed in Christ and their sins were forgiven “for His name’s sake.”
R
Reformed
Guest
God forgives us for His name’s sake because we are “In Christ Jesus”. God even grants repentance to those who are united to Christ. God saves sinners first and foremost for His own glory and name’s sake.
1 Samuel 12:22
For the Lord will not forsake his people, for his great name’s sake, because it has pleased the Lord to make you a people for himself.
Isaiah 48
“For my name’s sake I defer my anger,
for the sake of my praise I restrain it for you,
that I may not cut you off.
Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver;
I have tried you in the furnace of affliction.
For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it,
for how should my name be profaned?
My glory I will not give to another
2 Peter 1:3
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence,
1 Samuel 12:22
For the Lord will not forsake his people, for his great name’s sake, because it has pleased the Lord to make you a people for himself.
Isaiah 48
“For my name’s sake I defer my anger,
for the sake of my praise I restrain it for you,
that I may not cut you off.
Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver;
I have tried you in the furnace of affliction.
For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it,
for how should my name be profaned?
My glory I will not give to another
2 Peter 1:3
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence,
L
LSK
Guest
To be ‘in Christ Jesus’ means more than simply having Faith…
The Traditional Doctrine of Justification includes the necessity of Baptism and the necessity of works. And while it is perfectly possible for Jesus Christ to act outside of time and space (afterall, He is God…God created Time and Space…in fact it is from this belief that the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception flows), it is necessary for us to demonstrate by our works that we are cooperating with the grace necessary for Justification…grace that is a result of the merits of Jesus’ Paschal Mystery.
CC 1987 – 1995 The Doctrine of Justification
The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism
CC 2006 – 2011 The Doctrine of Merit
The term “merit” refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality, which governs it.
God desires all to be saved. The Father, through Scripture, tells us how we are to be saved and become his adopted children. We receive the grace of the Holy Spirit, first through Baptism and later through the receiving of the Sacraments available to us, which forgives our sins, gives us God’s righteousness and justice and gives us HIS OWN LIFE!!
CC 654 We are justified so that we might become adopted children of God.
CC 1266 By Baptism, the Holy Trinity gives us the grace of justification.
What is necessary for all this to happen? FAITH
What is FAITH? It is a gift from God and unmerited by us. We do not earn Faith; rather, we receive Faith. The graces that flow from Faith and from Justification do so because of the merits gained by The Paschal Mystery.
Is Faith alone enough? NO!
James 2:18-26 Faith, without works, is barren, incomplete and dead.
Salvation, therefore, depends not only upon Faith and Justification but also on our COOPERATION WITH GOD’S GRACE.
2 Tim 4:7-8 Rv2: 23
Justification is the greatest work of God’s love, offering to us life in the family of the Trinity and true freedom.
God does not make anyone love Him or accept His gift of Faith.
SALVATION comes through Jesus’ saving actions in His Paschal Mystery.
The Traditional Doctrine of Justification includes the necessity of Baptism and the necessity of works. And while it is perfectly possible for Jesus Christ to act outside of time and space (afterall, He is God…God created Time and Space…in fact it is from this belief that the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception flows), it is necessary for us to demonstrate by our works that we are cooperating with the grace necessary for Justification…grace that is a result of the merits of Jesus’ Paschal Mystery.
CC 1987 – 1995 The Doctrine of Justification
The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism
CC 2006 – 2011 The Doctrine of Merit
The term “merit” refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality, which governs it.
God desires all to be saved. The Father, through Scripture, tells us how we are to be saved and become his adopted children. We receive the grace of the Holy Spirit, first through Baptism and later through the receiving of the Sacraments available to us, which forgives our sins, gives us God’s righteousness and justice and gives us HIS OWN LIFE!!
CC 654 We are justified so that we might become adopted children of God.
CC 1266 By Baptism, the Holy Trinity gives us the grace of justification.
What is necessary for all this to happen? FAITH
What is FAITH? It is a gift from God and unmerited by us. We do not earn Faith; rather, we receive Faith. The graces that flow from Faith and from Justification do so because of the merits gained by The Paschal Mystery.
Is Faith alone enough? NO!
James 2:18-26 Faith, without works, is barren, incomplete and dead.
Salvation, therefore, depends not only upon Faith and Justification but also on our COOPERATION WITH GOD’S GRACE.
2 Tim 4:7-8 Rv2: 23
Justification is the greatest work of God’s love, offering to us life in the family of the Trinity and true freedom.
God does not make anyone love Him or accept His gift of Faith.
SALVATION comes through Jesus’ saving actions in His Paschal Mystery.
R
Reformed
Guest
Thanks for sharing the Roman Catholic view of justification Leslie! The doctrine of justification according to the Scriptures is the essential issue of the Protestant Reformation and still is the central issue of our division. Biblical Christianity agrees that works are necessary evidence of being united to Christ, but our works are not the basis for our justification before God. James chapter 2 is as important as Ephesians 2:8-10. Do you see the difference between the Roman Catholic understanding of justification and the biblical position of justification? We can officially say that we have mutually exclusive gospels. If we make our works as the basis of our justification, we are in essence insulting God by saying that the work of Christ on our behalf is not enough. The CC will say personal merit is part of the basis of your salvation, does it not? I have been told that I must become a member of the Roman Catholic Church to be saved. Isn’t that a man-made work that I have to do to be saved? We are saved by grace alone through the instrument of faith alone on the basis of the person and work of Christ alone; therefore all the glory for saving wretched sinners goes to God alone. There is no boasting in the flesh with a proper understanding of justification and salvation. As a result, we grow in affection and love for God in what He has done for us in Christ. Full atonement is too good to be true, but with God it is true…to the praise of His glorious grace! As Christians in unity (John 17), we want to praise God together, don’t we?
P
PerryJ
Guest
Reformed,
I am not sure you understand our concept of works. We are justified via God. God infuses into us via the Holy Spirit and the Eucharist. We are being transformed by God. We are not transforming ourselves other than accepting the grace God is giving us. As we are changed (sanctified) we will do good works as God is changing us to be more righteous. Our works do not get us into heaven. Our works are necessary reflection of Christ giving us grace. If you do not have works than you are not accepting God’s grace and being sanctified.
P
Pax
Guest
Here is more scripture for your consideration by way of “various translations” that confirm my point. I hope these help.
– Living Bible
Romans 6:6 Your old evil desires were nailed to the cross with him; that part of you that loves to sin was crushed and fatally wounded, so that your sin-loving body is no longer under sin’s control, no longer needs to be a slave to sin;
– Simple English
Romans 6:6 You know that our sinful selves were nailed to the cross with Christ, so that the body of sin would lose its power, so that sin will no longer be used to make us slaves.
– Young’s Bible
Romans 6:6 this knowing, that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin;
– Darby’s Bible
Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with him, that the body of sin might be annulled, that we should no longer serve sin.
– Weymouth’s New Testament
Romans 6:6 This we know - that our old self was nailed to the cross with Him, in order that our sinful nature might be deprived of its power, so that we should no longer be the slaves of sin;
– Webster’s Bible
Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin may be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
– Living Bible
Romans 6:7 for when you are deadened to sin you are freed from all its allure and its power over you.
– Living Bible
Romans 6:14 Sin need never again be your master, for now you are no longer tied to the law where sin enslaves you, but you are free under God’s favor and mercy.
– New Jerusalem with Apocrypha
Romans 6:14 and then sin will no longer have any power over you, you are living not under law, but under grace.
– Living Bible
Romans 6:18 And now you are free from your old master, sin; and you have become slaves to your new master, righteousness.
– New Jerusalem with Apocrypha
Romans 6:18 and so, being freed from serving sin, you took uprightness as your master.
– Weymouth’s New Testament
Romans 6:18 You were set free from the tyranny of Sin, and became the bondservants of Righteousness –
– Living Bible
Romans 6:22 But now you are free from the power of sin and are slaves of God, and his benefits to you include holiness and everlasting life.
– Weymouth’s New Testament
Romans 6:22 But now that you have been set free from the tyranny of Sin, and have become the bondservants of God, you have your reward in being made holy, and you have the Life of the Ages as the final result.
– Living Bible
Romans 8:2 For the power of the life-giving Spirit–and this power is mine through Christ Jesus–has freed me from the vicious circle of sin and death.
The meanings of scripture are quite deep and have multiple levels. These translations should help you see what it means to be “freed from sin” in the fullest meaning of the term. Clearly, it includes freedom from commiting sin. Grace gives us power and enables us to do that which we could not do before.
It is just as scripture says, “…God…is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure,”[Phil 2:13] and
“Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to accomplish abundantly far more than all we can ask or imagine, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.”[Eph 3:20-21]
This is what God gives us and wants for us. This is true freedom and it is all by the power of God’s grace working within us.
R
Reformed
Guest
I believe I understand our differences. I don’t have issues with infused grace within the process of sanctification. However, our division is grounded in the forensic (legal declaration) view of justification according to Scripture. Scripture teaches that we are imputed the guilt and condemnation of Adam. In addition, Adam was a pattern of the 2nd Adam in the sense that Jesus’ righteousness is imputed (credited to our account) to us for our eternal justification before God. Christ is our substitute. We exchange our sins for His righteousness (2 Cor 5:21). Adam was also a pattern of the new Adam because both Adams represent groups of humanity (old humanity and new humanity). What Christ did in His perfect life and sacrifical death, He did for those who makeup the new humanity. What Adam did, He did for all humanity - curse and condemnation (Rom 5).
For those who have been justified by His blood, the rest of the Christian life is the process of being transformed to the image of Christ (sanctification) and strengthened by the two sacraments, the Word, prayer, etc. However, our standing before God is alway by the perfect righteousness of Christ alone (justification). Please consider Romans 5.
Romans 5
Peace with God Through Faith
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.6
For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
M
mikeledes
Guest
Again, the passage does not say “You proclaim forgiveness”, MD, it says you forgive. The ones identified as doing the forgiving are the apostles. Secondly, if the apostles are forgiving sins in Jesus’s name, this presupposes confession of those sins:
1 John 1:9
9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness
Proverbs 28:13
**13He who conceals his transgressions will not prosper,
But he who confesses and forsakes them will find compassion. **
Moreover, only through confession could the apostles know whether to grant absolution (forgive sins) or withhold it (retain sins). You have yet to explain how the apostles can retain sins.
God Bless,
Michael
R
Reformed
Guest
Good morning Michael. Does your peace with God fluctuate up and down based on how you are personally doing at the moment? If we are honest, all Christians struggle in this world.
If the Eucharist is the key to growing, why don’t Catholics partake in the Eucharist three times a day, seven days a week? If the Catholic Church dispenses the grace of God, why not live next to the Catholic Church and hang out there 24/7/365 days? The Christian life is one of repentance and faith. But when we repent, where do we turn to and what is our faith based on?
P
Pax
Guest
Catholics do not make works the basis of our justification. I think you really know better, and realize that this is not what we believe. No one is saying that the work of Christ is not enough. Instead, it is crucial to understand the meaning of covenant as it applies to Jesus work of redemption. Even non-Catholics appreciate this in so far as faith is concerned. Your logic would, otherwise, also have to apply to “faith alone” vis-a-vis your view of Christ’s work on the cross as being insufficient.
You have no problem believing that a person must be a Christian believer in order to be saved, yet you have a problem understanding why the Church has taught that you must be a believing member of Christ’s Church in order to be saved. Likewise, you have a very underdeveloped understanding of what the Church is saying and has stated concerning this point.
Remember, at one time there was but one Christian Church and it was the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church was the exclusive Christian body of believers. Now, we are, unfortunately, terribly divided. I would recommend going to Catholic sources to understand the circumstances and environment in which the Church made the statement that “there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church” and to also read what the Church says now hundreds of years later. The statements do not contradict but, instead, complement one another. If you thoroughly study the Catholic position on this from Catholic sources, you will understand and appreciate exactly what the Church is teaching and you will not be receiving a second or third hand-hearsay polemic from someone that doesn’t grasp the truth of the matter.
P
PerryJ
Guest
Two sacraments? You do not believe baptism is a sacrament?
You think reading the Bible is a sacrament?
The verse does not conflict with our belief?
M
mikeledes
Guest
I don’t see the difference because they’re both the same!
BTW, Calvinist Dr. Sam Storm of Enjoying God Ministris provides a biased history of the doctrine of justification, but even he can’t deny that the Protestant understanding of justification makes it’s first appearance in Christian history with Martin Luther.
enjoyinggodministries.com/article/16-the-doctrine-of-justification/
God Bless,
Michael
- Status