This is why you have to keep explaining yourself

[Cat]

I think it’s sad that many non-Catholics refuse to venerate Christians who have passed on.

But there are many who DO venerate them.

At the JAARS headquarters in Waxhaw, North Carolina, there is a garden devoted to Cameron Townsend, the founder of the Wycliffe Bible Translators (unless they’ve torn it down–I saw it in the 1980s).

There was a bust of Mr. Townsend in the garden, and many visitors, myself and my husband included, bowed their heads before that bust, or even knelt in prayer, out of respect and love for Cameron Townsend.

What’s wrong with that?

Many Christians visit the graves of their loved ones and kneel or stand in a posture of respect.

There’s a big difference between worship and showing respect.

 

[NonDenom]

How is it any different, Non-Denom? Do you know what is in a man’s heart when they pray before an icon? It is pretty apparent to me that Non-Catholic Christians like yourself think they know.

“Hey, that Catholic dude is bowing and worshipping the statue. Idol worshipper?” When in fact this Catholic is mediating on the life of the saint who live the Christian faith. He might even recite one of the 150 Psalms in the Bible before the image, or doing a liturgy of the hour.

God is never omitted. To truly understand why Catholics pray to Mary and the saints is to understand the Communion of Saints.

Our membership to the Church here does not end at death. It continues. If a man dies in Christ and goes to heaven, he is still a member of the Body of Christ. The term we use is Saints triumphant (those saints who were martyred for the faith, and died for the Blood of the Lamb).

The communion of saints is the key to understand the intecessory prayer of the saints. Icons, paintings, are use for reflection, and mediation. They are not the object of divine worship in the Catholic Church.

I have this last question to ask you and anyone else who has issues with this.

By what authority do you have to call Catholics idol worshippers, as if you know our hearts?

How can you look at this Prayer on not see that it is putting Mary before God? I don’t care how you put it, Praying to someone is not the same as asking someone to pray for you. I’m not trying to start a fight here, nor am I trying make people mad. I’m just expressing my opinion which the same thing you all are doing.
[/QUOTE]

 

[Mannyfit75]

How can you look at this Prayer on not see that it is putting Mary before God? I don’t care how you put it, Praying to someone is not the same as asking someone to pray for you. I’m not trying to start a fight here, nor am I trying make people mad. I’m just expressing my opinion which the same thing you all are doing.

Do you think when you die you won’t have a free will when you go in heaven? Suppose you die now in the state of grace, and you see your own family on earth still alive and just realized they are living unholy lives. There is only one way to ensure their salvation, you have to ask God and intecede for them in your behalf. Yes, Jesus is the One Mediator, but St. Paul said we are all mediators. We are co-workers… We help one another.

See the link I provided which include Scripture Proof text on Communion of Saints…

Are you just in heaven talking to God alone, or are their other saints there as well.

When we die, we keep our free will. Our soul has a free will. When we die, we still love those who loved us on earth.

I have said many poetic terms to express my love to my own natural mother, my sister, my brothers, my father, and my nieces and nephew? Does that make me guilty of placing them above God? How is that any different?

Do you believe that God is the God of the Living and Not the Dead?

Why did the Moses and Elijah appear to Jesus after he prayed. Surely, they heard them pray to them, or how about Peter telling Tabitha who just died to get up and she did.

You persume to know that Catholics put saints above God. We don’t. The prayer does not neglect God. Perhaps because you aren’t Catholic and you don’t understand. You are seeing this in the Protestant lense.

You read but do not understand. You want to understand why Catholics venerate Mary and the saints? You ought to look at the what the Communion of Saints is.

Only then you may understand if you open yourself up. What is the Communion of Saints?

On the Church, No. 49, Vatican II
At the present time some of (Jesus’) disciples are pilgrims on earth. Others have died and are being purified, while still others are in glory beholding “clearly God himself, three in one, as He is.”
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Section 1474
The life of each of God’s children is joined in Christ and through Christ in a wonderful way to the life of all the other Christian brethren in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, as in a single mystical person.

catholicapologetics.org/ap070100.htm

Communion of Saints can be broken into three parts:

The Christian Church, or Church Universal, is traditionally divided into:

the Church Militant (Ecclesia Militans), comprising Christians who are living,
the Church Triumphant (Ecclesia Triumphans), comprising those who are in Heaven, and
the Church Suffering (Ecclesia Penitens) or Church Expectant (Ecclesia Expectans), comprising those Christians presently in Purgatory. This last term is used mainly in Roman Catholicism.
These terms are often used in the context of the doctrine of the Communion of Saints; although Christians may be physically separated from each other by the barrier of death, they nonetheless remain united to each other in one Church, and support each other in prayer.

The Latin word militans has a primary meaning of “serving as a soldier, military”, but it acquired a secondary meaning of “to struggle, to make an effort”, which is the intended sense here. Christians on earth (the Church Militant) are still struggling against sin in order that, when they die, they might go to heaven and be members of the Church Triumphant, those who have triumphed over sin. However, if this struggle is successful, but not completely so, then after death they temporarily become members of the Church Suffering before ultimately joining the Church Triumphant.

The Roman Catholic Church commemorates the Church Triumphant and the Church Suffering on two consecutive days: All Saints Day on November 1 (the Church Triumphant), and All Souls Day on November 2 (the Church Suffering).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_militant

 

[mercygate]

How can you look at this Prayer on not see that it is putting Mary before God? I don’t care how you put it, Praying to someone is not the same as asking someone to pray for you. I’m not trying to start a fight here, nor am I trying make people mad. I’m just expressing my opinion which the same thing you all are doing.

Actually, the explanations on this thread are not “opinion.” They have pretty much stated the official teaching of the Church on the Communion of Saints. This is a far cry from “opinion.”

 

[Fidelis]

How can you look at this Prayer on not see that it is putting Mary before God? I don’t care how you put it, Praying to someone is not the same as asking someone to pray for you. I’m not trying to start a fight here, nor am I trying make people mad. I’m just expressing my opinion which the same thing you all are doing.

Again, you’re prejudices are keeping you from being objective. Notice that nowhere in this prayer is the petitioner expressing worship–it is all petition:

Hail Mary, poor and humble Woman, Blessed by the Most High! Virgin of hope, dawn of a new era, We join in your song of praise, to celebrate the Lord’s mercy, to proclaim the coming of the Kingdom and the full liberation of humanity.

Hail Mary, lowly handmaid of the Lord, Glorious Mother of Christ! Faithful Virgin, holy dwelling-place of the Word, Teach us to persevere in listening to the Word, and to be docile to the voice of the Spirit, attentive to his promptings in the depths of our conscience and to his manifestations in the events of history.

Hail Mary, Woman of sorrows, Mother of the living! Virgin spouse beneath the Cross, the new Eve, Be our guide along the paths of the world. Teach us to experience and to spread the love of Christ, to stand with you before the innumerable crosses on which your Son is still crucified.

Hail Mary, woman of faith, First of the disciples! Virgin Mother of the Church, help us always to account for the hope that is in us, with trust in human goodness and the Father’s love. Teach us to build up the world beginning from within: in the depths of silence and prayer, in the joy of fraternal love, in the unique fruitfulness of the Cross.

Holy Mary, Mother of believers, Our Lady of Lourdes, pray for us.

The only way you can equate this prayer with “worship” is to hold the erroneous notion that prayer is exactly the same thing as worship. This is where Protestants go wrong – in the truncated form of their own religion, prayer is the highest form of worship there is. They have no sacrifice or Mass (which Catholics offer to God ALONE), or anything that comes close. Worship to them is prayer and singing. That’s it.

Again, I ask you NonDenom, as in my previous post which you have so far ignored, be honest about these influences and predjudices that create these misconceptions, and try to look beyond them.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I also like to provide you the other links concerning the Communion of Saints:

catholicapologetics.org/ap070000.htm

I hope you read these with an open mind. My goal here is help you understand about the belief of the Communion of Saints.

This beliefs is founded in Scripture and Traditions of Christianity for over 2,000 yrs.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Originally posted by Church Militant;Yeah… It’s called Iconoclasm

It is clear that the prohibition is not iconoclastic as some preach, but based upon the intent of the one making and using the image. Since NO CATHOLIC EVER kneels down before any image to worship it we are not idolaters at all. We are not stupid enough to confuse a mass of rock, plaster, metal, or any other created thing with the almighty and ever living God of the Universe.

remnantofgod.org/pix/dagon_jpg_view.htm

Hi All
This is exactly why you guys have to answer questions on idol worship. I could see if these people were bowing before a statue of Christ, but they are bowing before a man. Pictures like this are the reason I like many others are not convinced.

What is the moral, Scriptural, doctrinal, psychological difference between:​

• an image of Our Saviour in the soul of a Christian
• a picture of Jesus Crucified
• a crucifix

• I can’t see any.

None of them is Jesus Christ as the Saints in Heaven see Him - they are all representations; not the reality.

The Bible is full of verbal imagery for God - Revelation 1 contains a description of Christ in Glory as our High Priest. It is not Our Lord Himself. Daniel 7 describes the Ancient of Days - it uses verbal imagery to do so, because God is indescribable; He is the Holy One, Whom no created being can know fully, but God Alone: the Son alone is capable of know fully, of appreciating fully, the God Who dwells in inaccessible light, whom man has not seen, nor can see.

What is in Isaiah 6, if not a wealth of verbal imagery trying to convey something of the Majesty of God ? The chapter is not itself the vision of Isaiah - it is a verbal representation of that vision, by means of symbolism.

The Ascension of Our Lord is described in imagery which emphasises that He is God - that is why the Cloud of the Presence of God is mentioned; it both conceals & reveals Him. The imagery says what words cannot.

So when we see an image of Christ Crucified, that conveys to us what Calvary is - it is not a description in words, but an image recalling the reality which it exhibits. The plaster & paint are not the main thing - the main thing is the reality to which they refer & which they reflect. That is why we keep saying that our attention terminates, not in the image, but in the thing imaged: in this case, the Passion of Christ

As for images of the Saints - the Saints’ holiness is that of Christ: they have none of their own, none that is not His. Their heavenly glory is a participation by created beings in the uncreated Glory of God. They have no reason to exist, if not to show forth His Glory, any more than any other creature has. To be drawn to a Saint, is really to be drawn to the God Whose Holiness is poured out on & in & through them. And it is that attraction which is fed by considering them - the image of a Saint is a means to help us focus on the Saint, that we may come to know the King of Saints more fully.

BTW - I can’t see why it is fine to have statues of public figures, but not of Saints. It seems so inconsistent. The Mother of God is a living & effective member of Christ - we know that by experience, & from what we have heard. We know what we mean when we honour her (even if onlookers do not ); because we are the ones who have experienced her. To know Mary, one must come to know Mary - & God alone can do that in us.

We know for certain that she loves God. But of how many politicians who are honoured with statues can this be said ? Again, great generalship is not to be despised, that would be ungrateful; but nothing in being a great soldier saves from Hell. All earthly empires pass away - they are of the world, & cannot outlast it; but the Kingdom of Christ in His Saints is an everlasting kingdom - His Glory & Honour will never fail

As for convincing you - we can’t. God alone can.

BTW - there are many foul things to see in the world. Why can we not fill our eyes & hearts with the splendour of God & His Saints as a counter to them ? Men become like what they attend to.

 

[mercygate]

And don’t forget: two thirds of the participants on these forums are former Protestants. We know where you’re comin’ from!

 

[Church_Militant]

Originally posted by Church Militant;Yeah… It’s called Iconoclasm

It is clear that the prohibition is not iconoclastic as some preach, but based upon the intent of the one making and using the image. Since NO CATHOLIC EVER kneels down before any image to worship it we are not idolaters at all. We are not stupid enough to confuse a mass of rock, plaster, metal, or any other created thing with the almighty and ever living God of the Universe.

remnantofgod.org/pix/dagon_jpg_view.htm

Hi All
This is exactly why you guys have to answer questions on idol worship. I could see if these people were bowing before a statue of Christ, but they are bowing before a man. Pictures like this are the reason I like many others are not convinced.You seem to forget that many of us revere Pope John Paul II as a saint. These people will simply be seeking his intercession. “Remnant”…is a SDA load of anti-Catholic propaganda and this, like most all of their stuff, is baseless.

Do Catholics worship the pope? No.
Do Catholics worship statues? No.
Does what the people in that picture are doing constitute idolatry? Not according to the Word of God nor the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Does RoG know what they are talking about. Absolutely not!

Hi All
Sorry, I should have worded it a little different, I’m married to a former Catholic and almost all of Her family are Catholic and they are wonderful people. The title of my thread was simply meant to show WHY you have to keep explaining yourself. The picture of people praying in front of the Minister is not something you would see at the church where I go.The pic of the Minister is also NOT in idol nor a statue, the other pic shows people bowing before a STATUE of the pope. People are more likely to believe what they see than what someone says and that is why IMO Catholics have to keep explaining themselves on this issue.

No we don’t. It was answered in council long long ago.

If you had read my original thread on iconoclasm you’d know full well that it actually evolved from Islamic fundamentalism akin to what the Taliban enforce today.

Iconoclasm is rooted in non-Christian religion.

How can you look at this Prayer on not see that it is putting Mary before God? I don’t care how you put it, Praying to someone is not the same as asking someone to pray for you. I’m not trying to start a fight here, nor am I trying make people mad. I’m just expressing my opinion which the same thing you all are doing.

In your most biased and ill informed opinion perhaps, but this is simply refuted because it is not the case. How many times to Catholics (good naturedly) have to laugh in your face when you (and others) offer this iconoclastic bunkum against the church.

If I tell you that I worship only Almighty God and that I do not worship Mary, the pope, or anyone else but Almighty God, then who are you going to believe? Faithful Catholics who know what we believe and why or some pack of anti-Catholics who author a website full of garbage that has so little basis in fact (case in point, http://www.remnantofgod.org/pix/baal-host2.jpg,

Eucharist

Chick makes the usual charges against the Eucharist. He doesn’t like the Real Presence and the sacrifice of the Mass in particular. He even says that the Mass is not mentioned in Scripture, despite the fact that the very first Mass occurred during the Last Supper (cf. Luke 22:19–20). The charges he makes have been answered many times.

What is distinctive about his approach is the attempt he makes to link the Eucharist with paganism. He claims: “On the altars of Egypt were sun-shaped wafers made of unleavened bread. These wafers were consecrated by the Egyptian priests and supposedly they magically became the flesh of the sun god, Osiris.”[52]) as to be classed as fiction?

The only reason we Catholics have to repeat ourselves is because you n-C/a-Cs are so gullible and lacking in knowledge.

 

[ferdie]

Fidelis;2318841]T **Nobody arrives at these misconceptions themselves just by reading the Bible-- it must be **
taught.

I thought non-catholics do not believe in tradition?

 

[Ignatius]

Originally posted by Church Militant;Yeah… It’s called Iconoclasm

It is clear that the prohibition is not iconoclastic as some preach, but based upon the intent of the one making and using the image. Since NO CATHOLIC EVER kneels down before any image to worship it we are not idolaters at all. We are not stupid enough to confuse a mass of rock, plaster, metal, or any other created thing with the almighty and ever living God of the Universe.

remnantofgod.org/pix/dagon_jpg_view.htm

Hi All
This is exactly why you guys have to answer questions on idol worship. .

This, from the same site, is exactly why you guys fail to discern the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

 

[VociMike]

Then it would seem that this picture shows people worshiping their preacher:

http://z.about.com/d/christianity/1/0/H/altarcall.jpg

Thank you for the perfect rebuttal to this never-ending foolishness.

But at least we are smart enough (and charitable enough) to avoid accusing these people of actually worshipping their pastor, or even their musicians for that matter.

 

[VociMike]

It’s beginning to look as though the Protestants have a bigger problem than we knew.

Praying to the pastor again?
http://www.seventhdaybaptist.org/images/7DB/Pictures/Tues kneeling.jpg

Praying to a building? Praying to icons?
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Umm, praying to umbrellas? A wall?
http://www.alabamaatheist.org/al/photos/graphics/030928_008.jpg

 

[twosweetgirls]

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9iby6Ldz...om/albums/mad04/MAD04_KA_Photos_040.sized.jpg
How terrible–these people are actually worshiping the FLOOR, of all things. What is this world coming to??

 

[VociMike]

And these people seem to be praying to each other

http://www.missionalive.org/assets/ma_pics/prayer_1.jpg

OK, I don’t want to seem to be mocking people who are praying to God (which I most certainly am not), so I won’t post any more pictures. The point should be obvious enough to anybody by now. People are triggered by all sorts of objects, events, settings to kneel and pray to God. We all should be thankful for their prayer, rather than trying to score debating points against the Catholic Church by their prayer. In fact, I think using pictures of people in prayer to God to accuse the Church or any group is bordering on blasphemous.

 

[Church_Militant]

All these pictures do is illustrate that any image can be taken to infer something that it actually does not. RoG just wants anything that it can find that can be used (even misrepresented!) to cast aspersions upon the Catholic faith.

In this light they are their own worst enemy in the same way that Jack Chick’s a-C tracts works against him with any person who actually combines a love for the Lord with God-given walking around sense.

 

[JoeyWarren]

And these people seem to be praying to each other

http://www.missionalive.org/assets/ma_pics/prayer_1.jpg

OK, I don’t want to seem to be mocking people who are praying to God (which I most certainly am not), so I won’t post any more pictures. The point should be obvious enough to anybody by now. People are triggered by all sorts of objects, events, settings to kneel and pray to God. We all should be thankful for their prayer, rather than trying to score debating points against the Catholic Church by their prayer. In fact, I think using pictures of people in prayer to God to accuse the Church or any group is bordering on blasphemous.

It looks more something like what pagans did. They all joined in a circle to perform their stuff…

Furthermore there is not one shred of evidence in the picture, that they are praying to God. For all we know they could be praying to Satan.

 

[tdgesq]

How many non-Catholic Christians can say that they have never formed an image of Christ in their mind while praying to Him? Idolatry?

Also, it is permissible for Catholics to ask for intercession of the souls in purgatory, although they may not be venerated.

 

[Wolseley]

You see a lot of this, too—Protestants worshipping the rafters of their church:

http://www.1stapostolic.org/images/praise99.jpg

(Of course, maybe that isn’t what they’re actually doing, and I’m merely slapping an interpretation on some observed behavior…just like some other people slap an interpretation on Catholics kneeling in front of statues. Do you suppose?)

 

[Tomster]

Nondenom,

How do you reconcile your beliefs regarding images when it comes to having photos of friends and loved ones in your home and on your person?