Things women do that disappoint their boyfriend

[DarkLight]

The Catholic view is informed by the teaching of the Magisterium the writings and doctrines of Popes, encyclicals, counciliar documents - as well as the fathers, doctors spiritual teachers and lives of the saints.
Boundaries are given to the role of father and husband so the excesses and abuses you’re concerned about have already been addressed.
None of this is true for the Protestant view which is sola scriptura based and is open to subjective interpretations which end up as a distortion of the true teaching.

A good book that covers the Catholic view is “Three Marks of Manhood” by Dilsaver.

Who interprets and applies those boundaries?

 

[Sarcelle]

Who interprets and applies those boundaries?

There are Papal encyclicals that do this. One is St. John Paul II Mulieris Dignitatem and Pope Pius XI Casti Conubii. I don’t know if I’m saying this correctly.

Come to think of it, marriage can be quite scary for a woman. If a devout Catholic woman marries early, foregoing post secondary education, not necessarily university but vocational school as well, has a fair number of kids quite early, she is very dependent on her husband. If her husband is a decent person, then she is blessed.

But what if he isn’t? What redress does she have? What are her options? Who will help her?Too often those who are in the position to help her often tell her to go back to the abuse and submit even more and offer it up.

I grew up in an extended family and personally I think this helps a lot as her relatives can step in and help her. But for nuclear families in the US, the wife is often isolated.

Now they say hard cases make for bad laws and I think the spiritual leadership of the husband still stands in spite of potential for abuse. I agree, however we must also have compassion for those who are caught in abuse.

 

[DarkLight]

Come to think of it, marriage can be quite scary for a woman. If a devout Catholic woman marries early, foregoing post secondary education, not necessarily university but vocational school as well, has a fair number of kids quite early, she is very dependent on her husband. If her husband is a decent person, then she is blessed.

But what if he isn’t? What redress does she have? What are her options? Who will help her?Too often those who are in the position to help her often tell her to go back to the abuse and submit even more and offer it up.

This is much of what I’m trying to get at. Certainly there is instruction, but if it’s left up to the man to interpret and apply that instruction to his marriage, how much does it help?

And there can be examples even without the mentality of abuse. For one example - men don’t always realize how hard their wives work, and there’s a definite tendency in certain segments to think that the wife’s duties are “just” housework or “just” childcare. This can lead to piling more and more responsibility on the wife simply because the husband doesn’t realize what’s actually going on.

In an ideal relationship, of course, the wife would be able to approach the husband and put forward that she can’t keep up with everything expected of her - that either he needs to do more or they need to obtain outside help somehow. But the concern is that if the husband is too much of the mentality of submission, he may be in a position where he feels he has to judge whether his wife is working hard enough, and that can be a dangerous position to be in regarding another adult!

 

[reggieM]

This is much of what I’m trying to get at. Certainly there is instruction, but if it’s left up to the man to interpret and apply that instruction to his marriage, how much does it help?

Just wondering - you don’t list your religion. Are you Christian? Atheist? Catholic? Some other?

 

[Xantippe]

The Catholic view is informed by the teaching of the Magisterium the writings and doctrines of Popes, encyclicals, counciliar documents - as well as the fathers, doctors spiritual teachers and lives of the saints.
Boundaries are given to the role of father and husband so the excesses and abuses you’re concerned about have already been addressed.
None of this is true for the Protestant view which is sola scriptura based and is open to subjective interpretations which end up as a distortion of the true teaching.

A good book that covers the Catholic view is “Three Marks of Manhood” by Dilsaver.

It would be nice if you explained what you think those boundaries are.

I know what I think, but I don’t know what you think.

NonTimendum, if I remember correctly, was saying that it was OK if a wife were to be tyrannized over her entire life, as she’s going to her heavenly reward, so it doesn’t really matter what happens for her entire earthly life.

Would you like to distinguish your view from that view?

 

[reggieM]

NonTimendum, if I remember correctly, was saying that it was OK if a wife were to be tyrannized over her entire life, as she’s going to her heavenly reward, so it doesn’t really matter what happens for her entire earthly life.

Could you quote that post for me please?

 

[LightBound]

We are required to submit to the authority of the Church in all things that pertain to that authority. In the Catholic view, a wife is actually required to give advice to her husband on decisions when he seeks it (and he is required to seek it on important matters) as she should participate in her husband’s leadership role by contributing to it.
The husband can seek spiritual guidance also - and confession is necessary.
All of that, however - the priest or spiritual teacher does not have authority over the family. The priest cannot command the husband, under obedience, on matters that are the husband’s authority. This is with exception to matters of sin or abuse. But in other matters, it is the father’s role. Just as it is the pastor’s role to make decisions about the parish.
St. Augustine compared fathers to bishops - as they are entrusted with leading their flock to heaven and both have the responsibility of leadership.
Women may think that leadership is a matter of having some fun and bossing people around, but true fatherly leadership is a burden and responsiblity that the man must take.
Most men today do not want that. They’re embarrassed by it. They think they’re not worthy of having their wife obey them in that way. But it’s not a question of that - it’s what God has commanded, leadership for the man, obedience for the wife.

How does this play out for you in daily life with your wife? It would be nice to see how your view actually works on a daily basis in their marriage. Would you mind sharing some examples that you’ve personally had with your role as leader to your wife and children?

 

[Xantippe]

You speak about hard-core and being “way into” but the impression that comes across to me is that you reject the notion of obedience and submission from the wife entirely. Again, to merely speak of abuses or what you don’t like about it would leave that impression.

I think that obedience is always a limited concept, for whatever authority we are dealing with (parents, husband, civil authorities). Anybody who talks about obedience to authority needs to be prepared to talk about the abuses of authority and how they plan to deal with those abuses.

Also, bear in mind that Jesus said (quoting Genesis), “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?” Or ideal is not a master-slave relationship, but unity.

Here’s a nice piece by Sheila Wray Gregoire. She describes a disagreement she and her husband had and how they solved it:

“We stopped trying to figure out which of us would win, and we started brainstorming ideas so both of us got what we needed. Eventually Keith closed his office one afternoon a week so that he could care for the kids while I wrote–and he still got a night out with his friends.”

“If we had followed some traditional Christian teaching, though, we may have given up too early. Sometimes our teaching on submission insinuates that God actually sees marriage as a “him vs. her” relationship where one of you is supposed to win–and that person is your husband.”

"Unity is to be the hallmark of a Christian relationship [she quotes 1 Corinthians and St. Paul’s plea to ““be perfectly united in mind and thought.”], so God clearly wants us to pray, wrestle through, and seek His will together. By assuming that a wife will always defer to her husband, though, we’re not necessarily even seeking God’s will. After all, if the couple is in disagreement and they do it the husband’s way, there are only two possibilities: either one of them is not hearing God, or both of them are not hearing God.”

ibelieve.com/relationships/what-we-often-get-wrong-about-submission.html

I believe in submission in the sense of love and unity and always seeking the welfare of the family, but not in the sense of doing exactly what I’m told–particularly as that may conflict with love, unity, and family welfare.

**Bear in mind, I tried to do it your way for many years, and I was a terrible, awful failure at it. ** I tried to be a submissive wife and hop to and fulfill my husbands requests (which was how I thought of wifely submission), but it made me extremely angry with my husband (for example, he’d tell me not to go to bed, and I’d stay up, even though I was virtually seeing double with exhaustion and I’d be SO angry with him for having so little concern for my well-being). And, funnily enough, he didn’t even realize that I was doing that I was trying to be submissive or that he was asking for things that were harmful/didn’t make sense–because I wasn’t telling him because I was trying to be submissive. Ever since I stopped believing in wifely submission as being primarily about obedience and started thinking of it in terms of service to my family and unity, I have actually become a much kinder, pleasanter and much less volatile wife–in fact, I’ve finally got my temper 98% under control. I think that’s not too far from what St. Paul meant when he asked wives to be submissive.

When I say “way into” and “hard core” submission, what I’m talking about people (who you can see on CAF on any submission thread) who have turned wifely submission into the end all be all of the Christian life. You can see this in action by the way that a handful of submission verses are held to be superior to the entire New Testament, as opposed to the entire New Testament interpreting and fleshing out those verses. (As you’ve probably noticed, I get a lot of mileage out of “Do unto others,” which I feel like has a much more solid case for being the ethical key to the NT, being the Golden Rule and all.)

 

[DarkLight]

Just wondering - you don’t list your religion. Are you Christian? Atheist? Catholic? Some other?

Catholic here, adult convert. The convert bit does play in here - I come here and I hear the same rhetoric I heard in the protestant churches, almost down to the letter. And I saw people’s lives destroyed by it there. I saw a glimpse of what my life was supposed to be like, and knew that there was no way I could not hate every minute of it. What would make the Catholic view different?

 

[Xantippe]

We are required to submit to the authority of the Church in all things that pertain to that authority. In the Catholic view, a wife is actually required to give advice to her husband on decisions when he seeks it (and he is required to seek it on important matters) as she should participate in her husband’s leadership role by contributing to it.
The husband can seek spiritual guidance also - and confession is necessary.
All of that, however - the priest or spiritual teacher does not have authority over the family. The priest cannot command the husband, under obedience, on matters that are the husband’s authority. This is with exception to matters of sin or abuse. But in other matters, it is the father’s role. Just as it is the pastor’s role to make decisions about the parish.
St. Augustine compared fathers to bishops - as they are entrusted with leading their flock to heaven and both have the responsibility of leadership.
Women may think that leadership is a matter of having some fun and bossing people around, but true fatherly leadership is a burden and responsiblity that the man must take.
Most men today do not want that. They’re embarrassed by it. They think they’re not worthy of having their wife obey them in that way. But it’s not a question of that - it’s what God has commanded, leadership for the man, obedience for the wife.

So, there’s nobody in authority over the pastor?

I don’t think that’s how that actually works.

Trust me–I understand leadership because I am a mother of several children. I know people sometimes don’t realize this, but motherhood is a leadership role. I have a teen, a tween and a preschooler, and a big percentage of my job is leading them. With the big kids, I am in the process of granting them more and more autonomy, as they are going to be adults real soon. I also try to treat my big kids with a lot of respect and I more and more explain the logic of my actions to my big kids. I try to give them more and more opportunities to make decisions.

So, I expect at least that much from my husband: respect, reasonable autonomy, and communication.

 

[Xantippe]

This is much of what I’m trying to get at. Certainly there is instruction, but if it’s left up to the man to interpret and apply that instruction to his marriage, how much does it help?

And there can be examples even without the mentality of abuse. For one example - men don’t always realize how hard their wives work, and there’s a definite tendency in certain segments to think that the wife’s duties are “just” housework or “just” childcare. This can lead to piling more and more responsibility on the wife simply because the husband doesn’t realize what’s actually going on.

In an ideal relationship, of course, the wife would be able to approach the husband and put forward that she can’t keep up with everything expected of her - that either he needs to do more or they need to obtain outside help somehow.** But the concern is that if the husband is too much of the mentality of submission, he may be in a position where he feels he has to judge whether his wife is working hard enough, and that can be a dangerous position to be in regarding another adult**!

Right.

This is actually a problem with dealing with Ephesians 5 the way a lot of people want to deal do it. People who are way into submission think that the husband gets to decide both a) if he is laying down his life for his wife enough and b) if his wife is submitting enough.

Needless to say, this doesn’t make a lot of sense as a system–it’s like a school where one student gets to decide all of his grades, plus the grades of other students.

 

[pianistclare]

There are Papal encyclicals that do this. One is St. John Paul II Mulieris Dignitatem and Pope Pius XI Casti Conubii. I don’t know if I’m saying this correctly.

Come to think of it, marriage can be quite scary for a woman. If a devout Catholic woman marries early, foregoing post secondary education, not necessarily university but vocational school as well, has a fair number of kids quite early, she is very dependent on her husband. If her husband is a decent person, then she is blessed.

But what if he isn’t? What redress does she have? What are her options? Who will help her?Too often those who are in the position to help her often tell her to go back to the abuse and submit even more and offer it up.

I grew up in an extended family and personally I think this helps a lot as her relatives can step in and help her. But for nuclear families in the US, the wife is often isolated.

Now they say hard cases make for bad laws and I think the spiritual leadership of the husband still stands in spite of potential for abuse. I agree, however we must also have compassion for those who are caught in abuse.

Indeed. This attitude was advanced in another thread from a severely abused woman. She was told to go back and be submissive. It was expressed that this is what God intends.

NO, NO IT IS NOT, and any priest will tell a woman so. You bring up a very good point.
What if the man severely FAILS in his job as husband, father, provider? Where’s the compassion? You’re right. Marriage and martyrdom are not the same thing, and they should not be.

 

[pianistclare]

Catholic here, adult convert. The convert bit does play in here - I come here and I hear the same rhetoric I heard in the protestant churches, almost down to the letter. And I saw people’s lives destroyed by it there. I saw a glimpse of what my life was supposed to be like, and knew that there was no way I could not hate every minute of it. What would make the Catholic view different?

The difference is that here on these threads you often get a vocal proponent of things that are not Catholic teaching at all. They are personal interpretations developed by out of context musings of non-Theologians.

That you remain a faithful Catholic is a testament to your hard workin guardian angel.

God bless you, hope to see you on the other side. (Of the internet, LOL)

 

[AdamP88]

A few other thoughts:

1 - Complete submission of the wife in marriage is actually un-biblical. If you read the “submission passages” in light of the whole Gospel, and, indeed, the whole bible…I think it gives a more nuanced view.

2 - I think the woman giving up any of her own authority in marriage could possibly be sinful. If the Husband, for example, is rubbish at doing the finances, but the wife could actually do this task incredibly well, yet the husband persists in the idea that this is a “Husband job”. The finances go into worse and worse shape…yet the husband doesn’t seek assistance from the wife. And the wife doesn’t offer it, as she’s a good submissive “Christian” wife. This is a case of abdication of responsibility on the part of the wife, and pride and stupidity on the part of the husband.

3 - I look at it this way. My wife and I practice biblical submission in our marriage. We just don’t think about it or go on and on about it. She generally goes with decisions I make in areas that I’m good at dealing with and I will consult her on most of these and I always take her advice to heart, especially in areas that I know she is good at.
I take the words of Christ to heart, and the words of St. Paul and all the other Saints, and I lead my wife, hopefully to heaven, by serving her and treating her with the same respect that Christ would. She considers me the head of the family. I act like it.
One can put the teachings of St. Paul into practice in a manner consistent with the rest of the Bible, and do this in daily life, without even thinking about it. Or talking about it for that matter. I have a feeling that the people who place massive emphasis on submission in marriage and come on to these forums to preach about it are missing the point. Any activity in marriage should be something that will not hinder the other from reaching heaven.
In fact, one could even say that I “discipline” my wife, because I’m willing to call her out when she does sin in some way. But she does the same for me, and if she didn’t then how the heck would I reach heaven!!??

The main reason I feel uneasy about the submission preached by some here is that the emphasis is always about the authority of the husband and never the salvation or good of the wife. I might be swayed by an argument that considers the woman in marriage in terms of her dignity as a human person and the good of her eternal soul.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Are you talking about emotional verbal and physical abuse?

Originally Posted by NonTimendum View Post
Is it possible that a wife could sometimes feel like a husband has abused his authority not because he actually has but because her pride has been hurt?

(Bumping this question back up so it’s not forgotten)

NonTimendum
Are you talking about emotional verbal and physical abuse?
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message

 

[Sarcelle]

A few other thoughts:

1 - Complete submission of the wife in marriage is actually un-biblical. If you read the “submission passages” in light of the whole Gospel, and, indeed, the whole bible…I think it gives a more nuanced view.

2 - I think the woman giving up any of her own authority in marriage could possibly be sinful. If the Husband, for example, is rubbish at doing the finances, but the wife could actually do this task incredibly well, yet the husband persists in the idea that this is a “Husband job”. The finances go into worse and worse shape…yet the husband doesn’t seek assistance from the wife. And the wife doesn’t offer it, as she’s a good submissive “Christian” wife. This is a case of abdication of responsibility on the part of the wife, and pride and stupidity on the part of the husband.

3 - I look at it this way. My wife and I practice biblical submission in our marriage. We just don’t think about it or go on and on about it. She generally goes with decisions I make in areas that I’m good at dealing with and I will consult her on most of these and I always take her advice to heart, especially in areas that I know she is good at.
I take the words of Christ to heart, and the words of St. Paul and all the other Saints, and I lead my wife, hopefully to heaven, by serving her and treating her with the same respect that Christ would. She considers me the head of the family. I act like it.
One can put the teachings of St. Paul into practice in a manner consistent with the rest of the Bible, and do this in daily life, without even thinking about it. Or talking about it for that matter. I have a feeling that the people who place massive emphasis on submission in marriage and come on to these forums to preach about it are missing the point. Any activity in marriage should be something that will not hinder the other from reaching heaven.
In fact, one could even say that I “discipline” my wife, because I’m willing to call her out when she does sin in some way. But she does the same for me, and if she didn’t then how the heck would I reach heaven!!??

The main reason I feel uneasy about the submission preached by some here is that the emphasis is always about the authority of the husband and never the salvation or good of the wife. I might be swayed by an argument that considers the woman in marriage in terms of her dignity as a human person and the good of her eternal soul.

People often mistake leadership with micromanaging.

A good leader recognizes the capabilities of those under his leadership.

 

[Xantippe]

People often mistake leadership with micromanaging.

A good leader recognizes the capabilities of those under his leadership.

Right.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

I take the words of Christ to heart, and the words of St. Paul and all the other Saints, and I lead my wife, hopefully to heaven, by serving her and treating her with the same respect that Christ would. She considers me the head of the family. I act like it.
One can put the teachings of St. Paul into practice in a manner consistent with the rest of the Bible, and do this in daily life, without even thinking about it. Or talking about it for that matter. I have a feeling that the people who place massive emphasis on submission in marriage and come on to these forums to preach about it are missing the point. Any activity in marriage should be something that will not hinder the other from reaching heaven.
In fact, one could even say that I “discipline” my wife, because I’m willing to call her out when she does sin in some way. But she does the same for me, and if she didn’t then how the heck would I reach heaven!!??

Actually, some of the comments about “wifely submission” and “if a husband abuses his authority he will answer to God” seem to imply that a wife actually does NOT have a responsibility to help her husband reach heaven, that the responsibility only is on the husband regarding his wife.

In many Fundamentalist circles there is an idea that women are “perpetual minors” and should never be independent of a man, and should be under the “umbrella of protection” of a man all their lives, either a father, husband, or grown adult son. And as much as actual minor children, even male ones, are not tasked with the responsibility of helping their parents reach heaven, I wonder if the idea is that the woman’s responsibility is merely to avoid directly leading a man into sin, but not anymore than that, and so the man has a greater burden.

Indeed, it seems it would be perfectly within the letter of this “law” for lack of a better word, for a wife to follow every whim of her husband and appear to be a submissive obedient house slave, yet internally think “I obey my husband because God commanded me to do so, and if not I will be sinning and going to hell. Hopefully I will go to heaven and never see my husband again because he will be in hell for abusing me, or at least spend much more time in Purgatory than me, so I’ll get a break from him for a few decades.”

 

[Lea101]

Holey moley…I go away for two days and we have another submission thread.

To be fair, I’m sure a small part of you saw this coming

 

[Lea101]

I have to say, I haven’t seen a lot of sinless men crucified for their wife’s sake.

I sometimes wonder if the whole “lay down your life” for your wife stuff isn’t the wrong place to start, when a lot of guys struggle with laying down the remote control, joystick, phone, or mouse. It’s easy to think, sure I’d lay down my life for my wife when that’s not what’s currently asked for or needed. I’ve even seen some people (for example Red Pill Christian guys online) whose idea of “laying down” their lives is making sure to boss their wives around and keep them on a tight leash. (Fortunately, that’s a minority view.)

Not that women are perfect, but that it’s often the little things where guys fail–poor hygiene, ignoring children, dawdling about home responsibilities, financial carelessness, etc.

I do know a lot of good Christian guys, but I don’t think that it’s obvious that they “lay down” their lives any more than their wives do.

In fact, as I’ve pointed out before, “laying down your life for” and submitting are essentially the same thing.

Sure.

I’ve noticed when the men here talk about submission, they do mention about loving their wives, but it’s always in a hypothetical way. It’s always a ‘IF this happens, I would." if a husband’s masculinity (or ego) comes before his wife’ s happiness and security…