This Lent, eat meat on fridays!

[Detroit_Sue]

cameron_lansing:

Personally, I am of Scottish background. We have haggis (and you don’t want to know) and Saint Andrew’s Day. Though sometimes, my family pleas for a “dispensation” from family custom so that we don’t have haggis. Someone Irish will have to address corned beef and Ireland. Where I grew up it was the stuff of kosher delis.

Tell me, do you really enjoy the haggis, or do you eat it merely out of traditon? I saw it in a can at the World Market, and almost bought it. I’m not squeamish or anything, as I love menudo and escargot, but I really detest mutton. Tastes still “wooly” to me.

 

[JB]

Tazgurl21:

If you are Catholic its not ok to eat meat on fridays during Lent. Nor should you eat fridays on ash wednesday or on good Friday. I know my Faith. If your from another relgion i guess its ok.

The local Ordinary does have the authority to dispense from this obligation (that’s pretty much what this whole thread has been about.) If he has done so, then it is indeed OK for Catholics within that diocese to eat meat on those days from which this obligation is dispensed. Relevant references to Canon Law are noted below.

Can. 1249 All Christ’s faithful are obliged by divine law, each in his or her own way, to do penance. However, so that all may be joined together in a certain common practice of penance, days of penance are prescribed. On these days the faithful are in a special manner to devote themselves to prayer, to engage in works of piety and charity, and to deny themselves, by fulfilling their obligations more faithfully and especially by observing the fast and abstinence which the following canons prescribe.

Can. 1250 The days and times of penance for the universal Church are each Friday of the whole year and the season of Lent.

Can. 1251 Abstinence from meat, or from some other food as determined by the Episcopal Conference, is to be observed on all Fridays, unless a solemnity should fall on a Friday. Abstinence and fasting are to be observed on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.

Can. 1252 The law of abstinence binds those who have completed their fourteenth year. The law of fasting binds those who have attained their majority, until the beginning of their sixtieth year. Pastors of souls and parents are to ensure that even those who by reason of their age are not bound by the law of fasting and abstinence, are taught the true meaning of penance.

Can. 1253 The Episcopal Conference can determine more particular ways in which fasting and abstinence are to be observed. In place of abstinence or fasting it can substitute, in whole or in part, other forms of penance, especially works of charity and exercises of piety.

 

[redtech]

Dubervilles:

Personally I think I will just “celebrate” with the corned beef and cabbage a day early!

Thats what I would do… if I liked corned beef and cabbage. I’m of Irish heritage but YUCK.

 

[thechrismyster]

i know the canon allows for dispensation, but the laxity of it all by the clergy in the matter seems ridiculous. there is no need a person can’t wait a day before or after to eat beef. it’s more, in my mind, a case of mob rule, we’ll bend the laws because SO MANY people want them bent. and the rules on whats right and wrong should never change, and a simple St. Patricks day meal shouldn’t be enough to bend the rule.the “true meanng of penance” doesn’t mean in most cases, except where a population REALLY wants corned beef because its sooo tasty…

just my 2 cents

 

[Toni]

joyfulmess:

Anything the Catholic Church does is always going to be examined and re-examined by the public. We had a discussion about this very topic at our church meeting. After hearing both sides of it, I believe with the Bishops approval it would be ok according to the dispensation, however I feel that one does not have to participate. I think if we are firm in our beliefs, then we should be true to those beliefs and traditions.
Blessings :yup:

Well said. Unfortunately it is to easy sometimes to try to become holier than the church especially when we have so much dysfunction.

 

[QUICUMQUE_VULT]

I once saw A Bishop dispense from abstinence for a wedding during Lent.

One friday during lent, A non Catholic made Chicken and Andouille gumbo, and brought it to the Convent of the Sisters of the Holy Family. The Priest in charge dispensed all of us so we could eat it.
Like he said it would be A greater sin to throw it out!

 

[thechrismyster]

Toni:

Well said. Unfortunately it is to easy sometimes to try to become holier than the church especially when we have so much dysfunction.

i agree, being holier than the church is wrong. but so is, in my opinion, weakening her so that we are stronger because of her bending.
which is the whole corned beef thing in a nutshell.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

thechrismyster:

i agree, being holier than the church is wrong. but so is, in my opinion, weakening her so that we are stronger because of her bending.
which is the whole corned beef thing in a nutshell.

True, but if the Church has the authority to make such decisions, then I find her stronger, not weaker, for having exercised that right.

Why is it that when the Church does anything that “gives pain” to people we think she is all out here fixing a problem, but when a Church decision actually falls in favor of certain popular desires, she is caving in as if to peer pressure?

Skyscrapers are designed to bend in the wind, lest they break. I used to work downtown Chicago in the Standard Oil building, which is designed to sway some 2-3 feet in a high wind, and inside at times one can actually feel it, though barely.

If the Church is judged by how rigidly she can enforce her rules, then all bets are off because I’m quite sure the Church is capable of upholding her rules even unto death of heretics.

In short, I don’t see that flexible leadership necessarily means a weak leadership. Christ started this whole thing when he dissuaded the Church from carrying out the prescribed sentence against the prostitute. I don’t think he was trying to lessen the authority of the Church by asking it to cut her some slack, nor do I have trouble with this.

Of course, to those of us who went to Our Lady of Maximum Discomfort high school, it seems the Church has the game backwards. They are supposed to make it hard for us to be good, so that we may be miserable failures and come begging for repentence 24/7 in our hearts if not at the actual confessional. All of a sudden they are playing a game that many people like and we think the tables are turned.

Perhaps “unyielding” and “spoil our time” are attributes we expect the Church to uphold.

Again, though, it gets back to the fact that people have adopted practices as if they were critical. On the other side of my whole argument, is it disorienting to say one day not to do something under punishment of going to hell because it is obligatory, mortal sin, etc, then one day just say, “OK the weather is nice so we’ll take a day off.” It just goes to show how intrinsically important that fast was in the first place. What does the Church expect when she switches the game, but criticism?

Personally I think the Pauline view of things makes a lot of sense, not respecting certain days, not eating food sacrificed to idols, etc, are as nothing. We continue to do it, but with the authority not to do it. We as living beings are all subject to the principle of “learned helplessness” where people are held back for so long that when you take off their chains they are unable to move.

Alan

 

[pira114]

cameron_lansing:

A dispensation is a relaxation of a merely ecclesiastical or disciplinary law, and the diocesan bishop can dispense from those laws whether established universally or for his territory. He do this whenever he believes it will contribute to the spiritual good of the faithful (c. 87 §1). He is to have a just and reasonable cause and taking into consideration the circumstances of the case and the gravity of the law from which the dispensation is to be given.

This is an excellent point. It’s just a law created long after the death of Christ. If a dispensation is granted, why should it matter at all? I think it’s fine. If no dispensation were granted, it wouldn’t matter either. This whole thing seems inconsequential to me. Why can’t we eat meat on Friday’s anyway? I thought that was a carry over from the Old Testament, and we don’t have to follow any laws from the Old Testament.

 

[Gearoidin]

WanderAimlessly:

I think it is a Holy Day of Obligation in Ireland, but I do not know if there is a dispensation for meat. I am sure our Irish posters can clarify that.

PF

Yes, it’s a Holy Day of Obligation and yes, there is a dispensation for meat. I don’t know why everyone is talking about corned beef and cabbage I’m Irish, grew up in Ireland and I’ve never had corned beef and cabbage. Bacon and cabbage is common but not corned beef and cabbage.

Gearoidin

 

[Gearoidin]

Eden:

In Ireland the tradition is bacon and cabbage. Corned beef is not an Irish tradition at all. It’s an Irish-American tradition that dates back to the turn of the 20th century. Corned beef was less expensive for Irish immigrants in New York so they bought it from the local Jewish delis in place of bacon. You won’t find “traditional corned beef and cabbage” in Irish homes in Ireland.

Thank you for explaining this. I’ve always wondered why Irish Americans considered corned beef and cabbage a traditional Irish dish. I’ve never had it and I grew up in Ireland.

Gearoidin

 

[puzzleannie]

one essential purpose of discipline, mortification and penitential practices is to foster obedience, the mother of the other virtues. If in our eagerness to observe the letter of the disciplinary law we become critical of our superiors in religion, specifically our bishops, that purpose has been defeated, and we need to examine our hearts and conciences and consider the reason for fast and abstinence in the first place.

 

[WanderAimlessly]

Gearoidin:

Thank you for explaining this. I’ve always wondered why Irish Americans considered corned beef and cabbage a traditional Irish dish. I’ve never had it and I grew up in Ireland.

Gearoidin

I know. Even though I am from the US, usually when we had cabbage, it was with ham.

PF

 

[AlanFromWichita]

puzzleannie:

one essential purpose of discipline, mortification and penitential practices is to foster obedience, the mother of the other virtues. If in our eagerness to observe the letter of the disciplinary law we become critical of our superiors in religion, specifically our bishops, that purpose has been defeated, and we need to examine our hearts and conciences and consider the reason for fast and abstinence in the first place.

Hear Hear!

Alan

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

a_cermak:

Cardinal George dispensed this requirement the last time it came up too. His reasoning is that the Irish families gather together at St. Pats, some traveling to be with family, so in light of the family nature of the corned beef and cabbage he dispensed it.

St Pats is an institution in Chicago! It involves 2 parades (one for the pols, one for the folks), the dying of the Chicago river green, gallons and gallons of green beer, press coverage, and extra duty for cops to deal with DUIs and crowd control.

And let us not forget that the celebration in question also extends to the Diocese of Rockford, the Diocese of Joliet, and anyplace else the six collar counties border Cook!

Bring on the corned beef!!!

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

thechrismyster:

i agree, being holier than the church is wrong. but so is, in my opinion, weakening her so that we are stronger because of her bending.
which is the whole corned beef thing in a nutshell.

Sigh, sigh, sigh.

It has been explained to you that this is not some new innovation, out to “weaken” the Church. t has been going on not for years, or even decades, but for well over a century all over the United States.

So please- Don’t eat corned beef, or any other flesh meat, on St. Patrick’s Day. But please- don’t question the bishops. They have a rough enough time as it is.

 

[thechrismyster]

i know… you all work for the corned beef industry… i’m on to your tricks.
i completely understand the Bishops position, but to non-catholics, it weakens their view of the church. I’ve read “they won’t tackle clergy abuse, but the Bishops waste no time in allowing St. Patricks Day meals” my gut tells me it’s wishy washy, and i gotta go with my gut on this one. (as opposed to going with my gut for corned beef, which sounds mighty good right now. a friday BEFORE lent) (one last jab)

 

[axolotl]

pira114:

This is an excellent point. It’s just a law created long after the death of Christ. If a dispensation is granted, why should it matter at all? I think it’s fine. If no dispensation were granted, it wouldn’t matter either. This whole thing seems inconsequential to me. Why can’t we eat meat on Friday’s anyway? I thought that was a carry over from the Old Testament, and we don’t have to follow any laws from the Old Testament.

We don’t eat meat on Fridays as an act of penace, and as a sacrifice in memory of the death of our Lord on a Friday.

As Mark says:

The disciples of John and of the Pharisees were accustomed to fast. People came to him and objected, “Why do the disciples of John and the disciples of the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?” 19 Jesus answered them, "Can the wedding guests fast 13 while the bridegroom is with them? As long as they have the bridegroom with them they cannot fast. 20 But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast on that day.

 

[JB]

thechrismyster:

…but to non-catholics, it weakens their view of the church…

Why should it? Have they never had occasions in their own lives when special occasions were celebrated? Even if some might seize on this to harp about, why should we care? Remember the fable of ?

(Okay, that bowdlerization was unnecessary. The word is not obscene and was used correctly within context.)

 

[AlanFromWichita]

thechrismyster:

i know… you all work for the corned beef industry… i’m on to your tricks.
i completely understand the Bishops position, but to non-catholics, it weakens their view of the church. I’ve read “they won’t tackle clergy abuse, but the Bishops waste no time in allowing St. Patricks Day meals” my gut tells me it’s wishy washy, and i gotta go with my gut on this one. (as opposed to going with my gut for corned beef, which sounds mighty good right now. a friday BEFORE lent) (one last jab)

You are right that not dealing with seriuos issues makes the church look weak, and in fact rightly so because the weakness in those areas has been real. Weak enough, at least, so that the abuses and scandal were not stopped until outsiders forced their hands.

However, to me, when a leader grants an exception from his own rule, that is just as likely a sign of strength as wishy-washy. It’s not like they granted a dispensation from having to go to Mass on a holy day, but in fact the Church does that too when the holy day is on Monday or Saturday I think. To be a leader bound by one’s own red tape, on the other hand, is a sign of weakness.

If the rules changed frequently, I can see how it would be confusing to people. For a one-shot deal, it’s more about people griping than anything else. Why should we bind ourselves to our own rules, when the rules themselves allow for flexibility, just because we don’t want an outsider to know we have empowered ourselves this way?

It still is an interesting comparison. In the case of the priest scandal, I’m not sure whether it was about Church rules or civil law that they most flaunted. I hardly think anybody can look at the Church and consider her wishy-washy on rules, as we probably have more rules than anyone else on the planet.

Alan