There's Something About Mary

[Soldier_Of_God]

Some people do use exaggeration. Perhaps this person does not understand the exact meaning of the word worship? In any case, you have many responses which explain the authentic Catholic teaching.

Thank you for your response. Perhaps the person didn’t understand the exact meaning but I have more than ample doubt that is not the case. For me, the issue isn’t a lack of understanding regarding Mary but my unease of what I perceive as active Mariolatry.

 

[Windfish]

Here are some things that I’ve seen with my own eyes…

• Kissing the feet of a statue of Mary
• Prayer’s to Mary to heal and provide salvation for a person
• An admission of a person that says he worships Mary
• Crowning, adorning and kneeling before Mary’s statue

• That is iffy.
• Also iffy. I can definitely see praying to Mary for her intercession towards those things is legitimate.
• Obviously wrong.
• What is wrong about this?

 

[wild_thing]

Yes, some people probably DO take their adoration of Mary too far. But does that mean all Catholics place too much emphasis on Mary? No.

Mary is the highest human ever to be elevated as a Saint. Jesus was both human and God, but Mary was all human. It is only natural to look to her as an example of how to become closer to her Son, because who was closer to Him than she?

The reason the Church is so ga-ga over her is because-guess what- her intercession is wildly effective. She is God the Father’s most obedient daughter; she is the Mother of God the Son, and she is the spouse of the Holy Spirit. She has the ears of all the Persons of the Most Blessed Trinity. As an earthly queen would usually have some pull with an earthly king, our heavenly Queen has triple the amount of pull with our King. And God Himself gave her to us. On the cross He said to St. John, “Behold, your mother.” She became our mother at that moment as well.

If you are constantly looking at how other people are viewing Mary instead of looking inside of yourself to see how you relate to her, you are missing out on a wonderful, rewarding relationship. Does your relationship with Mary have to be oversentimental and flowery? No. Does it have to be heretical worship? No, of course not. Does it even have to be a constant, non-stop devotion after devotion type of relationship? No. The Church only requires you to believe that she was Immaculately Conceived, that she is the Mother of God, that she is the highest of all the saints, that she is our intercessor with her Son, that she never sinned, and that God gave her to us as our Mother.

Do not worry about so much how other people in your life perceive her. Focus on your own relationship with God, and ask Him to help you form the sort of relationship He wishes you to have with His Mother- whatever that relationship might be.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

• That is iffy.
• Also iffy. I can definitely see praying to Mary for her intercession towards those things is legitimate.
• Obviously wrong.
• What is wrong about this?

What strikes me about the crowning is that I’ve not seen anything comparable with Christ or any other cherished member of the Church at the prayer group. In of itself and taken in isolation, this is not a problem. However, when combined with heavy set of Marion prayers and songs, the kneeling in front a BVM statue and the fact most religious talk is about Mary during prayer group meetings, I cannot help think that too much focus is paid to her. To be fair, there were prayers about the Holy Spirit and Jesus but it seemed to be almost an afterthought. Then again that’s my viewpoint.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

Yes, some people probably DO take their adoration of Mary too far. But does that mean all Catholics place too much emphasis on Mary? No.

Yes, I agree and that’s the stance that I’ve traditionally adopted. However, I’ve become more sensitive to Marian adoration because I perceive it to be ever encroaching on religious practice.

Do not worry about so much how other people in your life perceive her. Focus on your own relationship with God, and ask Him to help you form the sort of relationship He wishes you to have with His Mother- whatever that relationship might be.

That’s what I’ve been attempting to do but I’ve been finding it increasingly difficult to do so.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You are correct, they are be personal feelings but these feelings are proving to be disturbing to my Catholic faith. Futhermore, that’s doesn’t discount them as being invalid nor does it mean I’m necessarily incorrect in feeling them either. Additionally, I’m not incapable of rational analysis and comprehension. I’m not taking individual instances and blowing them out of proportion. I’m taking a lifetime of personal experience and exposure.

To simply dismiss my concerns only as my misinterpretations or personal bias isn’t overly helpful with my struggle. To recognize that many Catholics do take things to far might be a more appropriate perspective. As an aside, to label me iconoclastic because I do not fall prostrate at the sight of a statue Mary isn’t very condusive to level headed discourse.

And of course that is a problem to which I’m sympathetic (apparently the ‘smilies’ don’t convey the kind of tongue-in-cheek sort of --“I sympathize and so I’ll exaggerate a little with a smile to kind of let you see that just as you might be going too far interpreting others, I"ll pretend to go too far a bit interpreting you!” that I was aiming for.

You sound like a rational person - and male to boot–which could mean you are personally uncomfortable with behaviors that seem to go farther than YOU would. I have relatives who would cheerfully hug the scariest stranger on the street, and others who still draw back from the most tentative hug from their nearest and dearest. Obviously the very, um, ‘unrestrained’ hugging from one group might make even a ‘neutral’ person feel uncomfortable so imagine how a very ‘buttoned down’ person would feel. . .

but does that mean either the ‘unrestrained’ or the ‘button down’ person is WRONG in his feelings?

Not necessarily.

IF you yourself feel uncomfortable with kissing a statue, it’s fine. There is no Church teaching that you MUST kiss a statue.

But there is a teaching about the hearts of others and not putting obstacles in their way. It works both ways. You might be uncomfortable seeing others go ‘overboard’… . but how do you think THEY might feel having somebody misjudging them and demanding that they ‘restrain themselves’ as if they were doing evil when they themselves had no thought of evil?

We DO understand and sympathize with you, but I do think you might want to truly consider exactly why you criticize those whom you are now complaining of.

Because really, you KNOW what the Church teaches about Mary. And while ‘going overboard’ could be a problem for that ONE person (and even that we aren’t sure of!), from your posting it doesn’t seem to me that you are even on board, thoroughly, with all that the Church teaches about Mary and you want to have Mary, as it were ‘downgraded’ into a being that YOU personally feel ‘comfortable’ with, regardless of whether that being is the true Mary or not.

It’s great to want to have people know the correct teaching but is it really the CORRECT teaching you want to see from others, or is it that you want to see people behaving the way you want them to behave?

 

[SonCatcher]

What strikes me about the crowning is that I’ve not seen anything comparable with Christ or any other cherished member of the Church at the prayer group. In of itself and taken in isolation, this is not a problem. However, when combined with heavy set of Marion prayers and songs, the kneeling in front a BVM statue and the fact most religious talk is about Mary during prayer group meetings, I cannot help think that too much focus is paid to her. To be fair, there were prayers about the Holy Spirit and Jesus but it seemed to be almost an afterthought. Then again that’s my viewpoint.

Have you ever seen the Infant of Prague?


I cannot address the issues of a particular prayer group, parish, diocese, etc. (many such issues are local) but it is quite plain to me that Jesus is honored with similar or greater imagery than that used for the Blessed Virgin.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

And of course that is a problem to which I’m sympathetic (apparently the ‘smilies’ don’t convey the kind of tongue-in-cheek sort of --“I sympathize and so I’ll exaggerate a little with a smile to kind of let you see that just as you might be going too far interpreting others, I"ll pretend to go too far a bit interpreting you!” that I was aiming for.

I appreciate the sentitment. I should have picked-up on your facetious tone but I’m just not in the right frame of mine. I’m upset at my personal situation.

You sound like a rational person - and male to boot–which could mean you are personally uncomfortable with behaviors that seem to go farther than YOU would. I have relatives who would cheerfully hug the scariest stranger on the street, and others who still draw back from the most tentative hug from their nearest and dearest. Obviously the very, um, ‘unrestrained’ hugging from one group might make even a ‘neutral’ person feel uncomfortable so imagine how a very ‘buttoned down’ person would feel. . .

but does that mean either the ‘unrestrained’ or the ‘button down’ person is WRONG in his feelings?

Not necessarily.

IF you yourself feel uncomfortable with kissing a statue, it’s fine. There is no Church teaching that you MUST kiss a statue.

But there is a teaching about the hearts of others and not putting obstacles in their way. It works both ways. You might be uncomfortable seeing others go ‘overboard’… . but how do you think THEY might feel having somebody misjudging them and demanding that they ‘restrain themselves’ as if they were doing evil when they themselves had no thought of evil?

We DO understand and sympathize with you, but I do think you might want to truly consider exactly why you criticize those whom you are now complaining of.

I would say criticism is not what I’m attempting to do. I do understand that every individual expresses themselves differently, especially concerning religious matters. I’m not trying to judge anyone (their actions perhaps) or presume to know what they are thinking but too many alarm bells are going off for me to ignore them.

Because really, you KNOW what the Church teaches about Mary. And while ‘going overboard’ could be a problem for that ONE person (and even that we aren’t sure of!), from your posting it doesn’t seem to me that you are even on board, thoroughly, with all that the Church teaches about Mary and you want to have Mary, as it were ‘downgraded’ into a being that YOU personally feel ‘comfortable’ with, regardless of whether that being is the true Mary or not.

I’m sense I’m well versed with regards of the doctrines of the BVM. This issue for me is that I’m not able to reconcile what I observe with what I know. If I cannot reconcile this disorder I’m feeling, it will impact my ability to practice my beliefs with full sincerity. It feel like I’m in a state of cognitive dissonance.

It’s great to want to have people know the correct teaching but is it really the CORRECT teaching you want to see from others, or is it that you want to see people behaving the way you want them to behave?

This is a fair question to which I have given much thought. Posting on the Internet was the last thing I wanted to do but I felt this is an appropriate recourse as I’m reluctant to approach the parish priest on this matter due to various reasons. It is my conviction that the practices I’ve been seeing over the years are a breach of Catholic teachings.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

Have you ever seen the Infant of Prague?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Infant_Jesus_of_Prague.jpg

I cannot address the issues of a particular prayer group, parish, diocese, etc. (many such issues are local) but it is quite plain to me that Jesus is honored with similar or greater imagery than that used for the Blessed Virgin.

That would be fine if that was done in conjunction with the BVM or on its own but that hasn’t been the case in my personal experiences.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I appreciate the sentitment. I should have picked-up on your facetious tone but I’m just not in the right frame of mine. I’m upset at my personal situation.
I would say criticism is not what I’m attempting to do. I do understand that every individual expresses themselves differently, especially concerning religious matters. I’m not trying to judge anyone (their actions perhaps) or presume to know what they are thinking but too many alarm bells are going off for me to ignore them.

I’m sense I’m well versed with regards of the doctrines of the BVM. This issue for me is that I’m not able to reconcile what I observe with what I know. If I cannot reconcile this disorder I’m feeling, it will impact my ability to practice my beliefs with full sincerity. It feel like I’m in a state of cognitive dissonance.

This is a fair question to which I have given much thought. Posting on the Internet was the last thing I wanted to do but I felt this is an appropriate recourse as I’m reluctant to approach the parish priest on this matter due to various reasons. It is my conviction that the practices I’ve been seeing over the years are a breach of Catholic teachings.

You do seem to have thought this through. And it is indeed a reasonable possibility that some people may have gotten at the least confused, and at worst, really confused to the point of not really teaching or practicing authentic Catholic teaching or practices.

The good thing is that you do know and love the “real” Mary, quite obviously, and the “real” Jesus, and that you want to be sure everybody is getting ‘real’, that is to say, “Truthful” understanding.

And while in the normal course our parish priest might be the ‘go-to’ person there are indeed situations where this just wouldn’t work --nothing to do with the character of the priest or implying anything wrong, but for any of a number of good reasons.

If I were in your shoes, I would probably try looking into a very strong Christ-centered devotion–perhaps something like the Sacred Heart (which we just celebrated) or perhaps something on the line of the Holy Face (feast celebrated on Shrove Tuesday), or daily meditations with the “Imitation of Christ” (by Thomas a Kempis), starting up a Eucharistic Holy Hour or joining in with Perpetual Adoration if it exists in your parish. And I’d probably check out the religious shops or the EWTN catalogue and get a nice large statue of Christ, get a nice reproduction of something like “The Last Supper”, put out a few nice posters of Christ as the Good Shepherd, beef up my G.K. Chesterton, etc. --and I’d start wearing a good sized crucifix. IOW, I would really beef up my CHRIST-CENTERED practices at home to start and work them into my life in the parish. I think that I would find myself, if I felt completely ‘grounded’ in Christ, much less inclined to be worried. Because I think that Christ would help me to see a bit more clearly. And of course, if there WAS a need to help people who had gone off track, I’d be able to kind of give them a focus.

And just having that focus I think I’d probably model Christ, and people would start to notice and they would NOTICE that I had those ‘externals’ and would, I feel, begin to want to have them too. And by reading more about Christ and seeing more visual ‘reminders’ they would be spending more time with Him, naturally.

So that when the little old lady who is kissing the statue of the Virgin Mary catches your eye, and you smile at her and touch your crucifix and say, “Blessed be the fruit of her womb”, SHE will (if she hasn’t already) make the connection that everything Mary did and said leads to JESUS (not to Mary), and YOU’LL be happy to acknowledge the Mother who bore your Savior. . .both of you will have good authentic Catholic teaching and practices that you both will appreciate. . .anyhow, that’s what I’d think about doing.

 

[panevino]

… Additionally, many of use consider Mary analogous to their own mother.x.
…

Though u r probably fully aware of these…

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Gen17:15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah [shall] her name [be].16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be [a mother] of nations; kings of people shall be of her…19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, [and] with his seed after him.

 

[GloriousOrder]

Just to add: the poor O.P. is not saying that individual worship of Mary is to be suspected because of the individual doing it, but because the individual must have learned it from a higher source. What higher source is this? Could it be that the Church Herself puts too much emphasis on the blessed Virgin? That seems to be the question trembling on his lips. Forgive me if it isn’t. Now, if the Church teaches all the things that so many Catholics dangerously believe Mary to be, then the Church is teaching idolatry. This seems to be the unspoken worry of Soldier of God.

 

[FCEGM]

. . .Additionally, many of use consider Mary analogous to their own mother. .

Well, she is - and more than an analogy, for if Christ lives in us, Mary is our Mother, too. For a superb presentation on the Blessed Virgin and her prerogatives you should read the great Dominican theologian Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange on the subject in his work The Mother of Our Saviour and Our Interior Life. This would might help you understand why what causes you concern is far less than the honor is due her because of the reality of what God has done in her life.

 

[RosaryFan]

Here are some things that I’ve seen with my own eyes…

• Kissing the feet of a statue of Mary
• Prayer’s to Mary to heal and provide salvation for a person
• An admission of a person that says he worships Mary
• Crowning, adorning and kneeling before Mary’s statue

(1) I kiss my mother every time I see her.
(2) I also ask my mother all the time to pray for me. Since the Blessed Mother is more likely able to obtain salvation for me from her Son, then that type of prayer is totally appropriate.
(3) The admission of that person is probably akin to someone saying they “worship Kareem Abdul Jabar”. Do they really understand what the word “worship” means and are they using it in the proper and intended context? How many times have you heard people say they “worship the ground” someone walks on? No one accuses them of blasphemy.
(4) God has already crowned Mary as Queen of Heaven and earth. And adorning a statue of Mary is no worse that putting a statue of Abe Lincoln outside of his Memorial. It cracks me up how people misunderstand all the statues that we Catholics have, but there are statues all over the secular world. Statues, portraits, pictures, billboards, sculptures, memorials… But that’s okay. Put a crown on one Blessed Mother statue and the whole world is falling apart. As far as I’m concerned, Mary is my mother and my Queen - not Rocky Balboa.

 

[RosaryFan]

One final thought:

Mary is the most perfect human being God created. She is God’s masterpiece. When an artist creates a masterpiece, what does he do with it? He does not stick it in a closet and hide it from the world. He displays it proudly, on a museum wall, with a bright light shining on (…or adorning) it, for all to see, admire, love and “ooh-and-aah” over.

This perfect masterpiece of God’s was given to us by God Himself. “Behold thy mother”! He didn’t say “Behold MY mother”. So we’ve established that Mary is, indeed, OUR mother. What is God’s 4th Commandment? It is HONOR THY FATHER AND THY MOTHER. Ergo, we are commanded by God to honor Mary.

 

[PeterGStanley]

Here is some words from an article I looked over:

In this short article, we will consider John Paul II’s reflections on the Hail Mary and how they can transform the way we pray this prayer and lead us to deeper intimacy with Jesus each time we recite it.

First, John Paul II explains that although the Hail Mary is addressed to Our Lady, “it is to Jesus that the act of love is ultimately directed” . When expounding on this prayer, he divides the Hail Mary into two halves. In an amazing statement, John Paul II notes how the words from the first half of the Hail Mary express “the wonder of heaven and earth” over the mystery of Christ in the womb of the Virgin Mary .
Let’s consider what he means about “the wonder of heaven and earth” in the Hail Mary. The first line-“Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee”-is drawn right from the angel Gabriel’s words to Our Lady in the Annunciation scene (Lk. 1:28). To more fully appreciate the meaning of this opening line in the Hail Mary, imagine what these words originally meant to the Archangel Gabriel. Gabriel is an angel who existed long before Mary did. Gabriel has been around a lot longer than the nation of Israel or the entire human family. In fact, Gabriel was there when God first created the world. From the beginning of his existence, Gabriel has been worshipping, adoring, and loving the infinite, almighty God, the Creator: the Blessed Trinity.

And now, this great angel is sent to a woman named Mary-in order to announce to her that the all-holy, all-powerful God he has been worshipping from the beginning of his existence is about to become a little baby in her womb. In awe over that profound mystery of his eternal God becoming a little embryo in Mary’s womb, Gabriel greets Mary saying, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you” (Lk. 1:28). Indeed, the Lord has not been with anyone like He is about to be with Mary. In joyful wonder, Gabriel recognizes this, and his words give praise to God for becoming man in her.

Similarly, Elizabeth greets Mary with great honor. The biblical account of the Visitation tells us that Elizabeth was “filled with the Holy Spirit” (Lk. 1:41), which indicates that she was given prophetic insight. Before Mary has a chance to say anything about her own pregnancy, Elizabeth already knows. And she knows Mary is pregnant not with any ordinary child, but with the Lord Himself. In wonder over this mystery of God becoming man in Mary, Elizabeth exclaims, “blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!” like Gabriel, Elizabeth’s words give praise to God for the Incarnation.
Do you realize that every time you recite the Hail Mary, you are repeating these famous words of Gabriel and Elizabeth? And in doing so, you enter into the ecstatic joy of “heaven and earth” over the mystery of Christ: heaven, represented by Gabriel, and earth, represented by Elizabeth. Both come together to praise God for becoming man in Jesus Christ, the child conceived in Mary’s womb. And we join in that praise of God every time we pray the Hail Mary. Indeed, the Hail Mary is truly a Christ-centered prayer!
Furthermore, since these words of Gabriel and Elizabeth are from the inspired Word of God in Scripture, they also represent God’s own response to the mystery of the Christ. Hence, whenever we repeat these words in the Hail Mary, we participate in God’s joy over the Incarnation. As John Paul II explains, “These words . . . could be said to give us a glimpse of God’s own wonderment as he contemplates his ‘masterpiece’-the Incarnation of the Son in the womb of the Virgin Mary. . . . The repetition of the Hail Mary . . . gives us a share in God’s own wonder and pleasure: In jubilant amazement we acknowledge the greatest miracle of history” .
The second half of the Hail Mary also is focused on Jesus. Here, we entrust our lives to Mary’s intercession, asking her to “pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.”

As a model disciple of Christ, who said “yes” to God’s will all throughout her life- from the time when Gabriel first appeared to her all the way to the Cross-Mary is the ideal person to be interceding for us through the many trials and struggles we face in our lives. We ask her to pray for us, so that we may follow God faithfully like she did. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches, “She prays for us as she prayed for herself: ‘let it be to me according to your word.’ by entrusting ourselves to her prayer, we abandon ourselves to the will of God together with her: ‘Thy will be done’”.

Finally, we see just how Christ-centered the Hail Mary is when we come to what John Paul II calls “the hinge” of this prayer: the holy name of Jesus. Not only is the name of Jesus the hinge that binds the two halves together, but it is truly meant to be the “center of gravity” of the entire Hail Mary.
This should encourage us to examine how we pray the Hail Mary: Is Jesus’ name truly “the center of gravity” of our prayer? Do we treat the name of Jesus with extra care and speak His name with love when we recite the Hail Mary?

John Paul II notes how emphasis should be given to the name of Jesus in this prayer. However, if we pray the Hail Mary too quickly, we may not give the proper reverence and loving attention to Jesus’ name that we should. “Sometimes, in hurried recitation, this centre of gravity can be overlooked” . A friend of mine says we should treat the name of Jesus in the Hail Mary like a speed bump-something for which we slow down and pay extra attention when we come to it.

Another analogy might be taken from the language of love. Lke a lover tenderly speaking the name of one’s beloved, we should speak the name of Jesus in this prayer. Indeed, with each Hail Mary, we should affectionately repeat the name of our bridegroom-“blessed is the fruit of thy womb . . . Jesus”-so that the holy name of Jesus, spoken with tender love, truly becomes the heartbeat of every Hail Mary we pray.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

You do seem to have thought this through. And it is indeed a reasonable possibility that some people may have gotten at the least confused, and at worst, really confused to the point of not really teaching or practicing authentic Catholic teaching or practices.

I’ll follow-up and act on your advice. Perhaps leading by example is the most sound choice. The pastor has been asking for volunteers for formal bible studies and catechism discussions. I was asked to support this cause and perhaps I can ask the pastor to speak to appropriate ways to conduct latria, hyperdulia and dulia in one of these sessions.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

Just to add: the poor O.P. is not saying that individual worship of Mary is to be suspected because of the individual doing it, but because the individual must have learned it from a higher source. What higher source is this? Could it be that the Church Herself puts too much emphasis on the blessed Virgin? That seems to be the question trembling on his lips. Forgive me if it isn’t. Now, if the Church teaches all the things that so many Catholics dangerously believe Mary to be, then the Church is teaching idolatry. This seems to be the unspoken worry of Soldier of God.

An astute observation as this was an undercurrent of my concern. I wanted to contain the scope of my problem to just my personal feelings and observations but what you’ve indicated is true as well. I do not wish to deny the BVM her rightful respect, I just do not wish it to be at the expense of appropriate veneration and the worship of the Trinity.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

Well, she is - and more than an analogy, for if Christ lives in us, Mary is our Mother, too. For a superb presentation on the Blessed Virgin and her prerogatives you should read the great Dominican theologian Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange on the subject in his work The Mother of Our Saviour and Our Interior Life. This would might help you understand why what causes you concern is far less than the honor is due her because of the reality of what God has done in her life.

I have a heavy book backlog but I’ll keep an eye out on your recommendation. Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[supertubos]

She is not the Mediator between God and man - Jesus is (see 1 Tim. 2:5). She is a co-mediatrix because she said “yes” to God by becoming Jesus’ mother, but Jesus is the one Mediator between God and man - the only one who can bring us to God.

God Bless.

Is it so?
Never heard such a terminology.
Jesus is the Mediator between God and Man ? But Jesus is God !
I have found little about co-mediatrix. If you clarify this, thanks…