This is why Peter isnt the rock.Its christREAD

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seetiger33,

If you don’t make a very sound rebuttal to the explanation which is quite very clear as crystal, then I consider your argument closed. You’re just repeating the biased arguments of your fellow protesters. Read Church history and you will discover more than what you believe right now.

Pio
 
I think it’s very interesting that many who claim to take the Bible literally don’t think Jesus meant this literally: *And so I say, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. *Matt 16:18

Catholics, on the other hand, took those words so literally that the Vatican is literally built upon Peter. As we buried our most recent Pope, we are reminded that we have a Church–St. Peter’s in Rome–that is built upon the grave of Peter, the rock. And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
 
Been there, done that. Someone else posted the same thing in another thread. I think CM did very well with that. I would think reading those would help.
 
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gardenswithkids:
I think it’s very interesting that many who claim to take the Bible literally don’t think Jesus meant this literally: *And so I say, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. *Matt 16:18
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These are the same people who go through linguistic gymnastics so that they don’t have to believe John 6 is literal either.
 
👋 seetiger33,

You’ve been back to CA Forums since you started this thread. Why no response? Are you asking questions and looking for debate or just wishing to post your view but unwilling to look at the arguments on why you may be wrong?

Church Militant had some very well presented and thought out rebuttal to your view. Others had some good points also.

No response?

If you only have time to pick one person to respond to I personally would like to see your response to Church Militant. Too much for you? How about hlgomez?

If you “lost the thread” next time you respond choose to subscribe to a thread. It makes things easier to find.

God Bless,
Maria
 
With that said it is obvious most of you reallly really believe if you arnt a true catholic believing body youll go to hell. Hmm . I guess the jews might have something to say about that. And maybe even john the baptist.
 
I apologize if this has already been covered, I have not read all of the posts.
Holy Scriptures:
Matthew 16:13-20
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealedit unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter(petros), and upon this rock(petra) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
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We all know that more controversy has swirled around this verse than almost any other verse in the Gospel. The question is, “Who or what is the rock?” Part of the problem arises from the fact that the Greek words for Peter and for rock are similar, but the meanings are different. The first, petros, means a stone or loose rock; the second, petra, means rock, such as a rocky ledge. So what Jesus really said was “ … you are Peter (stone), and on this rock I will build My church.” He did not say He would build His church on a stone but on a rock.

If Peter is not the rock, then what is? If we stick to the context, the obvious answer is that the rock is Peter’s confession that Christ is the Son of the living God, the truth on which the church is founded. Ephesians 2:20 teaches that the church is built on Jesus Christ, the chief cornerstone. Its statement that we are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets refers not to them, but to the foundation laid in their teachings concerning the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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seetiger33:
If we take scripture put it together and say yes scripture is consistant. Yes there are no double meanings or falsehoods of the word of god. So look at all these scriptures were the rock is obviously God himself. So who is god? Jesus. Trinity. Of course you agree now look at all these scriptures. God is obviously the rock.
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Guess that makes Peter a chip off the old block, eh?

Peter held the keys of the kingdom. The keys were the authority of the king. The keys were given to the prime minister in the kings absence. Peter held the keys as Christ’s vicar, which is like a deputy marshall. His successors held the same authority, that of a deputy until the marshal returns.
 
In Matthew chapter 23 Jesus tells the crowd that they must listen to and observe what the Pharisees tell them because they have sat in the seat of Moses. Now, there is no establishing of a “seat” of Moses in scripture. It means they have inherited their authority from the office of Moses. Office holders die, but their office continues.

One of the first things that the Apostles did in the Acts of the Apostles was choose a successor for the seat of Judas… (“His office, let another man take.”) Oddly enough, Judas was not breathed upon by the Lord after His resurrection, nor was he in the upper room when the Holy Spirt descended upon tose present. In fact, he betrayed the Lord and commited suicide. Yet, Judas’ initial union with the Lord and the other apostles created an office that had to be filled.

Christ is the rock, the cornerstone. Certainly the Lord’s presence and role in life created an office as did both Moses and Judas. Simon Bar-Jonah was renamed Rock by the Lord because the Lord was making Peter the man who would inherit Jesus’ earthly office; the office of the cornerstone, the rock.

Now it is held by Pope Benedict XVI. God bless him.

Thal59
 
In Matthew chapter 23 Jesus tells the crowd that they must listen to and observe what the Pharisees tell them because they have sat in the seat of Moses. Now, there is no establishing of a “seat” of Moses in scripture. It means they have inherited their authority from the office of Moses. Office holders die, but their office continues.

One of the first things that the Apostles did in the Acts of the Apostles was choose a successor for the seat of Judas… (“His office, let another man take.”) Oddly enough, Judas was not breathed upon by the Lord after His resurrection, nor was he in the upper room when the Holy Spirt descended upon those present. In fact, he betrayed the Lord and commited suicide. Yet, Judas’ initial union with the Lord and the other apostles created an office that had to be filled.

Christ is the rock, the cornerstone. Certainly the Lord’s presence and role in life created an office as did both Moses and Judas. Simon Bar-Jonah was renamed Rock by the Lord because the Lord was making Peter the man who would inherit Jesus’ earthly office; the office of the cornerstone, the rock.

Now it is held by Pope Benedict XVI. God bless him.

Thal59
 
A couple things here.
  1. Has anyone else noticed that everything Jesus is saying refers to Peter exclusively?
    “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood have not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven. Whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven.”
    I checked the Greek, and every one of these is a singular “you” applying to Peter alone. It only is logical that in this address of Jesus to Peter and about Peter, Peter is referred to throughout. It would make no sense to throw in something else in the middle of his address to Peter. Just by following grammar rules of parallel structure, the rock is Peter.
  2. About the keys. Check out Isaiah 22:20-22. God is going to remove the position of stewarship from the present steward and give the position and authority to Eliakim.
    “On that day I will summon my servant Eliakim, son of Hilkiah; I will clothe him with your robe, and gird him with your sash, and give over to him your authority. He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open.”
    Sound kinda familiar? Peter has just been granted the authority of stewardship in the kingdom of heaven. A mighty big role. Vaguely reminiscent of the Pope’s role.😉

    So we have in this passage:
    - Jesus calling Peter “blessed”
    - Peter’s name is changed. As someone previously mentioned, that is a big deal. Think of the others whose names were changed.
    - Peter is given authority in the kingdom of heaven
    - The rock problem
    I don’t know about you, but it seems to me that Peter is the rock.
 
Another thought. If Peter (and, it just so happens, only Peter) was guided by God to make a true and infallible statement about our faith, what is to prevent that from happening again to him or his successors. Just a cool little thing to back up Papal Infallibility. Everyone has to agree it happened at least once.😃
 
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anawim:
Guess that makes Peter a chip off the old block, eh?

Peter held the keys of the kingdom. The keys were the authority of the king. The keys were given to the prime minister in the kings absence. Peter held the keys as Christ’s vicar, which is like a deputy marshall. His successors held the same authority, that of a deputy until the marshal returns.
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Peter was not the vicar(wordly representitive) of Christ, the Holy Spirit is.

John 14

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: F28 I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me. 25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Also Christ never instituted a pope heirachy.

35 And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire. 36 And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you? 37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory. 38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? 39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: 40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared. 41 And when the ten heard it, they began to be much displeased with James and John. 42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. 45 For **even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. **
 
I’m a Catholic studying theology at a Presbyterian college (long story). Just last week I finished writing an assignment on Matt. 16. I wish this thread was available 3 weeks ago, I could have got so much from it!

Nice posts Church Militant!
 
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PhilNeri:
Another thought. If Peter (and, it just so happens, only Peter) was guided by God to make a true and infallible statement about our faith, what is to prevent that from happening again to him or his successors. Just a cool little thing to back up Papal Infallibility. Everyone has to agree it happened at least once.😃
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Peter was not infallible. Catholic pope’s were not even infallible until the 1800’s. Hence a doctrine not backed by the Word of God.

Matt 16
21 From that time Jesus began to shew to his disciples, that he must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the ancients and scribes and chief priests, and be put to death, and the third day rise again. 22 And Peter taking him, began to rebuke him, saying: Lord, be it far from thee, this shall not be unto thee. 23 Who turning, **said to Peter: Go behind me, Satan, thou art a scandal unto me: because thou savourest not the things that are of God, but the things that are of men. **

In Galatians 2:11-16, we find Paul had to face down the “Prince” of the apostles because he was teaching heresy. It was Paul who corrects Peter’s theology on the vital doctrine of grace. Further, in Galatians 2:6-8 we see the Scriptures very clearly state that “God accepts no man’s person,” that is, no one has primacy. Furthermore, the Bible states that as the Gospel of the circumcised, the Jews, was given unto Peter, equally the Gospel of the uncircumcised, the Gentiles, was committed to Paul. Who do you suppose had the biggest constituency? In verse 8 it is stated clearly and without doubt that Paul and Peter were equal and there was certainly no primacy of anyone acknowledged. But that isn’t all.

At the first “Church Council” in Jerusalem, Acts 15, we find the apostles present at this meeting. Peter is there, and James is there, etc. We find Peter standing to speak and clearly stating in verse 10 and 11 that the Old Testament as well as the New Testament believers are saved apart from works despite the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. We find Barnabas speaking, Paul speaking, but the important and significant facts that should be noted here are that the apostle James presided over the council and not Peter, and it is clear in verse 19 that James, NOT Peter renders the decision at this council.

In Paul’s Epistle to the church in Rome, he made it clear that he would not even think of coming to Rome if another apostle had been there, yet alone the chief apostle (Romans 15:20). When he sends his greetings to the believers there, he mentions 27 people but never mentions Peter. Peter was not mentioned because he was not nor had he ever been there. Peter states in his Epistle that he was in Babylon and not in Rome. Which was only natural because he was the apostle to the Jews and not the Gentiles.

Furthermore, in Acts 8, it became necessary to send apostles to Samaria to confirm and establish the Gospel. We find in verse 14 that Peter was sent and not the person sending. The “Vicar” of Christ is not sent by the bishops, but he sends them.

In I Peter 5:1 the apostle, writing in 63 A.D., thirty years after the ascension of the Savior, said, “The elders which are among you I exhort, I WHO AM A FELLOW ELDER, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed.” Now Peter has had thirty years to contemplate Christ’s remarks in Matthew 16. He walked with Christ personally for three years and, three decades later has absolutely no understanding that he is a pope, a primate, a chief or anything except an elder in the church.

Surely Benedict XVI knows he is pope today, Peter never had a clue of his primacy, because there is no such thing as a pope in the Word of God.
 
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exodus:
Peter was not the vicar(wordly representitive) of Christ, the Holy Spirit is.

John 14

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Also Christ never instituted a pope heirachy.
42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. 45 For **even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. **
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Great quotes exodus! We Catholics use those same quotes, but we understand them in a completely different way!

In John 14 Jesus promised to send His Holy Spirit to guide the Church to all truths. If He sent it to us all individually to know all truths, then every Christian would agree on everything; but we don’t. Catholics believe it is the Holy Spirit that ultimately protects the Pope and the Church from teaching error.

As to the next Bible verse, one title for our Pope’s is “servant to the servants of God”. So we believe the Pope authority is ultimately the role of service to the rest of us. In that way he is suppose to imitate Christ.
 
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seetiger33:
If we take scripture put it together and say yes scripture is consistant. Yes there are no double meanings or falsehoods of the word of god. So look at all these scriptures were the rock is obviously God himself. So who is god? Jesus. Trinity. Of course you agree now look at all these scriptures. God is obviously the rock.

The Lord is my ROCK, and my fortress, and my deliverer. My God, is the ROCK of refuge. Psalm 18:2, 94:22.

God was their ROCK, and the high God their redeemer. Psalm 78:35.

Unto Thee will I cry, O LORD, MY ROCK; Psalm 28:1.

Bow down Thy thine ear to me; deliver me speedily: be Thou my strong ROCK, FOR A HOUSE of defense to SAVE me. for Thou art my ROCK and my FORTRESS; therefore for Thy name’s sake lead me, and guide me. Psalm 31:2,3).

I will say unto God my ROCK, why hast Thou forgotten me? Psalm 41:l0.

Lead me to the ROCK that is higher than I Psalms 61:2

He Only is my ROCK and my salvation; He is my defense; I shall not be moved. In GOD is my salvation and my glory: THE ROCK of my strength, and my refuge, is in God. Trust in him at all times, ye people, Pour out your heart before him; God is a refuge for us. Selah Psalm 62:6-8

To shew that the Lord is upright: He is my ROCK, and there is no unrighteousness in Him. Psalm92:15.

but the Lord is my defense; and MY GOD IS THE ROCK of my refuge. Psalm 94:22.

O Come, let us sing unto THE LORD; let us make a joyful noise to THE ROCK of our salvation. Psalm 95:1.

The stone which the builders refused is become the head of the corner. This is the Lord’s doing; it is marvellous in our eyes. Psalm 118:22, 23.

Therefore thus saith the Lord God: Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Isaiah 28:16.

Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto OUR GOD! He is THE ROCK, His work is perfect: for all his ways are judgement: Deuteronomy 32:3,4.

Then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed THE ROCK of his salvation. Deuteronomy 32:15, 18).

And he said: THE LORD IS MY ROCK, and my fortress, and my deliverer II Samuel 22:2.
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Scripture also calls Abraham the Rock, as well as Peter.
 
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gardenswithkids:
Great quotes exodus! We Catholics use those same quotes, but we understand them in a completely different way!

In John 14 Jesus promised to send His Holy Spirit to guide the Church to all truths. If He sent it to us all individually to know all truths, then every Christian would agree on everything; but we don’t. Catholics believe it is the Holy Spirit that ultimately protects the Pope and the Church from teaching error.

As to the next Bible verse, one title for our Pope’s is “servant to the servants of God”. So we believe the Pope authority is ultimately the role of service to the rest of us. In that way he is suppose to imitate Christ.
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You may see Matt 16 differently, but the interpretation doesn’t match with other NT Scripture, even Peter’s own words that he is a “fellow laborer”.

When was the last time a pope served instead of being served? If I’m a faithful Catholic will the pope serve me? Will he lay down his life for me like Christ did? Is he part of the trinity like the Holy Spirit(which is the vicar in my interpretation)? Since the pope is not part of the trinity, how could he be a vicar for Christ?
 
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