This blows my mind

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Another grim fact is that 100% of humans die. Using your logic, we could rest easy that disregarding the natural process and killing people as we see fit is of no consequence because it is going to happen anyway. Regardless of at what stage of life a person is at, it is never ok to kill them, even if the chance of natural death is high.

I understand your thinking and don’t find it odd at all that you did not know these statistics. I just think you need to look at the issue from a different perspective to increase understanding.
 
I started reading this and just kept reading.

Thanks for the education on the subject. I am impressed how knowledgeable the folks are on this site. Take care.
 
Another grim fact is that 100% of humans die. Using your logic, we could rest easy that disregarding the natural process and killing people as we see fit is of no consequence because it is going to happen anyway. Regardless of at what stage of life a person is at, it is never ok to kill them, even if the chance of natural death is high.

I understand your thinking and don’t find it odd at all that you did not know these statistics. I just think you need to look at the issue from a different perspective to increase understanding.
What logic do you speak of? I originally posted something that made me take a step back and think. We consider life starting at conception and yet unknown to us, we have conception and abortion occurring all the time. It’s just a powerful thing to think about. THen people started calling me stupid for not knowing this OBVIOUS FACT OF BIOLOGY and then started overanalyzing everything I, and other people, have written. This forum is NOT conducive to open discussion on Catholic beliefs; it’s a way for people sure in their faith to make others feel inferior.

To sum up, and I hope this doesn’t confuse people, I was MERELY making an observation that took me by surprise. I wasn’t condemning, I wasn’t asking for moral opinions, I wasn’t doing anything but COMMENTING. PLEASE STOP trying to make me out to be a bad guy so YOU can feel better about yourself. Supposedly, we are all brothers in the church so stop stabbing me in the back.

Can a mod please comment and tell me why this thread hasn’t closed even though I asked it to be?
 
What logic do you speak of? I originally posted something that made me take a step back and think. We consider life starting at conception and yet unknown to us, we have conception and abortion occurring all the time. It’s just a powerful thing to think about. THen people started calling me stupid for not knowing this OBVIOUS FACT OF BIOLOGY and then started overanalyzing everything I, and other people, have written. This forum is NOT conducive to open discussion on Catholic beliefs; it’s a way for people sure in their faith to make others feel inferior.

To sum up, and I hope this doesn’t confuse people, I was MERELY making an observation that took me by surprise. I wasn’t condemning, I wasn’t asking for moral opinions, I wasn’t doing anything but COMMENTING. PLEASE STOP trying to make me out to be a bad guy so YOU can feel better about yourself. Supposedly, we are all brothers in the church so stop stabbing me in the back.

Can a mod please comment and tell me why this thread hasn’t closed even though I asked it to be?
I beleiveyou got caught in the crossfore becuase of mistaken assumptions of many of us here. The high % of spontaneous abortions is often used as an argument for abortion and againt life beginning at conception. I am afraid that was what many of us thought is where you were going when we read you intial post. As the old saying goes never assume!
 
What logic do you speak of? I originally posted something that made me take a step back and think. We consider life starting at conception and yet unknown to us, we have conception and abortion occurring all the time. It’s just a powerful thing to think about. THen people started calling me stupid for not knowing this OBVIOUS FACT OF BIOLOGY and then started overanalyzing everything I, and other people, have written. This forum is NOT conducive to open discussion on Catholic beliefs; it’s a way for people sure in their faith to make others feel inferior.

To sum up, and I hope this doesn’t confuse people, I was MERELY making an observation that took me by surprise. I wasn’t condemning, I wasn’t asking for moral opinions, I wasn’t doing anything but COMMENTING. PLEASE STOP trying to make me out to be a bad guy so YOU can feel better about yourself. Supposedly, we are all brothers in the church so stop stabbing me in the back.

Can a mod please comment and tell me why this thread hasn’t closed even though I asked it to be?
I apologize if I misunderstood your intention or position.
 
The high % of spontaneous abortions is often used as an argument for abortion and againt life beginning at conception.
I think the high number of spontaneous abortions does indeed make me ponder the question of when life begins. On the scale of ponderous theological constructs, that one is a ten in my book…! Because it leads to the possibility that there are more souls in heaven of those who have never drawn a breath than those of us reading these boards. Heavy…!

To be clear, though, I ponder this while still believing that abortion is wrong.
 
Plinko, I haven’t read all the responses, there are too many. But I was so disturbed that you felt slowly distanced from the Church by some uncharitable members. I had to write and beg you to hang in there. YOU are loved, wanted and welcomed by the Church. We are members of the Church, yes, but not any one of is the entire Body of Christ. 2 things come to mind, the idea of not leaving Peter because of Judas. Judas is always with us in some of us. And each of us has the capacity (through concupiscence) of being Judas at one time or another.

The other is a quote I recently read that to give scandal (by lack of charity or whatever) is spiritual murder, and to accept scandal is spiritual suicide. I beg you to stay here, at Catholic Answers, a spiritual suicide hotline, and rediscover the Holiness of the Church, despite the ever-present brokenness of Her members.

God Bless and MANY prayers! Stay with us, please!!
 
I think the high number of spontaneous abortions does indeed make me ponder the question of when life begins.
But for life to end, as in that of a zygote dying or not implanting and being discarded, doesn’t that mean there had to be life in the first place?

You can’t die if you’re not alive.

And since we’re all here, and were once all zygotes, it would stand to reason since we’re not dead, that we are alive, thus, since we don’t start life as some clump of zombie cells, it is logical, and biologically proper to accept that life begins at conception.

We can titter over whether or not the zygote is “human” or “a person”, but the reality is, the zygote, the embryo, foetus, baby, toddler, these are all human beings, just in different stages of development.
 
My bad.

What I meant was: link to source of information, please.
This is way on a tangent. What started as a simple comment has digressed into me finding sources about oral contraceptives, a substance that I never mentioned supporting or opposing (so if you were assuming that I’m gung-ho for birth control, please think again). Here’s a source:

prolifephysicians.org/abortifacient.htm

It’s pretty dense so I’ve copied and pasted the part that really gets the meaning across. The point is, drug companies do not necessarily tell you the truth. They don’t lie, but they pick and choose the research that will help them sell drugs. For the pill, women want backups: if one mechanism fails, they feel safer knowing that there is a backup mechanism built into the pill. So the pharm. companies cherry picked 3 mechanisms that have been supported at one time or another so that Ms. Don’t-want-a-child feels safe having sex. I’m not saying it’s ethical, but that’s how it’s done. Anyway, here’s what a pro-life physician website has to say on the subject

A second reason that pro-life physicians may not hold the position that oral contraceptives cause abortions is that they are unconvinced by the evidence. There is ample data to support the first two method of actions of OCs mentioned above. But the third proposed method of action, the so-called “hostile endometrium theory”, has little direct evidence to support it. Drug manufacturers have heralded it from the beginning without proof, and it has been echoed by two generations of investigators without verification. There is indirect evidence that the OC produces a thinner, less glandular, less vascular lining, and there is direct evidence from the field of in vitro fertilization that a thinner, less glandular, less vascular lining is less likely to allow the attachment of the new human being when it enters the uterus. However, when a woman taking OCs does ovulate, the corpus luteum (the ovarian follicle turns into the corpus luteum after ovulation) produces ten to twenty times the levels of both estrogen and progesterone seen in a non-non-ovulatory pill cycle. This results in the growth of stroma, blood vessels, glands, and glandular secretions to help prepare the lining for implantation. If there is no conception after ovulation, the corpus luteum ceases to function about two weeks after ovulation and menses follows. However, if conception occurs following ovulation, the embryo releases the human chorionic gonadotropin hormone (HCG), which stimulates the corpus luteum to continue its function until the placenta takes over hormone production two months later.

The proponents of the “hostile endometrium theory” argue that OCs are abortifacient based upon the third mechanism of action. The medical literature clearly supports the claim that the uterus becomes thinner and less glandular as a result of the OCs, however, the medical literature comes to this conclusion from non-ovulatory pill cycles. It is assumed that this finding in non-ovulatory pill cycles would prevent implantation of the embryo conceived in an ovulatory pill cycle, but this presumption is false. If a woman on OCs ovulates and conceives, everything changes: through the HCG’s affect on the corpus luteum, and the corpus luteum’s release of high levels of estrogen and progesterone, the uterus is able to nourish its new guest very well.

It is noteworthy that in a normal menstrual cycle, on the day of ovulation, the endometrium is not receptive to implantation. If the embryo were to drop down through the fallopian tubes into the uterus on that day, it could rightly be called a “hostile endometrium”. But following ovulation, the corpus luteum transforms this hostile endometrium into a receptive, nourishing bed, where the embryo will attach about one week later after its trip through the fallopian tube, and where the baby will continue to develop until birth.

I include here a statement from pro-life Ob/Gyns, wherein they strongly disagree with those who purport that oral contraceptives cause abortions.
 
And since we’re all here, and were once all zygotes, it would stand to reason since we’re not dead, that we are alive, thus, since we don’t start life as some clump of zombie cells, it is logical, and biologically proper to accept that life begins at conception.
Most probably yes, I agree with that. But I don’t think that it is a slam-dunk lock.

It’s reasonable to ponder that life may (I say may) begin at a later stage of viability. Carl Sagan wrote an interesting essay on this. Perhaps it’s when the spinal column reaches a certain level of development, or when the lungs can breathe outside the womb. Again, the idea that most (many) fetuses are naturally aborted early after conception opens the door for me.

And this isn’t just a wordsmithing ploy to get to some point where I can justify abortion. As I stated, I do not support, and don’t believe that I could ever counsel someone to have one.
 
This is way on a tangent. What started as a simple comment has digressed into me finding sources about oral contraceptives, a substance that I never mentioned supporting or opposing (so if you were assuming that I’m gung-ho for birth control, please think again). Here’s a source:

prolifephysicians.org/abortifacient.htm

It’s pretty dense so I’ve copied and pasted the part that really gets the meaning across. The point is, drug companies do not necessarily tell you the truth. They don’t lie, but they pick and choose the research that will help them sell drugs. For the pill, women want backups: if one mechanism fails, they feel safer knowing that there is a backup mechanism built into the pill. So the pharm. companies cherry picked 3 mechanisms that have been supported at one time or another so that Ms. Don’t-want-a-child feels safe having sex. I’m not saying it’s ethical, but that’s how it’s done. Anyway, here’s what a pro-life physician website has to say on the subject

A second reason that pro-life physicians may not hold the position that oral contraceptives cause abortions is that they are unconvinced by the evidence. There is ample data to support the first two method of actions of OCs mentioned above. But the third proposed method of action, the so-called “hostile endometrium theory”, has little direct evidence to support it. Drug manufacturers have heralded it from the beginning without proof, and it has been echoed by two generations of investigators without verification. There is indirect evidence that the OC produces a thinner, less glandular, less vascular lining, and there is direct evidence from the field of in vitro fertilization that a thinner, less glandular, less vascular lining is less likely to allow the attachment of the new human being when it enters the uterus. However, when a woman taking OCs does ovulate, the corpus luteum (the ovarian follicle turns into the corpus luteum after ovulation) produces ten to twenty times the levels of both estrogen and progesterone seen in a non-non-ovulatory pill cycle. This results in the growth of stroma, blood vessels, glands, and glandular secretions to help prepare the lining for implantation. If there is no conception after ovulation, the corpus luteum ceases to function about two weeks after ovulation and menses follows. However, if conception occurs following ovulation, the embryo releases the human chorionic gonadotropin hormone (HCG), which stimulates the corpus luteum to continue its function until the placenta takes over hormone production two months later.

The proponents of the “hostile endometrium theory” argue that OCs are abortifacient based upon the third mechanism of action. The medical literature clearly supports the claim that the uterus becomes thinner and less glandular as a result of the OCs, however, the medical literature comes to this conclusion from non-ovulatory pill cycles. It is assumed that this finding in non-ovulatory pill cycles would prevent implantation of the embryo conceived in an ovulatory pill cycle, but this presumption is false. If a woman on OCs ovulates and conceives, everything changes: through the HCG’s affect on the corpus luteum, and the corpus luteum’s release of high levels of estrogen and progesterone, the uterus is able to nourish its new guest very well.

It is noteworthy that in a normal menstrual cycle, on the day of ovulation, the endometrium is not receptive to implantation. If the embryo were to drop down through the fallopian tubes into the uterus on that day, it could rightly be called a “hostile endometrium”. But following ovulation, the corpus luteum transforms this hostile endometrium into a receptive, nourishing bed, where the embryo will attach about one week later after its trip through the fallopian tube, and where the baby will continue to develop until birth.

I include here a statement from pro-life Ob/Gyns, wherein they strongly disagree with those who purport that oral contraceptives cause abortions.
Thank you very much for this very informative source. I must tell you though that one reading will not be enough for me to comprehend it well enough to discuss it.

I find some of the conclusions below troubling, though.
*l. We know of no existing scientific studies that validate the “hostile endometrium is abortifacient” theory.
4. Many factors play a part in how a family plans and spaces their children. It is not the purpose of this paper to promote, nor to oppose hormonal contraception. However, if a family, weighing all the factors affecting their own circumstances, decides to use this modality, we are confident that they are not using an abortifacient.
5. This paper is not meant to be the “final word” on this issue. If scientific study should validate that a hormonal contraceptive agent is partly abortifacient in its action, we would oppose that agent just as we oppose elective medical and surgical abortions. *
And since this topic was not the original intent of your comments on this thread, I will start another thread when I understand the article and will not derail your thread any more.

Thanks again.
 
It’s reasonable to ponder that life may (I say may) begin at a later stage of viability. Carl Sagan wrote an interesting essay on this. Perhaps it’s when the spinal column reaches a certain level of development, or when the lungs can breathe outside the womb. Again, the idea that most (many) fetuses are naturally aborted early after conception opens the door for me.
But the thing is, how do we find that moment where “life” begins?

Are we going to go on about sentience? In which case, it would be justified to kill the newborn, up to about 2 years when sentience and self-awareness begins to function.

What of children who have failure in their development, where say there is a defect in the brain development of spinal cord? Would these children be, for the sake of abortion, considered “dead” and thus justification can be legally sought for their deaths?

What about the development of science? 30 years ago, viability would have been about 30 weeks, now children as young as 20 weeks have survived outside the womb.

How do we determine what is life? If we start mincing words about viability and sentience and spinal cord development or whatever we can then quite easily apply other standards to life to deprive those that don’t meet that standard. There is also the risk of people using non-biological factors to determine whether someone is “alive”. Just look what the Nazis did, what the SCOUS did when it labelled black people as only 1/5th of a person, and in other places that society said they werent’ really alive.

MRS. GREN is a happy little acroymn to describe what is requried for an entitiy to be classed as “alive”.

Movement, Respiration (cellular), Sense, Growth, Reproduction (again, cellular) Excretion, Nutrition.

The unborn child at all stages of its development express these.

The best thing we can do to ensure all human life is protected and that there is no loop hole for someone to craft some list of requirements for something to be classed as alive when it’s already alive. And life begins at conception.
 
But the thing is, how do we find that moment where “life” begins?

Are we going to go on about sentience? In which case, it would be justified to kill the newborn, up to about 2 years when sentience and self-awareness begins to function.

What of children who have failure in their development, where say there is a defect in the brain development of spinal cord? Would these children be, for the sake of abortion, considered “dead” and thus justification can be legally sought for their deaths?

What about the development of science? 30 years ago, viability would have been about 30 weeks, now children as young as 20 weeks have survived outside the womb.

How do we determine what is life? If we start mincing words about viability and sentience and spinal cord development or whatever we can then quite easily apply other standards to life to deprive those that don’t meet that standard. There is also the risk of people using non-biological factors to determine whether someone is “alive”. Just look what the Nazis did, what the SCOUS did when it labelled black people as only 1/5th of a person, and in other places that society said they werent’ really alive.

MRS. GREN is a happy little acroymn to describe what is requried for an entitiy to be classed as “alive”.

Movement, Respiration (cellular), Sense, Growth, Reproduction (again, cellular) Excretion, Nutrition.

The unborn child at all stages of its development express these.

The best thing we can do to ensure all human life is protected and that there is no loop hole for someone to craft some list of requirements for something to be classed as alive when it’s already alive. And life begins at conception.
Sure. Again, I do not like abortion, and don’t think that I could counsel someone to have one… for many of the same reasons you list above.

I think that the question is nonetheless an interesting one to ponder, on many levels: even more reason to be in awe of the event; wonder at the development of science; what is God’s plan and how does it reconcile with all of the above…?
 
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