Thomas Jefferson Statue Torn Down at Portland High School

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Which is why I am not a capitalist. They will cheerfully stab you in the back in pursuit of the dollar.
 
Regular_Atheist said:
I think a lot of the support for this movement is a product of the progressive wing of capital trying to reinvent itself. Past “evils” such as colonialism and slavery weren’t products of unenlightened individuals or personally evil individuals, but were essential to the early development of capital. “Progressives” jumping on the movement against honouring past American “evils” gives them an alibi for all of this, it allows capitalism to be separated from its past which was built on colonialism and slavery. This doesn’t mean that anyone is consciously unravelling a political agenda though.
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I(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) It is not just about capitalism. It’s about keeping power and steering the nation.
 
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He was not a faithful husband as I understand it …

AND PLEASE - Do not get me wrong, I think he was a great American and accomplished much to advance the nations consciousness around civil rights. His peaceful protests did more to unite the country during a divisive time than riots, looting and murder have. I would never remove the monument to MLK

But it seems as if there are some who want a purity test for those who have statues erected to their accomplishments and we are to judge them not in total to their lives but to the one misdeed, one error, one aspect that someone can take exception to … with that mind set - at some point that monument to MLK will fall … maybe not now, maybe not soon, but some day …there will be someone who will take exception, offense and they will destroy his monument. Or they may do it out of ignorance as some of the monuments to other African Americans that have been defaced … obviously history is not being taught well …
 
Sarcelle said:
I actually know more people who think that all religions are bunk and are a scourge on mankind.
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I’d say a worrying trend in Europe and some in America, more pronounced in some parts of the USA, is to have these kinds of views, agnostic or what have you. I’ll bet the ones who say that to you are mainly white though, clearly, they can be of other ethnic backgrounds.

“Losing our religion” is a major crisis in the West, I didn’t mean to get off on this tangent. That’s all I will say on this.
 
I would really study TJ before pillorying his reputation, he did a lot of good too, as far as that goes… if one believes in America, helped get France on our side, was a rather progressive thinker.

A lot of these men too, I wouldn’t forget, are products of their times, they grew up in a world with slavery. We really can’t compare ourselves nowadays to the days of the Roman Empire, etc. etc.
 
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I was responding to the taking down monuments because people dont like certain aspects of the person being honored - and the discussion about why a monument was erected.

The Jefferson Memorial was not raised because Jefferson owned slaves, raped slaves or was a drunkard. It is not a memorial to maintaining slavery in America. The memorial commemorates the creation of a country whose founding documents [of which he played an important role in authorship] was historic and unique. An in fact enshrined positions that were imperfectly lived during his lifetime but set in our foundation an aspiration - for example “All men are created equal and endowed by their creator”

Similarly - someday other statues may fall out of favor and every person may become the target - because all people are far less than perfect can fall prey … or just out of ignorance as I noted …
 
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I think it’s interesting that you don’t consider yourself a capitalist, but I don’t believe any kind of “third way” exists outside of capitalism and communism. If you are a nationalist then you are a capitalist.
 
JanR said:
I’ve suspected that for quite some time. They want to take over us all and dictate every aspect of our lives to us. It’s power, power, power, to them. That’s all they care about – absolute power. Their way, or no way.

And, we had all better wake up to that, while we still have some say in what happens to our country, our society, and ourselves.

I still hope there are enough reasonable people out there who can prevent this.
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Yes, and I pray that freedom loving people do not stick their heads in the sand…but stand up and let their voices also be heard…
 
You are insisting that TJ raped his slave and no where give thought that she might have been a willing woman. The book I read and I’m sorry I don’t remember the title… indicated that she was more his “lover” than his victim???
 
I wasn’t there but I know 16 year old girls who do “love” people they shouldn’t…
 
Here in our day and time, maybe. But it wasn’t always so…
So, we are going back with our laws and norms of today and judging the people over 100 years in the past…
Didn’t Jesus say there’s plenty evil of the day or something. The sins of the fathers will not be visited on the sons??? Oh I’m not a biblical scholar, but I do love Jesus!
 
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We can attempt a reasonable guess.

Do you think a 16 year old girl who was raised as a slave, as property, with no sense of her own self-worth and dignity, not even recognized by others as human, can reasonably object to her master’s whims?

Even with children who are not slaves, there is still such a thing as grooming you know?
 
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Sarcelle said:
We can attempt a reasonable guess.

Do you think a 16 year old girl who was raised as a slave, as property, with no sense of her own self-worth and dignity, not even recognized by others as human, can reasonably object to her master’s whims?

Even with children who are not slaves, there is still such a thing as grooming you know
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Not condoning this or saying that she consented, have no idea but we are looking from a 2020 lens.

You do realize that age of consent laws are a modern idea.
Near the end of the 18th century, other European nations began to enact age of consent laws. The broad context for that change was the emergence of an Enlightenment concept of childhood focused on development and growth. This notion cast children as more distinct in nature from adults than previously imagined, and as particularly vulnerable to harm in the years around puberty. The French Napoleonic code provided the legal context in 1791 when it established an age of consent of 11 years
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Thbolt said:
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petra22:
You are insisting that TJ raped his slave and no where give thought that she might have been a willing woman. The book I read and I’m sorry I don’t remember the title… indicated that she was more his “lover” than his victim???
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Since she was a slave and under the age of 18 when they started having sex, do you reasonably think that she could consent?
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In those days, the rules were different. Girls often married at age 12, so Sally having been under 18 wouldn’t have legally prohibited any man from having sex with her. Being a slave, it wasn’t necessary that he marry her. In fact, it would have been scandalous if he had. In those days, it was assumed and accepted that masters had sex with their slaves. This wasn’t controversial back then.

Thomas Jefferson’s wife died in childbirth, and he never remarried. Of the five children that were born to him by his wife, only two daughters, I believe – maybe three – survived to adulthood. In those days, giving birth could actually be dangerous.

He may have been in love with Sally, who knows? Being she was a slave, he didn’t dare try to marry her. We must look at these things in the context of the times in which they occurred.
 
I can oppose international capitalism and globalist communism. The Church has always sought middle ground between the extremes.
 
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