There is too much Law on these boards

[Prieldedi]

Why is it that every other thread throughout the Catholic forums is titled something like,

“Is XYZ a sin?” or “Is ABC a mortal or venial sin?” or “Would it be sinful if I XYZ?”

The responses then attempt to parse out what various church fathers think about it, what different councils think, what Scripture teaches, etc, to determine the extent of an action’s sinfulness and the eternal implications thereof.

But I ask: Where is the Gospel? Where is the forgiveness of sins? Where is the comfort that our Lord Jesus provides to the conscience of the repentant sinner who believes in Him?

Please, when responding to these threads, remember that WHATEVER sin the poster is discussing, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, died for it. And please remind the poster of that. I’m not saying that we shouldn’t be terrified on account of our sins, but as we learn in Homiletics class, the Gospel MUST predominate. Chances are, if a sinner is asking about their sin at all, they’re probably penitent. If they weren’t, and they didn’t care, they wouldn’t bother asking. Such threads can provide an excellent opportunity to remind (or inform) the poster of the forgiveness of sins granted to us by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

As Martin Luther (I know how much Catholics love him! ) said:

“This one and firm rock, which we call the doctrine of justification…is the chief article of the whole Christian doctrine, which comprehends the understanding of all godliness…this doctrine is the articulus stantis et cadentis ecclesiae …if this article stands, the Church stands; if it falls, the Church falls.”

We ask because we follow the Bible, contrary to what many non Catholics believe we don’t do.

John 20:23, “for those whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven; for those whose sins you retain, they are retained.”

Why would Jesus say that to the Apostles right after His resurrection? Why command them to “forgive” and “retain” if He knew that He had already died for the sins of the world? Because Jesus did not left the forgiveness of sins as an act between ourselves and God, in a one on one conversation between us and God. If that was the case, He would’ve not asked the Apostles “to forgive” or “to retain” sins.

The reason to ask if “xyz” is a sin is because we can offend God and not know we are doing it. We Catholics (and every Christian in fact) must confess our sins, we must know for sure they are sins, and we must do it in accordance to John 20:23, we must confess it to another man (priest) who will “forgive” or “retain” them. There are things we do that are not so clear to us if they are sins or not, if they offend God or not. Of course that we know the basic sins (kill, steal, adultery, fornication, greed, etc). But in an ever changing world, with “advancements” in technology, science, entertainment, you name it… there are things that seem perfectly normal, but as Catholics if we are not sure we must ask to know if they are sins or not.

One simple example: watching and enjoying a show in which a comedian is mocking God, Jesus, the Apostles, Christians in general… all in a very “civilized and professional” manner. What do you say? No big deal here? How can we enjoy this mockery of Jesus, laugh our hearts out, and believe there is nothing wrong with it just because it’s meant to be a joke? How will God see us when we enjoy these shows? Everyone will say “It’s just a joke, it’s just a show!” But, is it for God? And what if it isn’t?

These are the questions we ask. In my example, if we enjoy them, are we offending God? And what do we call an offense to God? SIN. We must know, so we ask. The worst question is the one you don’t ask. Thanks for asking.

God bless you

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I refer you to my earlier post on this thread:

I don’t see any reason to be rude here. I don’t understand why the forgiveness of sins is so offensive to everyone. What is the point of Christianity if all we ever talk about is the Law? What did Jesus fundamentally change? Did He just trade the Law of Moses for His Law instead? Paul doesn’t think so.

Once again, I refer you to my earlier post. I do think it’s important to hash out what’s sin and what isn’t. ALL I’m saying is that the penitent sinner needs to be reminded of the grace and forgiveness our Father offers us for the sake of His Son, Jesus Christ. I don’t care if you’re Catholic, Methodist, Anglican, or Lutheran, Jesus died on the cross for your sins, and to ignore that and just discuss our differing degrees of sin is to become a Pharisee. We all know how much Jesus liked their legalism.

Nominefili,

Your posts have a lot of merit and truth in them. Some people want to focus 24/7 on the law, the catechism, what other Catholics are or are NOT doing right, and how one person is beaming with pride and self-love about he is following all the rules while the other Catholic who isn’t is a “cafeteria Catholic” who is not as good a Catholic, inferior. You hear day in and day out about who isn’t Catholic enough and who is. I grow wearing of hearing the whole, “I do NFP, I go to daily Mass, I go to confession every week, I pray the rosary every night, I pray for the pope” and then they proceed to rip on people who walk out early from communion or who miss Mass or who use birth control or the folks who vote for Obama, you name it.

It’d be nice if we’d focus on the fact we are given God’s merciful grace and He loves us so deeply that He has given us jusification through faith to follow Him despite our weak human failings. I wish we could all have more humility and cut the pharisaic theatrics. You’re right. How much do we talk about Our Lord and how much do we talk in here about the Church? I hear more about the Church than I do Christ. Ecclesiology is an interest of mine and important to me but look how far we’ve come from just talking about Jesus of Nazareth and the Gospels to this constant, narrow focus on ecclesiology, rules, catechesis, and sticking to the rule book. How arrogant it must sound to the Lord I think sometimes. Some people seem to almost dislike the thought of justification through faith and grace and they dig for passages that tout works, thinking their works are the primary mover. I guess Romans eludes some people…

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

This isn’t what the CCC would say. Sin wasn’t a surprise to God.

I agree. I was asking his opinion.

If sin wasn’t a surprise, then you can’t say that God is just for condemning individuals exclusively on the basis of original sin, which was part of his plan from the beginning.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

The origin of evil is a mystery unless you want to give me your beliefs on the origin of evil. We already had Satan in the garden during the fall of mankind. So, why did Lucifier fall if God created him? God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all; therefore, God is not the author of evil.

I believe that evil, ie. bad choices, is the inevitable by-product of free will.

How can a free creature exist who is unable to make the wrong choice?

 

[PaulDupre]

The origin of evil is a mystery unless you want to give me your beliefs on the origin of evil. We already had Satan in the garden during the fall of mankind. So, why did Lucifier fall if God created him? God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all; therefore, God is not the author of evil.

Define “evil” please. Once you do, you will see that this discussion is moot.

 

[kalt]

Why is it that every other thread throughout the Catholic forums is titled something like,

“Is XYZ a sin?” or “Is ABC a mortal or venial sin?” or “Would it be sinful if I XYZ?”

The responses then attempt to parse out what various church fathers think about it, what different councils think, what Scripture teaches, etc, to determine the extent of an action’s sinfulness and the eternal implications thereof.

But I ask: Where is the Gospel? Where is the forgiveness of sins? Where is the comfort that our Lord Jesus provides to the conscience of the repentant sinner who believes in Him?

Please, when responding to these threads, remember that WHATEVER sin the poster is discussing, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, died for it. And please remind the poster of that. I’m not saying that we shouldn’t be terrified on account of our sins, but as we learn in Homiletics class, the Gospel MUST predominate. Chances are, if a sinner is asking about their sin at all, they’re probably penitent. If they weren’t, and they didn’t care, they wouldn’t bother asking. Such threads can provide an excellent opportunity to remind (or inform) the poster of the forgiveness of sins granted to us by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

As Martin Luther (I know how much Catholics love him! ) said:

“This one and firm rock, which we call the doctrine of justification…is the chief article of the whole Christian doctrine, which comprehends the understanding of all godliness…this doctrine is the articulus stantis et cadentis ecclesiae …if this article stands, the Church stands; if it falls, the Church falls.”

Why shouldn’t we discuss the sin? IMO, there is far too much whitewashing regarding sin today. “They” talk about “Catholic guilt” as if it were prevelant. How much guilt could Americans be feeling and still have a society such as it is - nearly 40% of children born outside of marriage, I think (someone correct if that is wrong), how many abortions? divorces? murders? theft (white collar included)? cheating?

Lord, it sure looks like very few are feeling guilty about the sins they commit. I don’t thiink we have to worry about dissecting this issue. It seems that many are very aware that God forgives all sins. It seems that very few worry at all about what they do.

My pet peeve is people who have kids and get divorced. They justify it by saying that it’s “good” for the kids. And you want us to emphasize to people like this that God forgives their sins?! It seems that they’ve worked that all out before they commit the sin, and commit the sin anyway!

 

[Nominefili]

My pet peeve is people who have kids and get divorced. They justify it by saying that it’s “good” for the kids. And you want us to emphasize to people like this that God forgives their sins?! It seems that they’ve worked that all out before they commit the sin, and commit the sin anyway!

No, I want you to admonish them for their sin, in Christian love, and then assure them of Christ’s forgiveness. If the Son of God can forgive them and died for them, who are you to decide that they don’t deserve to hear the Gospel because it’s your ‘pet peeve?’ This language is exactly what I’m talking about. It makes me sad.

 

[spoiltvictorian]

I agree. I was asking his opinion.

If sin wasn’t a surprise, then you can’t say that God is just for condemning individuals exclusively on the basis of original sin, which was part of his plan from the beginning.

But…isn’t that what God does? We are all damned because of Adam and conceived in sin. It seems unfair to be damned for something one’s gggggggggggg-great grandfather did, but we can’t get into Heaven with stained souls even if we did somehow manage to never act on the impulses of that stain. Not that such a person has ever existed. (It seems unfair, but I believe it is just by faith. I accept there are things I don’t understand about the way God designed the influences of ancestors.)

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

But…isn’t that what God does? We are all damned because of Adam and conceived in sin. It seems unfair to be damned for something one’s gggggggggggg-great grandfather did, but we can’t get into Heaven with stained souls even if we did somehow manage to never act on the impulses of that stain. Not that such a person has ever existed. (It seems unfair, but I believe it is just by faith. I accept there are things I don’t understand about the way God designed the influences of ancestors.)

I don’t believe that God condemns us soley for original sin.

I believe this:

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:621

 

[spoiltvictorian]

I don’t believe that God condemns us soley for original sin.

I believe this:

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:621

I don’t think the damnable-ness of our original sin has anything to do with predestination. I agree with that CCC quote, but even if I were a Molinist or an Arminian it would be possible for me to believe that original sin itself, the fomes, is enough to deny us Heaven.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I don’t think the damnable-ness of our original sin has anything to do with predestination. I agree with that CCC quote, but even if I were a Molinist or an Arminian it would be possible for me to believe that original sin itself, the fomes, is enough to deny us Heaven.

I’m having trouble reconciling the statement above with you previous statement here:

But…isn’t that what God does? We are all damned because of Adam and conceived in sin. It seems unfair to be damned for something one’s gggggggggggg-great grandfather did, but we can’t get into Heaven with stained souls even if we did somehow manage to never act on the impulses of that stain. Not that such a person has ever existed. (It seems unfair, but I believe it is just by faith. I accept there are things I don’t understand about the way God designed the influences of ancestors.)

These two statements seem to be in conflict, but I’m probably missing something.

Thanks.

 

[spoiltvictorian]

I’m having trouble reconciling the statement above with you previous statement here:

These two statements seem to be in conflict, but I’m probably missing something.

Thanks.

Two issues:

1. Did God predestine us to damnation? I say no - I agree with the CCC quote.
2. Does our original sin damn us? That’s what I’m asking about. This doesn’t have anything to do with predestination. Even in a purely free-will universe, Adam’s sin could still have caused us all to go to hell just by virtue of being born under Adam with the stain of original sin. Yes, I would have no control over being born with original sin, but that’s not because of predestination, it’s because of the natural, free-will consequences of family trees. So the second question has nothing to do with predestination.

 

[josie_L]

But - how is there forgiveness of sins, when people are told in Matt.5, “Be perfect as your father in Heaven is perfect” ? Since man is born corrupt and at enmity with God, and does not cease to be a sinner after justification, how are those words not unspeakably cruel ? We might as well be told to fetch the moon from heaven as to be perfect. Where is the Gospel in that ? The trouble is simple - the words of Christ are as deadly to us as the Law was to Paul: for they too reveal our sinfulness, also without providing a remedy.​

There is no Good News - the requirements of Christ bring knowledge of sin, and condemnation, and Hell-fire at the end. What we need is a Gospel to mend the present one, and a new Church, to mend the 2,000 years of Christian evil that have passed. For what is the history of those years, if not the proof of the triumph of Satan and the spread of his empire ? Christians are worse than wolves - they have filled the rearth with blood and slaughter. It is Christianity that is the Great Whore drunk on the blood of men.

• How is Christianity not Satanic ?
• Its fruits are evil; it is a deadly plague. Can you deny any of this ?
• Are slavery and war the will of God ? Which Church has not engaged in these or other evils ?
• The record of Christianity shows it is from Hell. If any other body had comitted the horrors of which Christians have been guilty, that body would be called evil, and rightly so: how then is Christianity not evil ?
• And how can such abominations be forgiven ? How is it not immoral to forgive such wickedness ?

This is absolutely insulting to Jesus, Gottle of Geer as your words are no less hateful/arrogant than the people/institutions/religion which you castigate.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Two issues:

1. Did God predestine us to damnation? I say no - I agree with the CCC quote.
2. Does our original sin damn us? That’s what I’m asking about. This doesn’t have anything to do with predestination. Even in a purely free-will universe, Adam’s sin could still have caused us all to go to hell just by virtue of being born under Adam with the stain of original sin. Yes, I would have no control over being born with original sin, but that’s not because of predestination, it’s because of the natural, free-will consequences of family trees. So the second question has nothing to do with predestination.

We are back to the Fall. If we agree that the Fall was not a surprise to God, then it must have been part of his plan for creation.

If original sin alone damns us, then this is part of God’s plan, and therefore he predestined some people to Hell.

 

[spoiltvictorian]

We are back to the Fall. If we agree that the Fall was not a surprise to God, then it must have been part of his plan for creation.

If original sin alone damns us, then this is part of God’s plan, and therefore he predestined some people to Hell.

Yes, but here’s my main question, I suppose. Parents, especially fathers, make decisions for their entire families. Don’t you think Adam made the damning decision only Christ can save us from for his whole family, that is, every human? This isn’t about predestination. It’s about whether Adam’s free will alone got us into this mess or whether we must also freely sin to join those who deserve hell.

 

[2nd_Adam]

We are back to the Fall. If we agree that the Fall was not a surprise to God, then it must have been part of his plan for creation.

If original sin alone damns us, then this is part of God’s plan, and therefore he predestined some people to Hell.

I think original sin is enough to send us to Hell according to the Catholic Church. If not, why the urgency of infant baptism, removing the guilt of original sin, bringing that baptized infant in a justified state before a Holy God? I believe we are all condemned in Adam, and all non-elect infants who die are lost for eternity. Who are the elect infants, that I cannot answer. Remember, in the OT that God commanded in His holy judgement, that Israel was to destroy men, women and children.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I think original sin is enough to send us to Hell according to the Catholic Church. If not, why the urgency of infant baptism, removing the guilt of original sin, bringing that baptized infant in a justified state before a Holy God? I believe we are all condemned in Adam, and all non-elect infants who die are lost for eternity. Who are the elect infants, that I cannot answer. Remember, in the OT that God commanded in His holy judgement, that Israel was to destroy men, women and children.

Here’s the Catholic take:

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:621

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Yes, but here’s my main question, I suppose. Parents, especially fathers, make decisions for their entire families. Don’t you think Adam made the damning decision only Christ can save us from for his whole family, that is, every human? This isn’t about predestination. It’s about whether Adam’s free will alone got us into this mess or whether we must also freely sin to join those who deserve hell.

It is about predestination.

Is out fate determined before our birth, regardless of our decisions?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Here’s the Catholic take:

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:621

Could you please post the CC on infant baptism and original sin with infant baptism?

 

[spoiltvictorian]

It is about predestination.

Is out fate determined before our birth, regardless of our decisions?

Don’t you understand there is a difference between God predestining man and man predestining man?