This is why you have to keep explaining yourself

[Vaclav]

The only reason we Catholics have to repeat ourselves is because you n-C/a-Cs are so gullible and lacking in knowledge.

Militant makes an excellent quote here and one I think that gets to the heart of the matter.

The truth is that most Protestants (in my experience, and I am a Protestant who converted to Catholicism) have no idea why Catholics do what they do. Nor, do they bother to really research or understand Catholicism.

So, they use the information that is most convenient to them. First, it is observation. Unless you are a high church Protestant, then Catholicism is going to appear really strange to you. Why? Because you may not use a set liturgy. You may only take communion twice a month, once a month, or less often. You may have an ordained preacher, or the men of your church may take turns preaching. On and on…

So then you may seek some answers to the many questions you have about the odd things you witnessed at a Catholic Mass (maybe you watched it on TV or something). If you are a Protestant, where do you go? You probably don’t go to the website of the Vatican, right? You might go to your preacher, or if you are more studious, you might look at what the early Protestants (or even current Protestants) have to say about Catholicism.

So by the time you get here, we are on the 2,000th thread of “Why do Catholics worship Mary, the Pope, and Damasus I’ mandible?”

 

[Lev23]

Come on, some of these last posts are sorta shallow, ya think? Umbrellas? Rafters? Preachers? Stairs? Beds?

I dont see any of these objects fashioned to be crowned or carried around or viewed as windows into heaven, etc.,etc., which Im sure the OP is probably trying to explain. So I dont see how these last pictures can be compared to pictures of people praying to statues or shrines. Not to be facetious either. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Lev23]

All these pictures do is illustrate that any image can be taken to infer something that it actually does not.

IMO, common sense would tell a person that these people were listening to a speaker and at a moment some knelt to pray where they stood and faced the same way they were standing up. Same could be said in a prayer circle or looking up into the sky towards heaven, no matter what physical object is in the way.

Big difference when photos show those veneration towards a specific statue, shrine, image, etc.

 

[VociMike]

Come on, common sense would tell a person that these people were listening to a speaker and at a moment some knelt were they stood and faced the same way they standing to pray. Same could be said in a prayer circle or looking up into the sky towards heaven, no matter what physical object is in the way.

Big difference when photos show those veneration towards a specific statue, shrine, image, etc.

You say it’s a big difference, because you want to see a big difference. If people can kneel and pray in front of a preacher or a building or a sign or a wall or each other, and not be worshipping those objects, why can’t people kneel in front of a symbol of the faith and pray and not be worshipping that object? There is no big difference at all. The only difference is that now you’re on the receiving end of the false interpretations, now it’s your ox that’s being gored, and you don’t like it.

 

[st_lucy]

Come on, some of these last posts are sorta shallow, ya think? Umbrellas? Rafters? Preachers? Stairs? Beds?

I dont see any of these objects fashioned to be crowned or carried around or viewed as windows into heaven, etc.,etc., which Im sure the OP is probably trying to explain. So I dont see how these last pictures can be compared to pictures of people praying to statues or shrines. Not to be facetious either. Just my 2 cents.

I don’t understand the differences. Can you please explain them t me. When I look at the pictures I see people praying. I cannot assume what they are praying or to whom, since it is just a picture after all. Do you see something else? Do you think there is something wrong with praying before an image of someone or something?

 

[NonDenom]

IMO, common sense would tell a person that these people were listening to a speaker and at a moment some knelt to pray where they stood and faced the same way they were standing up. Same could be said in a prayer circle or looking up into the sky towards heaven, no matter what physical object is in the way.

Big difference when photos show those veneration towards a specific statue, shrine, image, etc.

Hi Lev23
You are right in the fact that these other pics are of people praying, and I would bet they are praying to God himself (interesting concept). The picture I posted was People kneeling before a statue and praying to that statue (of a man none the less). These two illustrations are simply not the same. It has been my experience that when people are wrong or look bad they try and make fun of the other person so as to bring them down and make them look less credible. That is what is happening here.

 

[Fidelis]

Come on, some of these last posts are sorta shallow, ya think? Umbrellas? Rafters? Preachers? Stairs? Beds?

I dont see any of these objects fashioned to be crowned or carried around or viewed as windows into heaven, etc.,etc., which Im sure the OP is probably trying to explain. So I dont see how these last pictures can be compared to pictures of people praying to statues or shrines. Not to be facetious either. Just my 2 cents.

IMO, common sense would tell a person that these people were listening to a speaker and at a moment some knelt to pray where they stood and faced the same way they were standing up. Same could be said in a prayer circle or looking up into the sky towards heaven, no matter what physical object is in the way.

Big difference when photos show those veneration towards a specific statue, shrine, image, etc.

Common sense tells me you can’t know what’s in a person’s heart unless you ask them. As for decorating with flowers and processions, we do the same, respectively with the headstones of our loved ones and with the flag. Do we worship those too?

Why can’t you be honest about this? Using the same criteria by which you judged those people in the picture NonDenom provided (external appearance), would you or would you not say these people appear to be worshipping their Protestant minister?

Again, the only reason one can arrive at the conclusions you have about this is that these notions are preconcieved. *Scores *of Protestants have been indoctrinated into believing that Catholics worship idols and, when they see these pictures, then doggone it, that must be what they’re doing. Nobody arrives at these misconceptions themselves just by reading the Bible-- like most predjudice, it must be taught.

Be honest about these influences and predjudices that create these misconceptions. Only then will you be able to discuss this objectively.

 

[st_lucy]

Hi Lev23
You are right in the fact that these other pics are of people praying, and I would bet they are praying to God himself (interesting concept). The picture I posted was People kneeling before a statue and praying to that statue (of a man none the less). These two illustrations are simply not the same. It has been my experience that when people are wrong or look bad they try and make fun of the other person so as to bring them down and make them look less credible. That is what is happening here.

Interesting that you are willing to “bet” they are doing this or that. Do you know for sure? Like I stated before it is after all just a picture. Do you know that the eight commandment forbids us to bear false witness? Please explain how it is any different. I only see people praying. But you seem to see what no one else can see. What is going on in their minds and heart. Very interesting. Either God has put you in charge while he is away OR (could it be) that you are bearing false witness.

 

[Fidelis]

It has been my experience that when people are wrong or look bad they try and make fun of the other person so as to bring them down and make them look less credible. That is what is happening here.

Rubbish! Nobody made fun of you, just your erroneous idea.

If an idea is, in fact, ridiculous, such as the idea that Catholic’s worship statues, then that’s what it must be called.

 

[Vaclav]

Hi Lev23
You are right in the fact that these other pics are of people praying, and I would bet they are praying to God himself (interesting concept). The picture I posted was People kneeling before a statue and praying to that statue (of a man none the less). These two illustrations are simply not the same. It has been my experience that when people are wrong or look bad they try and make fun of the other person so as to bring them down and make them look less credible. That is what is happening here.

You are arguing from a perspective that presupposes how others are thinking and feeling. It is not logical.

More than that, you are using veiled (though not well-veiled) insults such as: “interesting concept.”

It boils down to this:

Prove that the individuals in the picture are not worshipping God, or alternatively that they are worshipping a statue.

Throwing allegations around, as you have, is no different than the pictures that the others have posted and that is the point they were trying to get you to see.

You are not a Catholic, yet you come here and throw down a picture and have the audacity to claim it as proof positive of idol worship? Can you not see what a bombastic and presumptive claim that is?

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Hi Lev23
You are right in the fact that these other pics are of people praying, and I would bet they are praying to God himself (interesting concept). The picture I posted was People kneeling before a statue and praying to that statue (of a man none the less). These two illustrations are simply not the same. It has been my experience that when people are wrong or look bad they try and make fun of the other person so as to bring them down and make them look less credible. That is what is happening here.

OK, so the picture of people kneeling before a man are obviously praying to God, and not the man before them…but people kneeling before a statue are obviously praying to the statue? Where’s the logic in that?

 

[Stephen_C]

It is all perception. That is to say if we believe that bible only Christians worship the bible. Then if we see a picture of someone bowing in prayer in front of the bible…then what we see is… It is all about the filters we use to view life. Until we can change those filters all the explaining in the world will do no good. So why do we need to change how we may pray sometimes when the misconception is due to a faulty filter?

You see what you want to see. So if you predisposed to believe Catholics pray to statues then I guess that is what you will see. Again nothing I can do about that. As long as I know what is going on when I pray….that is all that matters to me and God.

 

[VociMike]

OK, so the picture of people kneeling before a man are obviously praying to God, and not the man before them…but people kneeling before a statue are obviously praying to the statue? Where’s the logic in that?

It’s the logic of people who want to accuse, but who don’t want to be accused using the same standards and methods. It’s the logic of people who are used to going on the offensive, and don’t like being put on the defensive. It’s the logic of people who believe it is their right always to do the interrogating, and never have to sit in the hot seat themselves.

 

[Fidelis]

Originally Posted by Pixie Dust
OK, so the picture of people kneeling before a man are obviously praying to God, and not the man before them…but people kneeling before a statue are obviously praying to the statue? Where’s the logic in that?

BINGO!!

 

[JoeyWarren]

Hi Lev23 You are right in the fact that these other pics are of people praying, and I would bet they are praying to God himself (interesting concept).

You could bet, but that is all. You can’t prove without any reasonable doubt that they are not praying to Satan.

 

[djrakowski]

You are right in the fact that these other pics are of people praying, and I would bet they are praying to God himself (interesting concept). The picture I posted was People kneeling before a statue and praying to that statue (of a man none the less). These two illustrations are simply not the same. It has been my experience that when people are wrong or look bad they try and make fun of the other person so as to bring them down and make them look less credible. That is what is happening here.

This is the most revealing post NonDenom has made in this thread. There’s absolutely no shred of sense to what you’ve written above.

When you see a Catholic kneeling in prayer before a statue, you’re allowed to jump to the conclusion that the person is worshipping the statue, and yet, when we post pictures of non-Catholics kneeling in prayer before men, we’re not allowed to conclude that they’re worshipping those men?

This is apparently how NonDenom approaches ambiguous situations like this: when there’s something about a picture of Catholics in prayer that’s unclear, assume the worst. When there’s something about a picture of non-Catholics in prayer that’s unclear, assume the best. That’s blatant anti-Catholic bigotry.

Furthermore, I’d bet you anything that none of my Catholic brothers and sisters believe that the people in the pictures they posted are worshipping men. Those examples were posted to illustrate the absurdity of making assumptions based on your prejudices.

And, so what if those people were worshipping a statue? Every faithful Catholic on these forums would condemn them for doing so. You’re also going to have a hard time finding a doctrine of the Church that permits the worship of statues.

You’d do well to cut the snide remarks about praying to God being an ‘interesting concept.’ You know full well that we pray to God, and you also know that we’ve explained intercession of the saints about a billion times on these forums. If you don’t like our practice, it isn’t our problem. We’re secure in knowing our true intentions, and don’t need to justify them to you or any other protestor.

 

[Cari]

NonDenom,

When I used to teach, I quickly learned that when a difficult concept came up in my classes, my best tactic was to be prepared with a whole arsenal of different ways to explain it. One way wasn’t going to help all the students- I had to be able to teach it in different ways for it to be accessable to the different learners I had in class.

That said, see if this doesn’t help a little:

Many Protestants I know don’t understand Holy Obligation to attend Mass on Sundays. I’ve had more than one friend tell me that they’re closest to God when out in nature-why go to church? (but that’s a different thread ) They experience the most pure form of worship while out hiking a mountain trail, just them, God, and time spent reading the Scriptures. One friend of mine talks about a particularly special place, with a breathtaking view of the Smokeys, where she likes to sit (or, yes, sometimes kneel), read the Bible for a while, then meditate and pray. The sheer wonder of God’s creation inspires an intense and spontaneous desire to worship.

So it is with Catholics (and some Protestants, I’d wager) when coming across a breathtaking example of God’s creation- in this case, not a mountain, but in the faith exhibited by a Saint. Just as my Protestant friend goes to this particular mountain to be moved by God’s power, so do we become inspired when contemplating one of God’s servants. We are not worshipping the person (or the statue) anymore than I would think my friend was a pagan for worshipping a mountain. I do get a bit swoony when contemplating the enormous faith an 80-year old St. Polycarp demonstrated in the face of death. I do get a bit shivery when thinking about the willingness of St. Maximillian Kolbe to sacrifice his life for another. And, like many Catholics, I am moved to bad poetry and rhapsodies when thinking about a peasant girl from a backwater town who so willingly, so perfectly, demonstrated total trust and obedience to God and was thus chosen to bear the Incarnation.

The beauty in God’s earth has moved me to prayer, sure, but never like the beauty in God’s creatures who have been endowed with free will and saddled with Original Sin, yet have still served our Lord faithfully. But in neither case is that prayer to be confused with worship.

Cheers,
Cari

 

[tdgesq]

Hi Lev23
You are right in the fact that these other pics are of people praying, and I would bet they are praying to God himself (interesting concept). The picture I posted was People kneeling before a statue and praying to that statue (of a man none the less). These two illustrations are simply not the same. It has been my experience that when people are wrong or look bad they try and make fun of the other person so as to bring them down and make them look less credible. That is what is happening here.

Actually, that’s not what’s happening here. What’s happening here is that you are confusing concepts - badly. That is why everyone here but you sees how ridiculous your statements are. Let me clarify things for you.

Catholics venerate (not worship) saints and also ask for them to intercede (pray) on our behalf. So when you see someone kneeling at the foot of a statue of a saint, they may be venerating that saint, asking for that saint to intercede for them or others, or may just be praying to God. Let’s pretend that the person kneeling before the statue is asking for that saint to intercede for the person. The person is not praying to the statue, he is praying to the saint that the statue represents to intercede for him.

When you’ve prayed to Jesus, I would bet you’ve had an image of Jesus in you mind at times. Are you praying to an image in your mind then? Of course not, you are praying to what the image represents - Jesus Christ who sits at the right hand of the Father. Just like you are not praying to the image, Catholics are not praying to the statue. For you to continue to so assert is slanderous of your fellow Christians.

 

[Church_Militant]

Come on, some of these last posts are sorta shallow, ya think? Umbrellas? Rafters? Preachers? Stairs? Beds?

I dont see any of these objects fashioned to be crowned or carried around or viewed as windows into heaven, etc.,etc., which Im sure the OP is probably trying to explain. So I dont see how these last pictures can be compared to pictures of people praying to statues or shrines. Not to be facetious either. Just my 2 cents.

That :twocents: will get about 1.9 cents in change.

Get this through your head. Catholics do not pray to statues. Every time one of you n-Cs/a-Cs make that allegation you make yourself look like some kind of ignorant bigot. You cannot produce anything authentically Catholic that even implies we ever would.

IMO, common sense would tell a person that these people were listening to a speaker and at a moment some knelt to pray where they stood and faced the same way they were standing up. Same could be said in a prayer circle or looking up into the sky towards heaven, no matter what physical object is in the way.

Big difference when photos show those veneration towards a specific statue, shrine, image, etc.

Baloney! (With apologies to the luncheon meat). Veneration is anything but worship.

Hi Lev23
You are right in the fact that these other pics are of people praying, and I would bet they are praying to God himself (interesting concept).

If you say so…

The picture I posted was People kneeling before a statue and praying to that statue

(of a man none the less).I rest my case. ND knows how many times we have plainly and patiently explained this Iconoclastic junk, and yet he again alleges something that is 1) not anywhere near a Catholic belief or teaching, and 2) is most assuredly not what is going on in the picture.

These two illustrations are simply not the same. It has been my experience that when people are wrong or look bad they try and make fun of the other person so as to bring them down and make them look less credible. That is what is happening here.

Or…more accurately, they respond with good natured examples of the very same kind of fallacious thinking that you have displayed in the (apparently futile) hope that you might see through your own errant fallacies and drop this ridiculous allegation.

 

[Church_Militant]

Rubbish! Nobody made fun of you, just your erroneous idea.

If an idea is, in fact, ridiculous, such as the idea that Catholic’s worship statues, then that’s what it must be called.

This is the most revealing post NonDenom has made in this thread. There’s absolutely no shred of sense to what you’ve written above.

When you see a Catholic kneeling in prayer before a statue, you’re allowed to jump to the conclusion that the person is worshipping the statue, and yet, when we post pictures of non-Catholics kneeling in prayer before men, we’re not allowed to conclude that they’re worshipping those men?

This is apparently how NonDenom approaches ambiguous situations like this: when there’s something about a picture of Catholics in prayer that’s unclear, assume the worst. When there’s something about a picture of non-Catholics in prayer that’s unclear, assume the best. That’s blatant anti-Catholic bigotry.

Furthermore, I’d bet you anything that none of my Catholic brothers and sisters believe that the people in the pictures they posted are worshipping men. Those examples were posted to illustrate the absurdity of making assumptions based on your prejudices.

And, so what if those people were worshipping a statue? Every faithful Catholic on these forums would condemn them for doing so. You’re also going to have a hard time finding a doctrine of the Church that permits the worship of statues.

You’d do well to cut the snide remarks about praying to God being an ‘interesting concept.’ You know full well that we pray to God, and you also know that we’ve explained intercession of the saints about a billion times on these forums. If you don’t like our practice, it isn’t our problem. We’re secure in knowing our true intentions, and don’t need to justify them to you or any other protestor.