This Wednesday, 8/6/2008, I will be leaving communion with the Roman Catholic Church

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If it’s the Orthodox Church that jesus founded, how come saint Ignatius of Antioch, who died in 107 (!), calls it the Catholic Church in his letters?
Simple really, I know I’ve posted this before somewhere.

For the first approx. 1000 years of Church History both the Eastern and Western Patriarchates: Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jeruselem used the two terms: Orthodox and Catholic interchangibly.

It wasn’t until around the time the Church of Rome separated herself from the other Apostolic, Historical Churches in 1054 by excommunicating herself from them that the terms “Catholic” and “Orthodox” came to primarily mean what then mean today:

Catholic now typically means the Church of Rome and those in union with Rome

Orthodox now typically means all of the other Churches - Russian, Serbian, Greek, Coptic, Antiochian, etc., etc.
 
Now, which heresies specifically were you alluding to?
Simple really, I know I’ve posted this before somewhere.

For the first approx. 1000 years of Church History both the Eastern and Western Patriarchates: Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jeruselem used the two terms: Orthodox and Catholic interchangibly.

It wasn’t until around the time the Church of Rome separated herself from the other Apostolic, Historical Churches in 1054 by excommunicating herself from them that the terms “Catholic” and “Orthodox” came to primarily mean what then mean today:

Catholic now typically means the Church of Rome and those in union with Rome

Orthodox now typically means all of the other Churches - Russian, Serbian, Greek, Coptic, Antiochian, etc., etc.
 
Yeah, if you say anything to yourself enough times you will believe it – doesn’t mean I will.
Just take an unbiased look at history and you will believe. It has nothing to do with repeating something over and over. **It has to do with historical fact. **

I’ll pray for you.
 
It is quite interesting that the Orthodox Church calls itself as the Catholic Church, since it is indeed the only Church then before Rome left Orthodoxy.
I kinda thought they kinda… left each other!
Not on theological matters, but on differences having to do with the culture and the non-acceptance of the other… unless the non-acceptance of one of them was motivated by anger toward the non-acceptance of the other.
The “theological reasons” came after that… Who left whom, really? How are you so sure?
 
Because, also, the Catholic Church certainly is no less orthodox than the “Orthodox” Church. You still haven’t told me which heresies… I am still waiting. Could it be that you don,t even know which?😉
 
I kinda thought they kinda… left each other!
Who left whom, really? How are you so sure?
Because of the Bull that the Rome Pope’s representatives dropped in Hagia Sophia Cathedral during Divine Liturgy in 1054 ad. Rome left the communion it had previously held with the other original 4 Patriarchates.

Learn history. It* is* important.
 
I like the way you think

Or…we could have an actual physical war here on Earth, and whichever Church wins would be the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church since God would clearly be on that Church’s side. I only kid of course.

I do wonder what would happen, however…I presume such a thing would be impossible as the Holy Spirit would not allow it to come to that.
No, we cannot do it on Earth, we’ve tried; it always ends in a stalemate. I’m telling you, we have to pray for battle between the Saints in Heaven, it’s going to have to come to blows, and when one of the Saints gets knocked out or roundabout kicked, THEN, and ONLY then, will we know. I mean, if we pray that Our Guy is able to, with enough brute force and the Holy Spirit, knock out The Other Saint, then, we know we got it. If we pray to the Holy Spirit the same prayer, but, it turns out He IS From the Father, THROUGH the Son, then, naturally, He will listen to the Orthodox, and our prayers will not work!

We can pray charitably that Our Saint will not only defeat but also humiliate the Other Saint in an all out match.

If we pray, maybe the Holy Spirit will allow Ultimate Fighting in Heaven between the Saints. With prayer anything is possible, and, it IS such a big deal after all. We’re getting nowhere arguing online because the Orthodox don’t know what the Catholic’s teach and the Catholics don’t know what the Orthodox teach and nobody is willing to listen, so, the only way for peace between the churches is the Battle of the Saints in Heaven. I think that is the only thing that will settle this matter maturely and amicably.
 
God bless you on your journey, and may you continue to follow Christ and obey Him in all things.
 
As I think I’ve said many times, I thank my Lutheran background for the grounding in scripture, etc. it gave me, not to mention my baptism.

As Bp. Job (a saintly man, worthy of all honor, and a convert from the Vatican) told my godson (an adult convert from Episcopalianism, son of one of their priests) “Don’t curse what you are coming from, for it brought you here.”
At least the Eastern Church hasn’t deviated as far from Biblical truth as the Latin Church has. As far as I know, while holding a view similar to the Lutheran, Episcopalian, and RCC view that Mary was sinless and a perpetual virgin you haven’t gone as far as to declare the immaculate conception as part of your doctrine – so there’s still hope.

Frankly, Lutherans and Episcopalians are barely protestants. They’ve been coddling up to Rome for decades, groveling for a bite at the apostolic succession apple. The whole idea of apostolic succession as its framed by both the Eastern and Western churches is just wrong. Frankly so much is apparent since it is used in furtherance of organizational supremacy.

Just read Polycarp, who advocated Presbyterian church governance (in his epistle to the Philippians). Not that there’s anything unbiblical about the episcopate; however, what is unbiblical is how you define the “church of Christ.”

The idea pushed by the RCC (and the EOC) is that a visible church was in view when we see mention of “oneness” in scripture. Frankly the terms visible and invisible are nonsensical. As if believers are invisible. The church of God is found in Scripture and no where else.

A plain understanding of Scripture is the only sound basis for church organization. When I read the earliest writings from those like Polycarp or the Didache it is clear that there were local churches with no central leadership. Elders, pastors, and deacons were chosen by the congregation. The laying of hands in ordination is a valid and right practice. However, the authority flows to church leaders from the congregation. Once anointed authority is bestowed over the congregation (like a Shepard is to his flock).

However, even then each Christian retains the duty to reproof the other in love. Church clergy (including elders or bishops) may be married. Icons may not be used in any way. Mary was a woman, born into sin under the law, bestowed with grace at the annunciation. We are saved by grace and not of our own will, efforts, or desires. It is a gift from God and no man can boast. We are all sinners, spiritually discerned, and without grace we retain no power over sin. We do not save ourselves, God saves us. We do not acquire faith, God is the giver of faith. We will not seek unless we were first regenerated by God.

God is sovereign, there is no other. His will shall be done. There’s no His will and our will, or only His will if we agree, the very idea is heretical. Is God our God or our co-equal partner? Do you really think we choose God? Do you really think your works can win favor with God outside of faith? The Pharisees thought the same thing …
 
Citation, please. I ask because it is generally agreed that Andrew was the younger brother, not the elder.

Paul
Hum… Paul, I don’t wish to contradict you, but I believe Andrew WAS Simon Peter’s elder brother… Wait a minute! All I find is “his brother”… it doesn’t say younger or elder!
Or in which passage? 😊 :o 🙂 😃
 
You may be too excited and happy! :extrahappy: :dancing:

Hope to see you on the other side of the fence.

I know from experience that sitting on top of a fence for long can get mighty uncomfortable. Just go through the gate is much easier 😉

A few authors to read to balance out what I am sure you have already read from the Catholic perspective:
Clark Carlton
Frank Schaeffer
Michael Whelton
Fr. Theodore Pulcini
I’ve actually read all of their books - including Schaeffer’s novels. Were you aware he’s now a left-wing Democrat who supports Barack Obama? 🙂
 
Actually, this isn’t entirely accurate. There was a split that was earlier than the one between the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church. The churches that arose from that split are called Oriental Orthodox, and they are as apostolic in origin as the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox.

In the early Church, before there was any split in the apostolic churches, there arose five patriarchates: Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem. St. Peter was the first bishop of both Rome and Antioch (that the bishop of Rome is the successor of Peter as to his special Petrine ministry is an argument for another time), St. Andrew founded the church in Constantinople (originally Byzantium), St. Mark was the first bishop of Alexandria, and St. James was the first bishop of Jerusalem.
According to the traditions preserved in Eusebius "The Throne [Eusebius uses this term only of Jerusalem, though he talks of Rome] of James, who first received the episcopate of the church at Jerusalem from the Saviour himself and the apostles, and who, as the divine records show, was called a brother of Christ, has been preserved until now, the brethren who have followed him in succession there exhibiting clearly to all the reverence which both those of old times and those of our own day maintained and do maintain for holy men on account of their piety. So much as to this matter. [St. Epiphanius records that this throne is that which God promised a son of David would always sit on his throne in Jerusalem, for which:] 2. Then James, whom the ancients surnamed the Just on account of the excellence of his virtue, is recorded to have been the first to be made bishop of the church of Jerusalem. This James was called the brother of the Lord, because he was known as a son of Joseph…“For they say that Peter and James and John after the ascension of our Saviour, as if also preferred by our Lord, strove not after honor [or belief, Doxa], but chose James the Just bishop of Jerusalem.”…4. But the same writer [St. Clement], in the seventh book of the same work, relates also the following things concerning him: “The Lord after his resurrection * imparted knowledge to James the Just and to John and Peter, and they imparted it to the rest of the apostles, and the rest of the apostles to the seventy,…Paul also makes mention of the same James the Just, where he writes, “Other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother.”
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.xii.xx.html
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.vii.ii.html
Now if we are to trace the lines of succession to the first bishops we find that for Antioch the best claim to the succession probably goes to the Oriental Orthodox (Syrian Orthodox).
If you trace those lines (and I’m including the 4 lines that the Vatican has in Antioch, in addition to the EO and OO), they all go back to St. Meletius, who was not in communion with Rome. Rome’s man in Antioch at the time, Paulinus (follower of Patriarch Eustathius, who had been deposed for adultery. Paulinus ordained Jerome, whose letter to Pope Damasus on the matter of whom Rome recognized survives), ordained a line which died out.

Btw, it is an open secret that both EO and OO Patriarchs, both named Ignatius, have an agreement that at the death of one his synod drag their feet or refuse to elect a successor so the remaining can act as Patriarch of all Orthodox Antioch. They are in open communion with each other, as I openly participated when I was in Syria.
As for Alexandria, clearly the successor to St. Mark is the Coptic Pope, also of the Oriental Orthodox communion.
Both Popes (a title denied their Vatican counterparts, although the Church confered this title centuries before Rome took it) have implemented agreements for mutual recognition and communion (though, admittedly, not officially openly one communion yet).
The Eastern Orthodox communion probably has the best claim for Jerusalem, and it has the only claim for Constantinople. The legitimate line for the bishop of Rome is, of course, Catholic.
Actually, the EO have the only claim for Jerusalem: the Armenians and Syriac are there only on behalf of their Churches inerests in the Holy Land. The Coptics historically depend on the Syriacs there. The Armenians do have a Catholicos in Constantinople, a relic of when it was the capital, and for the same role as their bishop in Jerusalem. No competing claims.
So, it really isn’t accurate to say that Rome split off from the other apostolic churches in a way that suggests that all of those other apostolic churches are to be found in Eastern Orthodoxy. It seemed to me important to point that out.
And since all the others continue to use the original Creed without filioque, the reason why Rome split, your point was?*
 
At least the Eastern Church hasn’t deviated as far from Biblical truth as the Latin Church has. As far as I know, while holding a view similar to the Lutheran, Episcopalian, and RCC view that Mary was sinless and a perpetual virgin you haven’t gone as far as to declare the immaculate conception as part of your doctrine – so there’s still hope.
still hope…that one day they will declare this truth:

but they haven’t formally denied the IC either.

We can find hints of it in Scripture/Tradition/ECFs nevertheless.

Anyways, Sola, you are not one to talk, you don’t have Tradtion or a teaching authroity, or even a Bishop for that mattter!
 
Because of the Bull that the Rome Pope’s representatives dropped in Hagia Sophia Cathedral during Divine Liturgy in 1054 ad. Rome left the communion it had previously held with the other original 4 Patriarchates.

Learn history. It* is* important.
What makes you say from THAT event that it was Rome that left the communion? I am willing to learn history, but maybe we all should learn how to properly read it… on both sides of the fence!
 
Yes, it is too bad. But the split was more political than anything else. If you doubt it, research the question, and you’ll notice a curious correspondence between the East-West split in the Church and the border between the Eastern and Western Roman Empires.
Yes, the Normans and Germans were invading the Empire of the Romans, suppressing the Eastern rites and imposing the Latin mass and filioque in Greater Moravia and Southern Italy and Sicily, and Latin missionaries introducing the filioque into Bulgaria.
 
You’re right there’s no such thing as a stupid question but there is a such thing as a loaded question. Maybe I just misunderstood what you were saying. I read “why don’t you accept Peter” to be tantamount to when Protestants ask Catholics “why don’t you believe the Bible?” Both of those questions sound extremely loaded to me. Acceptance of Peter has nothing to do with it, the exaggerated claims of the papacy does. 👍

I’m sorry of I misunderstood your question.

Yours in Christ
Joe
For the Orthodox, I’m glad for you clearing up the misunderstanding, and your apology.
 
At least the Eastern Church hasn’t deviated as far from Biblical truth as the Latin Church has. As far as I know, while holding a view similar to the Lutheran, Episcopalian, and RCC view that Mary was sinless and a perpetual virgin you haven’t gone as far as to declare the immaculate conception as part of your doctrine – so there’s still hope.
Hope in Orthodoxy becoming Protestant? Will never come, I am sorry to say.
The whole idea of apostolic succession as its framed by both the Eastern and Western churches is just wrong. Frankly so much is apparent since it is used in furtherance of organizational supremacy.
I really think you should open a new thread about your issues, since that would be more appropriate.
The church of God is found in Scripture and no where else.
500 years of Protestantism and yet Protestants have congregations and pastors, too. Looks like the invisible church notion hasn’t really caught up yet…
Icons may not be used in any way.
This is strange, because there were icons as early as the 2nd century, and beautiful as well. The catacombs were adorned with icons. It was very much a part of early Christianity.

You have many issues. Like many here said, open a thread where your issues will be properly addressed. The thread is about Christy’s joining the Orthodox Church, so it should remain as such.
 
Because, also, the Catholic Church certainly is no less orthodox than the “Orthodox” Church. You still haven’t told me which heresies… I am still waiting. Could it be that you don,t even know which?😉
Could it be that we’ve already beat that dog to death?

“Supremacy” rather than primacy of Rome - not found historically. Primacy, per history is due to the fact that Rome was the Secular Capitol of Rome - had nothing to do with the person of St. Peter. Remember that St. Peter founded the Church in Antioch prior to stepping foot in Rome 3 years before his death. So if it had to do with his person, then the Catholic Church would be claiming both sees as the “vicar of Christ”

Filioque - a Latin word added to the Nicene-Constantinoplian Creed which is not only wrong in it’s Theology (an attempt at saying that God the Father is not the Eternal Source of the Most Holy Trinity with Jesus being Eternally Begotten of the Father and the Holy Spirit Eternally Proceeding from the Father - but rather that the Holy Trinity has two Eternal Sources: The Father and the Son and that the Holy Spirit Eternally Proceeds from both of them - this is not only wrong, but disrespectful of the Holy Spirit as it attempts to lower the Holy Spirit), but also was wrong in adding it to the Creed as once the Creed was in it’s completed form 2 separate Church Councils condemned any addition or ommission from the Creed - that anyone who would dare such a heresy would be anathema.

Purgatory - the Roman Church came up with this idea that because we as Christians have always prayed for the dead that somehow there are 2 Fires. The Eternal Fire of God and a Temporal Fire - again, not a part of historical Christianity

Limbo & Immaculate Conception - both developments from the misunderstanding of Original Sin and it’s affects on the rest of the human race born into this world. Developments derived primarly from mistranslations into Latin from Greek.

Papal Infallibility - developed from the continued misunderstanding of the role of each of the Patriarchates. One Pope, which I could remember his name off the top of my head, in either the late 1800’s or early 1900’s even claimed in an encyclical or letter that He was God on Earth - sounds more Ancient Egyptian than Christian. Even the Old Catholics broke away from Rome at that point.

Plus just look at the results, since Rome has removed herself from communion with the rest of the Church she has given birth to more than 30,000 different denominations! While the Orthodox continue to remain One Church.
 
At least the Eastern Church hasn’t deviated as far from Biblical truth as the Latin Church has. As far as I know, while holding a view similar to the Lutheran, Episcopalian, and RCC view that Mary was sinless and a perpetual virgin you haven’t gone as far as to declare the immaculate conception as part of your doctrine – so there’s still hope.
What is wrong in that doctrine? Mary, according to that doctrine, was saved just as the rest of us. Only, she was saved in advance, right at conception. Don’t the Eastern Churches believe the same thing?🙂
 
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