There's no OSAS

[Fisher]

God hates sin.

Gal005:019 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 005:020 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
005:021 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they **which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. ** And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

 

[distracted]

sure you can abondon your walk with God and lose fellowship with him but he will never abandon you.

He will never abandon you but if you abandon Him, He will be far away from you and obviously, not fighting your battles because you aren’t letting Him… He will do this and do that to try to get you back, but if you refuse to come back, you will pay the consequences… As stated elsewhere, it may be difficult to lose your intimacy with/love for Christ entirely, but sin is the one thing that can destroy that if one gives in to sin and does not repent… It seems that it is impossible to lose “salvation” or close-ness w/ Jesus because … well, why would anyone want to go away from Him once he knows Him?? Yet, objectively speaking, it is not impossible… Also as stated earlier, the Green River killer was a “born - again Christian” before he committed all those murders… and the question has yet to be answered by the OSAS believers:

**If he were to die unrepentant, would he go to Heaven? **

Any growth on our part will attract the attention of the devil. He is the Great Deceiver, and he knows how to sneak into our lives. He knows our weak spots. Yet, we need to continually be relinquishing self-ownership to God to keep the devil from gaining any victory in our lives.

why would devil give a rip (attack) if he knew we were saved NO MATTER What??? That doesn’t make sense…

He is .,. going to finish what He started in us. Philippians 1:6 says, Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. God is going to complete what He began in us!

Not if we don’t let Him…

He will NOT interfere with our free will…

 

[johnnydigit]

why would devil give a rip (attack) if he knew we were saved NO MATTER What??? That doesn’t make sense…

interesting point. if a person is saved no matter what, why would the devil even bother with him? perhaps to make him his unknowing sidekick in taking down the unsaved souls? an erroneous theory just seems to snowball into an even bigger one down the road, taking everything and everyone with it!

 

[elt1956]

I will respond to the most "devastating " verse as you put it:

You say (2 Cor 11:2-3) is devastating to OSAS, but I fail to see how you can fully come to that conclusion. Paul is talking about the minds of the church members, not their already saved souls.
The mind is only a part of the soul; it is not the soul itself.
An Alzhimers patient would lack a soul, if only an uncorrupted mind was necessary for the existence of the actual soul.
A saved soul can still have a mind that is not completely correct in its understanding of the simplicity of the Gospel of Christ. The thief on the cross likely did not depend on his mind understanding Christ completely, in order to become saved. God did that work of eternal salvation as He does for all of us.
Paul is jealous that some false teacher would come into the church and corrupt the correct simple Gospel of Christ.
Jesus already warned about this and Jesus said that His sheep would know His voice (truth) and immediately (or eventually) flee the false shepherds. An eternally saved person will be guided by the indwelling Holy Spirit to reject those corrupting false apostles, who present more than the simple Gospel of believing in Jesus alone for salvation.

As far as (Phil 2:12), why don’t you include the next verse13 to understand what Paul is talking about?
“For it is God which worketh IN you to will and do of His good pleasure”, so that you can later work OUT that work God put INTO you first. Of course you must work OUT the work that God first worked IN you carefully (with fear and trembling).
Verse 12 says we work OUT, it does not say we work IN,which is God’s work, but our work is OUT. I 'm trying to be clear about Who does the actual work of salvation. It is God’s work, not ours. We just follow through with the fruits of the Spirit afterwards.

Hello. Although I am not yet well versed in scripture, ie. able to quote verses, or unquote them at will, it seems to me that anyone who holds with scripture only as being the first and foremost resource ot proof of what Jesus has tried to tell we fallible humans, is at a very huge disadvantage for complete understanding of the full concepts of faith. For instance, you quote Paul’s writing to the Corintheans, but you don’t say why he is writing to them. As I understand it, he was writing to guide the members of THE CHURCH to correct any misunderstandings they may have erroneously added to their worship of Christ, or the celebration of what eventually was called The Mass. Neither have you followed the line of succession of the Apostles to the Church Fathers, and onward down to the present day through the reading and studying of the writings of those leaders of THE CHURCH to the members of their congregations, including the Bishops who were leading those congregations. Nor have you investigated these writings of those leaders of the Church who came later in the history of the Catholic Church and onward to the present who very carefully studied the writings of the Apostles and Church Fathers to prevent falling into error in their teachings. It seems to me, you have left out very important Church history, education and understanding without which no one can begin to form true clarity of faith. Your understanding of what has happened within the church and what it retains from the beginning is, through perhaps no fault of your own, quite lop sided, because you interpret your faith through self knowledge and emotion. Unless one has the most complete picture of knowledge available in any topic, I don’t believe an educated opinion can be claimed, especially when attempting to interpret what God/Christ has revealed.

Now if you have already studied all the above and still believe Scripture as the only source of God’s Word, then I apologize in advance for being so presumptuous. But truly think about the various sources of information, ie. writings, history etc. that are available to help us poor mortals on our way.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Brkn said: Jesus said, “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he lose ONE of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go afte that which is lost, until he find it?”.

IMHO, the answer to the question would be very few that would abandoned the 99 and go after the one.

Let us put this situation in your own church persei. Your church has 1 Pastor and 100 members. During a Sermon 1 member gets up and walks out. Would your Pastor immediately leave the church and go after this 1 member? Would he even leave the Church and spend weeks away from his church and flock to find this 1 member?

When you discover the answer to those questions above, you can then discover the meaning of the verse you quoted.

Hope this Helps:tiphat:

 

[johnnydigit]

Hit seems to me that anyone who holds with scripture only as being the first and foremost resource ot proof of what Jesus has tried to tell we fallible humans, is at a very huge disadvantage for complete understanding of the full concepts of faith.

such a simple and logical concept that many of us arrived at even before we knew much about Jesus, yet for some reason protestants completely bypass this crucial reality. prayers…

 

[distracted]

if a person is saved no matter what, why would the devil even bother with him? perhaps to make him his unknowing sidekick in taking down the unsaved souls?

I suppose that would be a good reason to attack… but the devil is a superior intelligence… i don’t think he would waste his time on someone who is Heaven bound no matter what… and a Heaven-bound, totally saved person, it seems, can’t help him much to drag the unsaved into Hell…

Maybe i am tired right now…:yawn: (etc) but this whole subject is starting to get on my nerves… I mean, it is like trying to make sense out of something that just isn’t logical…

 

[distracted]

**How come none of you OSAS supporters has answered my question yet? **

The Green River Killer was a born-again Christian before he went on a killing rampage… If he were to die unrepentant, do you say he would go to Heaven??

 

[nsper7]

**How come none of you OSAS supporters has answered my question yet? **

The Green River Killer was a born-again Christian before he went on a killing rampage… If he were to die unrepentant, do you say he would go to Heaven??

How do you know he was a ‘born-again Christian’? He was active in his Pentecostal church, but whether he was truly Saved or not, no one but God and he can know. Also, reading up on him in Wikipedia (unreliable, but still useful), it seems he was highly mentally disturbed and had been the victim of a dominating/abusive mother, was obsessed with prostitutes and had two bad marriages (including infidelity on the part of his two wives). It would seem to me he had some kind of mental illness. I believe even Roman Catholic theology makes room for someone like that…

If he were truly Saved and died unrepentant, I believe he would be Saved, although he might have no rewards in Heaven.

OSAS theology usually understands that if someone is Saved, they receive a new “incorruptible” flesh when they die, one free of sin and the proclivity towards sin.

 

[nsper7]

such a simple and logical concept that many of us arrived at even before we knew much about Jesus, yet for some reason protestants completely bypass this crucial reality. prayers…

Notice the guy even said ‘first and foremost’. Most Protestants (myself included) recognize that other tools are needed to properly interpret Scripture. Where Protestants (and also the Eastern Orthodox and Old Catholic Churches, etc. to some degree) disagree with the Roman Catholic Church is in regards to the Latin Church’s (esp. the Pope’s) right to serve as sole interpretor. Granting one group (and one with many examples of historical wrongful actions, such as corruption and brutality…I won’t deny that the RCC has done a lot of good, but last I checked Christianity does not affirm an Islamic or Ancient Egyptian view that if your good works outnumber your sin, that you’re then ‘okay’) such supreme interpretive authority also defies logic.

 

[nsper7]

How do you know he was a ‘born-again Christian’? He was active in his Pentecostal church, but whether he was truly Saved or not, no one but God and he can know. Also, reading up on him in Wikipedia (unreliable, but still useful), it seems he was highly mentally disturbed and had been the victim of a dominating/abusive mother, was obsessed with prostitutes and had two bad marriages (including infidelity on the part of his two wives). It would seem to me he had some kind of mental illness. I believe even Roman Catholic theology makes room for someone like that…

If he were truly Saved and died unrepentant, I believe he would be Saved, although he might have no rewards in Heaven.

OSAS theology usually understands that if someone is Saved, they receive a new “incorruptible” flesh when they die, one free of sin and the proclivity towards sin. Thus, the issue of sin in the Believer is finally rectified in the end.

 

[elt1956]

nsper7:

How do you know he was a ‘born-again Christian’? He was active in his Pentecostal church, but whether he was truly Saved or not, no one but God and he can know. Also, reading up on him in Wikipedia (unreliable, but still useful), it seems he was highly mentally disturbed and had been the victim of a dominating/abusive mother, was obsessed with prostitutes and had two bad marriages (including infidelity on the part of his two wives). It would seem to me he had some kind of mental illness. I believe even Roman Catholic theology makes room for someone like that…

If he were truly Saved and died unrepentant, I believe he would be Saved, although he might have no rewards in Heaven.

OSAS theology usually understands that if someone is Saved, they receive a new “incorruptible” flesh when they die, one free of sin and the proclivity towards sin.

How does one believing this theology deserve this incorruptable body? If one dies unrepentant, of sins? commited against Christ how can s/he be SAVED and have no rewards? Saved for what, or whom? Saved to me means being able to partake of all that Heaven offers.

 

[nsper7]

How does one believing this theology deserve this incorruptable body? If one dies unrepentant, of sins? commited against Christ how can s/he be SAVED and have no rewards? Saved for what, or whom? Saved to me means being able to partake of all that Heaven offers.

We don’t deserve it. That’s the whole point. Salvation is not about us deserving anything (except Hell for our sins). It’s all about His paying the penalty for our sins.

Also, on rewards, St. Paul talks about it in his letter to the Corinthians:
1 Corinthians 3:12-15:

Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

If a person has bad works to show, then said works will be ‘burned up’ and they will suffer, but they will still be Saved. This passage shows that there will be levels of reward for Believers. Your definition of Salvation appears to contradict St. Paul’s. By his words, it seems there will be those who are Saved who will not be able to partake of all that Heaven offers (I would assume if you do not have many or any eternals rewards, it will somehow affect how Heaven is).

 

[Joey_13]

what if a person goes through all of the steps it takes to be a born again Christian and becomes a satanic high priest. Does he or she still go to Heaven? Don’t we have to live everyday as a Christian? What good is a gift if one doesn’t use it? Didn’t Christ say " some of you will knock on my door and call my name but I will not answer"?" Once saved always saved ". There is no humility in that type of belief. Doesn’t Jesus love the humble person?

 

[elt1956]

How do you know he was a ‘born-again Christian’? He was active in his Pentecostal church, but whether he was truly Saved or not, no one but God and he can know. Also, reading up on him in Wikipedia (unreliable, but still useful), it seems he was highly mentally disturbed and had been the victim of a dominating/abusive mother, was obsessed with prostitutes and had two bad marriages (including infidelity on the part of his two wives). It would seem to me he had some kind of mental illness. I believe even Roman Catholic theology makes room for someone like that…

If he were truly Saved and died unrepentant, I believe he would be Saved, although he might have no rewards in Heaven.

OSAS theology usually understands that if someone is Saved, they receive a new “incorruptible” flesh when they die, one free of sin and the proclivity towards sin.

What are the requirements for being saved for one who believes in once saved always saved?

 

[elt1956]

How do you know he was a ‘born-again Christian’? He was active in his Pentecostal church, but whether he was truly Saved or not, no one but God and he can know. Also, reading up on him in Wikipedia (unreliable, but still useful), it seems he was highly mentally disturbed and had been the victim of a dominating/abusive mother, was obsessed with prostitutes and had two bad marriages (including infidelity on the part of his two wives). It would seem to me he had some kind of mental illness. I believe even Roman Catholic theology makes room for someone like that…

If he were truly Saved and died unrepentant, I believe he would be Saved, although he might have no rewards in Heaven.

OSAS theology usually understands that if someone is Saved, they receive a new “incorruptible” flesh when they die, one free of sin and the proclivity towards sin.

We don’t deserve it. That’s the whole point. Salvation is not about us deserving anything (except Hell for our sins). It’s all about His paying the penalty for our sins.

Also, on rewards, St. Paul talks about it in his letter to the Corinthians:

If a person has bad works to show, then said works will be ‘burned up’ and they will suffer, but they will still be Saved. This passage shows that there will be levels of reward for Believers. Your definition of Salvation appears to contradict St. Paul’s. By his words, it seems there will be those who are Saved who will not be able to partake of all that Heaven offers (I would assume if you do not have many or any eternals rewards, it will somehow affect how Heaven is).

Where will they be "burned up’? Or how will reparation for bad works be atoned? Sounds a lot like the Catholic belief in Purgatory.

 

[elt1956]

We don’t deserve it. That’s the whole point. Salvation is not about us deserving anything (except Hell for our sins). It’s all about His paying the penalty for our sins.

Also, on rewards, St. Paul talks about it in his letter to the Corinthians:

If a person has bad works to show, then said works will be ‘burned up’ and they will suffer, but they will still be Saved. This passage shows that there will be levels of reward for Believers. Your definition of Salvation appears to contradict St. Paul’s. By his words, it seems there will be those who are Saved who will not be able to partake of all that Heaven offers (I would assume if you do not have many or any eternals rewards, it will somehow affect how Heaven is).

Do I understand correctly that ALL will attain Heaven no matter how great their wrongdoings if they are SAVED? How can you tell if you are saved? Who teaches this to you?

 

[elt1956]

I can only answer a few questions at a time, so please forgive me.

It is doubtful that any unsaved person is even capable of truly forgiving another person. They might convince themselves that they can forgive others, but it took God’s work in my life to make that possible for me to do. I had a very unforgiving spirit before being saved and it amazes me how that unforgiving spirit has so much less control of me anymore.

Look at (Mark 11:22-26).
Jesus is only talking about those who are praying in faith, which means that they are already saved and capable of such prayer. An unsaved person could not obey that command of Jesus to forgive others first before confessing and then praying to the Father for forgiveness through Jesus.

If the other person is “saved” why must you forgive him? Or why would that person need to seek forgiveness? If you have asked for forgiveness from someone, what makes that necessary if you are saved?

 

[elt1956]

I see the usual ignoring of the chapter context in this quote.
Jesus was speaking to the apostles and you might have noticed that Jesus said: “But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say to tou, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.” Matt 10:23

That does not apply to us, but you would seem to say that it does by pulling verses out of context.

Why not go down to verse 32 “Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.”
It does not say that I have to confess the church or pope before men either. That is nowhere to be found in Scripture.
I confess the Lord Jesus Christ alone as my Redeemer and this I can honestly do, since I know that I have been saved eternally by the gift of God through the Holy Spirit, Who sealed me as an permanently adopted born again child of God. There is no such thing as being unborn physically and the same thing applies to never being unborn spiritually. A child of God is forever a child of God.
I can thank my Lord and my God for that gift of eternal salvation, but you can not honestly do so, since you are not sure in your faith that God has given you that gift, which makes your faith incomplete and therefore possibly of no value towards saving you. You can’t trust or have complete faith in God because you see your life as a form of roulette, where you need to work at being “lucky in the state of grace” at death. You also have to depend on the church for salvation, which means it is not only Jesus that saves you. You believe that you can earn or merit the “gift of salvation”, which the bible clearly tells you can NEVER be earned or deserved, since it would no longer be a gift.
Go ahead and laugh at what I have just said here. I don’t fear you, or believe that you or your church can “destroy both soul and body in hell”. Jesus alone is my Judge and Redeemer, and I will put my trust in Him alone for my salvation. Peter is not biblically described at being at Heaven’s gate either. Jesus is the door or gate, and a person can spiritually enter now as a child of Heaven. A born again child of God is only a pilgrim and he becomes a grateful and willing servant of the Lord on this earth, until the Lord receives him finally in Heaven. OSAS makes sense to me.

Just to perhaps aleviate what “seems” to be your fear of the Catholic Church, or its members of the ability to destroy anyone, our belief is that one destroys oneself, or one saves oneself through the teachings of Scripture, the Church Fathers and the doctrines of the Catholic Church which can be traced back to the Apostles. Neither the Catholic Church, nor its members can destroy anyone’s belief if that belief is true and real. God/Jesus through His Church, bestows the Grace to be able to see what is true and not true. But one acting, or interpreting scripture by oneself, is more open to false/misguided, interpretations of the scriptures than those who have studied those teachings that have been passed down through the Catholic Church from the Apostles and the Fathers of the Church through today. We Catholics also confess Christ as our Redeember, but we have a solid foundation passed down through centuries of study and interpretaion of first the Fathers of the Church and then those who followed to keep us firmly anchored in the teachings of Christ.

As you can see from the postings and personal interpretations of scripture on this forum, mistakes and misunderstandings abound unless there is a consensus reached by persons of greater intellect, grace and faith than we individuals to help us stand fast in our beliefs.

 

[elt1956]

I see the usual ignoring of the chapter context in this quote.
Jesus was speaking to the apostles and you might have noticed that Jesus said: “But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say to tou, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.” Matt 10:23

That does not apply to us, but you would seem to say that it does by pulling verses out of context.

Why not go down to verse 32 “Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.”
It does not say that I have to confess the church or pope before men either. That is nowhere to be found in Scripture.
I confess the Lord Jesus Christ alone as my Redeemer and this I can honestly do, since I know that I have been saved eternally by the gift of God through the Holy Spirit, Who sealed me as an permanently adopted born again child of God. There is no such thing as being unborn physically and the same thing applies to never being unborn spiritually. A child of God is forever a child of God.
I can thank my Lord and my God for that gift of eternal salvation, but you can not honestly do so, since you are not sure in your faith that God has given you that gift, which makes your faith incomplete and therefore possibly of no value towards saving you. You can’t trust or have complete faith in God because you see your life as a form of roulette, where you need to work at being “lucky in the state of grace” at death. You also have to depend on the church for salvation, which means it is not only Jesus that saves you. You believe that you can earn or merit the “gift of salvation”, which the bible clearly tells you can NEVER be earned or deserved, since it would no longer be a gift.
Go ahead and laugh at what I have just said here. I don’t fear you, or believe that you or your church can “destroy both soul and body in hell”. Jesus alone is my Judge and Redeemer, and I will put my trust in Him alone for my salvation. Peter is not biblically described at being at Heaven’s gate either. Jesus is the door or gate, and a person can spiritually enter now as a child of Heaven. A born again child of God is only a pilgrim and he becomes a grateful and willing servant of the Lord on this earth, until the Lord receives him finally in Heaven. OSAS makes sense to me.

There is a motivation for a born again person to perform even more than an “employee” that is only seeking a “paycheck” (salvation).
With the security of already being guaranteed a paycheck according to a signed and sealed contract, there is the loyalty and gratitude that follows, which should motivate a good employee to do as much as possible for the firm and especially for the wonderful and gracious Boss. All energy can be put straight into promoting the Boss and firm, without having to worry about getting fired for possible mistakes. There is the added motivation of promised bonuses for running the race well also.

Russian roullette seems to be a better description of living life never fully sure that the ending might be eternal damnation in perpetual torment if you possibly did not cross all the "t"s or dot all the "i"s properly before the moment of death; which may be a long drawn out process, but there is still going to be a final moment when death, as in birth, is over.

I suppose a rational person might invent purgatory to cover that contingiency. I think they call that a “parachute” in the business world.
Good luck with the game of roullette, but you might want to look into God’s Word to see if maybe you have been reading the wrong instruction manual made by another company.

As regards faith, Russian roulette is never played in the Catholic Church. I know that if I am constant with Christ, He will be constant with me. I know if I fall off the path to Christ, I will regain the Grace of Salvation through Him, IF I repent and try to amend my life. The difference is, repentance for my sins and Christ’s forgiveness is accomplished through “showing myself to a priest”. The reception of the Sacraments, through which additional graces are given to me strengthen me along my journey, these are my assurance of everlasting life.