There's no OSAS

[jcoldc]

The real reason you must reject OSAS is because it makes a person unable to EARN some part of their salvation by works.

No, I think it’s rejected because it’s very dangerous to assume you are saved, no matter how you live your life.

A person already saved can not earn that free gift of salvation anymore.

I thought you said before that only God can determine who is saved. It’s sounding like you’re making the argument that you know you already are saved.

A person already saved has a very different motivation to do the resulting works of true faith, which are only possible after having received the free gift of eternal salvation.

Is it possible that someone who has been saved, will be motivated to do the “resulting works of true faith”, because they want to feel like they know they are saved, and look to others like they are actually saved? (Rather than those who were saved, but never really saved to begin with.) Because it seems as though the distinction is not whether they really claimed Jesus as their Lord and Savior, but rather their resulting works, after the fact, that determine whether or not they are actually saved.

 

[distracted]

Your claim that my rejection of the R. Catholic C. means I reject the True Church that the Holy Spirit …can not be supported by Scripture. It is just not there in the Bible: (the Roman Catholic Church).

It IS in the Bible… (and in other historical documents which you do not accept, apparently. So how do you know the Bible can be accepted and not other writings…?)…
True, the word Catholic is not (explicitly) in the Bible but neither is the term “Accept Christ as your personal savior”…

Your quote <…but Jesus said to be born again of water & the Holy Spirit (baptism) > is a deliberate misquoting of Scripture to twist the meaning of Jesus’ words.

Deliberate? Oh, so now you are clairavoyant and know my intentions?

I was not misquoting this, “deliberately” or otherwise… As you say, Scripture says:

(John 3:5) "Jesus answered, ‘Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’. "

You will notice that Jesus did not say “born again” of water, but rather “born” of water.
We must be first “born of the flesh” , which corresponds to being “born of water”. The water is the natural physical part of the birth process.

So you are saying that unborn children who die in the womb are doomed to eternal Hell?

And why would Jesus mention somtehing as mundane as physical birth, when it is assumed that everyone gets into this world the same way??

“Born of water” may also have some reference to God’s Word,

May??? Hmmm…

All i can say is that i have studied Catholicism in depth, i have studied Church history in depth and i have lived as a Roman Catholic all my life, been devout for many years… I have also been through the infilling of the Holy Spirit (what you call being “born again”)…

You can, apparently, only claim one of those…

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by JRKH
However it is my intention to do all that I can to be worthy of His mercy.

I really don’t know what you are driving at here. I didn’t say “merit”.
It just seems that we are arguing semantics

Peace
James

 

[cyberjacques]

It would be far better to simply praise, thank, obey, and worship our Mercifully Gracious God Who is the only One Worthy and Good.

Hmm, praise, thanks, obedience, and worship. What would these be classified as other than works of faith? I think you just refuted your own position. You’re finally starting to get it, praise be to God!

 

[DCD]

A person who continues to make statements that Catholics believe in works salvation after they have been corrected, would they be commiting the third sin against the Holy Spirit? Impugning the known truth?

Peace,
DCD

 

[brkn1]

Hmm, praise, thanks, obedience, and worship. What would these be classified as other than works of faith? I think you just refuted your own position. You’re finally starting to get it, praise be to God!

The reason or motivation why a OSAS person does those works of faith are not the same as those who consider such works as being a part of “trying to at least partly make themselves worthy” of the already free gift of salvation.
Doing good works of faith out of gratitude and love for our Saviour is not at all the same as doing those works as part of qualifying ourselves to “maybe be saved in the end”.

Those not certain of being saved, can only be thankful for the opportunity of maybe getting saved by grace in the end. The joy of having a present eternal salvation can not exist, since they are never sure of that possession in this life. Death still holds a possible “sting” to the uncertain and they can not honestly say, “O death, where is thy sting?” in this life, as Paul did.

 

[po18guy]

Note: Red font is my questions/comments/emphasis.

There is a natural order of our entrance into the kingdom of God. We must be first “born of the flesh” , which corresponds to being “born of water”.(Scripture please!) The water is the natural physical part of the birth process.

This belief goes way back. Clear back to 1890s America. It appeared in the same nation, in the same century as the Mormon church, the Seventh Day Adventist church and the Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is absolutely not scriptural! My witness?

John 3:3-5 (New International Version)<–Protestant bible FYI In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.” Born again is there.
“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!” Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.”
Footnotes: John 3:3 Or born from above; also in verse 7.

Sorry, but amniotic fluid “baptism” is not Christ’s teaching. Please explain why Jesus Himself then baptized:

John 3:22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized.

The second birth, which is the spiritual birth (the born again birth), follows by the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus further explains how the “born again” birth is completely of the work and will of the Spirit in the next two verses. “Born of water” may also have some reference(What?) to God’s Word, which is referred to as “water”, but the context of how Jesus presented the flesh to the spirit, suggests(Do not bet your soul on this) that the water is not the element that causes any of the “born again” process. It is only the Holy Spirit that effects that work.

This is simply grotesque! Peter warned of those twisting scripture in 2 Peter 3:16. What a prophet! And, good reading. Here’s how to receive the Holy Spirit:

Acts 8:12-17 (New International Version)
But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw. When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

This is how you receive the Holy Spirit. The exact process that is known today as the Sacrament of Confirmation. Baptism and Confirmation. The true, time tested and unchanged route to the Body of Christ. Do not be fooled by imitations or inventions! Folks, your immortal soul is at stake here! Choose wisely.

May the peace of Christ, Who baptized, be with all of you.

 

[brkn1]

Note: Red font is my questions/comments/emphasis. This belief goes way back. Clear back to 1890s America. It appeared in the same nation, in the same century as the Mormon church, the Seventh Day Adventist church and the Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is absolutely not scriptural! My witness?

John 3:3-5 (New International Version)<–Protestant bible FYI In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.” Born again is there.
"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!” Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit."
Footnotes: John 3:3 Or born from above; also in verse 7.

Sorry, but amniotic fluid “baptism” is not Christ’s teaching. Please explain why Jesus Himself then baptized:

John 3:22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized.

This is simply grotesque! Peter warned of those twisting scripture in 2 Peter 3:16. What a prophet! And, good reading. Here’s how to receive the Holy Spirit:

Acts 8:12-17 (New International Version)
But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw. When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

This is how you receive the Holy Spirit. The exact process that is known today as the Sacrament of Confirmation. Baptism and Confirmation. The true, time tested and unchanged route to the Body of Christ. Do not be fooled by imitations or inventions! Folks, your immortal soul is at stake here! Choose wisely.

May the peace of Christ, Who baptized, be with all of you.

“Time tested” is quite a claim. I thought you folks were not sure about anyone’s eventual salvation (except Mary) and only God knew the final results of your sacraments. I was told it was something due to your “humility” that you were never sure of the result, but here you now claim a “time tested” good result. Where is all that humility now?

 

[po18guy]

“Time tested” is quite a claim. I thought you folks were not sure about anyone’s eventual salvation (except Mary) and only God knew the final results of your sacraments. I was told it was something due to your “humility” that you were never sure of the result, but here you now claim a “time tested” good result. Where is all that humility now?

Confidence can appear as arrogance. I am certainly a worse sinner than you. We have salvation to a moral certainty. This means that God always delievers on His promises. But, through sin, you can lose God’s grace, like Judas did. That is why we must “persevere to the end” to be saved. Christ said so. Catholics believe it. The “time tested” you refer to is simply the methods used in the early church that have been carried forward, at a price in blood, to today.

Please don’t tell me you prefer the profit-driven writings of men to Holy Scripture, which clearly spells out the “normative” path to salvation? I just use the bible for my information. Does this seem strange for a Catholic?

Brother, I think you need to lighten up a bit, or you’ll never get as old as I am! You’re a victim of private interpretation of scripture, that’s all. Thousands of denominations disagree with you, but you come here and only bag on the Catholics. How come?

I bet my eternal soul on the early church as established by Christ. I trust not only His Divine words from scripture, but the Sacred Traditions He established. Believe it or not, folks a lot smarter than either of us have tested this over the centuries and found nothing better.

That’s good enough for me. I was born again through immersion in water. I received the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands, just like Peter and John did in Acts. What could be better than that? I invite you to learn more about the church you have been taught to dislike.

 

[JRKH]

(Snip)
I bet my eternal soul on the early church as established by Christ. I trust not only His Divine words from scripture, but the Sacred Traditions He established. Believe it or not, folks a lot smarter than either of us have tested this over the centuries and found nothing better.

That’s good enough for me. I was born again through immersion in water. I received the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands, just like Peter and John did in Acts. What could be better than that? I invite you to learn more about the church you have been taught to dislike.

Amen to this.
Through thousands of years of heresy, political upheaval, plague, famine, persecution and scandal the Catholic Church, Christ’s Church, is still here.
Still preaching the origional and true Gospel, Faith, and Grace.

Peace
James

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Brkn, can you respond to this, that the Holy Spirit was granted ONLY upon the laying on of hands.

 

[VociMike]

OSAS believers, I have a simple question. Is obedience to God necessary for your salvation? Will you (never mind anybody else, just you) be saved if you are not obedient to God? I am not talking here about perfect obedience which is of course impossible.

 

[wisdomseeker]

But don’t you also believe that if you don’t obey “the laws” of the Church, you won’t go to heaven? If you don’t “work” in the way mentioned, you won’t go to heaven? If so, your getting to heaven will ultimately depend on your works, not on the Work of Christ at Calvary to pay for your sins. So, when do you receive God’s free gift of eternal life? Only after you have worked for it, and died in a state of working for it?

**Your timeline leaves out the original intention of those “radicals” or Reformers—to correct abusive, unbiblical practices of “the Church” like selling indulgences, etc. Luther, a good priest, never intended to break away from “the Church.” He was thrown out when he did not recant his assertions which were based on biblical truth and which were rejected by prideful Catholic leaders. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The Catholic leaders had absolute power and they were absolutely corrupted by it. The only thing that has changed since then in the CC is the loss of that absolute power, politically, though they still maintain spiritual power over its members to say when and if and how they may have their sins forgiven and be able to enter heaven. The very notion that there is a “treasury” from which the CC dispenses grace and indulgences is absurd; if such existed and the CC really cared about souls suffering in purgatory (if it existed), it would immediately dispense the entire treasury if necessary to grant relief and release of those souls to heaven. There would BE no souls in purgatory if the CC really cared about them and the suffering that they supposedly have to endure to pay for their sins (another unbiblical notion).

I praise God for those “radicals” who sought to follow biblical truth, even to the point of certain death at the hands of “the Church” Christ supposedly founded.**

**For sola scripture people where is that in the Bible?
where does it say that if any man sins in the Church built by Christ, the Church will dissapear and no longer is a Church?
i believe when judas sinned another took his office.

where does it say that ML had the power to form another religion? did ML had the power to declare the CC an apostate? when Jesus Himself promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church.

David sinned many ttimes, did God declared Israel and apostate or He sent His Son to save Israel instead?

I think we need to have a thread on the concept of a Church. something like what is a Church according to what Jesus intended it to be.**

 

[JRKH]

This thread is approaching 300 posts and certain things are clear.
Those who hold to OSAS have posted Bible verses supporting OSAS.
Those who oppose OSAS have posted Bible verses opposing OSAS.
Since the Bible cannot contradict itself, OSAS must be flawed.

Those who hold that Catholics believe in “works” salvation have ignored every effort by the Catholics here to make clear that the Church DOES NOT TEACH A WORKS BASED SALVATION.

So what is left? Semantics and rediculous details which are the arguments of people whose basic positions are weak. This is a sin of pride.

Ever siince the Protestant Revolution took hold, and tore the Bible away from Christ’s Church, ever new and disturbing “revelations”, and “understandings” have been put forth. Denominations have split and split again - thousands of them. ALL of this is SPIRIT INSPIRED?

Ever since the Bible has been seperated from the Church, ever increasing protestant denominations have been trying to “reinvent the wheel” to “get back to pure christianity”, but they can’t.
Why? because the early Church:

1. Didn’t have “The Bible”, they were writing it - and
2. The Early Church was Catholic.

Those protestants who are wise, and really begin to look into this with intellectual honesty will find this to be true. many will become Catholic. As for the rest, many will succumb to the confusion and lies of the Evil one.

But as for Me and My House, we will Serve the Lord.
We will reside in the Glory of His, One, True Holy and Apostolic Church, Tested by fire through the ages and built on the Rock.

Peace
James

 

[Ronald_E]

The reason or motivation why a OSAS person does those works of faith are not the same as those who consider such works as being a part of “trying to at least partly make themselves worthy” of the already free gift of salvation.
Doing good works of faith out of gratitude and love for our Saviour is not at all the same as doing those works as part of qualifying ourselves to “maybe be saved in the end”.

Those not certain of being saved, can only be thankful for the opportunity of maybe getting saved by grace in the end. The joy of having a present eternal salvation can not exist, since they are never sure of that possession in this life. Death still holds a possible “sting” to the uncertain and they can not honestly say, “O death, where is thy sting?” in this life, as Paul did.

This OSAS concept just gave me a sickening feeling in my stomach. God knows what is in a person’s heart. If a person works because she or he does not feel they are worthy of God’s Love there is nothing wrong with that. Their faith has blessed them with that knowledge and their works are a tribute to their love for God. If a person suffers from scrupulosity that person’s suffering is the result of a deep misunderstanding of God’s Love or condemnation. As a matter of fact Luther suffered from scrupulosity that is why he wanted to reject James.
My motivation in my work does not come from the security of being saved. I cannot even say I am saved because it sounds so petty and selfish to me. My motivation is in knowing God’s Love and how His Love released me from the fear and shame that was harming me and others as I competed with them for social and material status. God’s Love motivates me to know Him deeper and to do His work. If I am not one of His workers I am empty and without purpose.
OSAS seems to breed an underlying spiritual narcissism that divides those who are saved from those who are not.

 

[sandusky]

DCD:

A person who continues to make statements that Catholics believe in works salvation after they have been corrected, would they be commiting the third sin against the Holy Spirit? Impugning the known truth?

Do Catholics believe that one is justified (saved) by faith alone?

Or, do they believe that one is justified by faith + works?

Your answer will answer your question in your post above.

When one apprehends the Catholic notion that the justified can lose their salvation on the basis of their sin, one grasps that Catholic salvation can be nothing but by works, and not by grace no matter the denials, IMO.

If your salvation can be lost based upon poor performance (mortal sin), then that salvation is ultimately performance, or works based, ISTM.

As Trent states:And, for this cause, life eternal is to be proposed to those working well unto the end, and hoping in God, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Jesus Christ, and as a reward which is according to the promise of God Himself, to be faithfully rendered to their good works and merits. For this is that crown of justice which the Apostle declared was, after his fight and course, laid up for him, to be rendered to him by the just judge, and not only to him, but also to all that love his coming. For, whereas Jesus Christ Himself continually infuses his virtue into the said justified, as the head into the members, and the vine into the branches, and this virtue always precedes and accompanies and follows their good works, which without it could not in any wise be pleasing and meritorious before God, we must believe that nothing further is wanting to the justified, to prevent their being accounted to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained also in its (due) time, if so be, however, that they depart in grace…Trent gives the nod to God’s grace and to Christ’s sacrifice, and the infusion of His virtue, but, they also conclude that the believer has "truly merited eternal life."

Trent was fighting the Reformation cry of the “solas,” in this instance, justification by “faith alone,” and clearly states the opposite.

 

[sandusky]

VociMike:

OSAS believers, I have a simple question. Is obedience to God necessary for your salvation? Will you (never mind anybody else, just you) be saved if you are not obedient to God? I am not talking here about perfect obedience which is of course impossible.ISTM, that you’ve answered your own question. Justification is not about perfection, but about God’s grace.

According to Scripture, those God justifies, He also glorifies; therefore, the justified will never lose their salvation as Biblical salvation includes perseverance.

The RC teaches the same thing as I pointed out earlier in this thread.

ISTM that you are arguing against your own De fide position.

 

[sandusky]

JRKH:

This thread is approaching 300 posts and certain things are clear.
Those who hold to OSAS have posted Bible verses supporting OSAS.
Those who oppose OSAS have posted Bible verses opposing OSAS.
Since the Bible cannot contradict itself, OSAS must be flawed.

As has been shown, both the Scripture, and the RC teach that the elect to salvation will persevere, and will lose neither their faith, nor their salvation; therefore, your conclusion is wrong.

 

[VociMike]

ISTM, that you’ve answered your own question. Justification is not about perfection, but about God’s grace.

Will you then state that you, yourself, can be saved with no obedience to God whatsoever? That’s what I’m asking.

 

[sandusky]

Will you then state that you, yourself, can be saved with no obedience to God whatsoever? That’s what I’m asking.

No.