Thomas Keating has a lot of nerve!

  • Thread starter Thread starter kingmeatloaf
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
That is very helpful, thank you. I have read one of Fr. Phillipe’s books and found it to be lovely. Perhaps I’m looking for “method” too much, as I got so accustomed to relying on sitting practice in zen. I’ve been moved by the words of many gifted writers, but am struggling to find a practical way to implement their words. St Ignatius was methodical, and his exercises are a step in the right direction for me, but I’ve gotten the most out of prayer that has a physical aspect to it, like the rosary, as well as the Jesus prayer with the prayer rope. The movements of the mind during these forms of prayer suggest to me I need more structured guidance, but my priest doesn’t have time to be my spiritual director, and Covid has made it difficult to go on a retreat or anything like that, which is why I found centering prayer attractive, since there are so many books. I thought maybe I could join a centering prayer group on Zoom or Skype. But Fr. Keating misquoting scripture right off the bat… that’d be akin to a priest intentionally misquoting scripture during mass. The trust would be severed, and I’d leave mass and never go to that priest’s masses again. Very disappointed in Fr. Keating
 
kingmeatloaf said:
I got my information on page 173 of the most recent edition “Open Mind, Open Heart” in the appendix, where it lists the specific practices of group centering prayer. Check it.
Click to expand...
One can practice cent. prayer in groups, just as one can run in groups, but as with running, the method is a solitary activity. And, again, it does not advocate focusing on breathing or focusing on anything else. Even the “sacred word” has a specific utility—to clear the mind of all thoughts and return one to a place of receptivity to the presence of God. See here.
kingmeatloaf said:
Forgive my cynicism, I’m sure you’re very sincere, I just feel like I’ve heard all this before and my “buddha radar” is buzzing.
Click to expand...
If you know the history of Fr Keating’s time as rector in MA, there is no secret here. It is public knowledge that Fr Keating brought in Buddhist and Hindu meditation teachers at many times. An enormous aspect of the genius of Catholicism has always been its ability to assimilate the good in other faiths and practices. Why would it possibly matter if Buddhist meditative practice is close to cent. prayer?
 
Fauken said:
Have you considered looking into Carthusian or Trappist spirituality?
Click to expand...
I’ve read a good bit of Merton, and I have a copy of the two volume “The Trappist Option”, which is a bit dense for me to navigate. Any suggestions as to where to start?
 
kingmeatloaf said:
But as I pointed out, as well as the people above, Fr. Keating has clearly and purposefully misquoted scripture as a means to drive home some point that isn’t present in Jesus’ words. As a centering prayer practitioner, how do you justify this?
Click to expand...
You took issue with his adding the word “innermost” to an English translation. Is that it? I have seen that verse translated as “deny himself utterly.” (DBH NT) I don’t see the problem that you do. How exactly should one deny himself? Superficially? Only one certain part of himself? Or the whole self? I’m confused as to what is exactly the problem.
 
Yes, the Jesus Prayer and the Rosary are two ways to which I am also devoted. I pray the rosary every day when I take my morning walk, and it certainly helps to keep my mind from wandering off, as mine definitely tends to do. I turn to the Jesus Prayer throughout the day. It’s been part of my life for so long now that my mind just automatically goes there whenever I have a spare moment.

Getting back to The Cloud, the late English Benedictine John Main based his Christian Meditation both on The Cloud of Unknowing and on the Conferences of St. John Cassian. Someone already mentioned the Desert Fathers, and St. John Cassian, in the Tenth Conference in particular, handed down the ancient teaching on silent prayer which he learned from the Desert Fathers. It is like the Jesus Prayer in that you slowly, interiorly, repeat a prayer word or phrase to help quiet and focus the mind. Cassian recommended the phrase from the Psalms, “O God come to my assistance, O Lord make haste to help me,” while John Main recommended the Aramaic word Maranatha (Come, Lord).

I have to say that I also never made it very far reading Fr. Keating, though not for your specific reason. His way of thinking just didn’t connect with me. I have a greater affinity for John Main, though he also first learned to meditate from a Hindu teacher before he joined the Benedictines and discovered The Cloud of Unknowing and St. John Cassian. He has left us many books on silent prayer and Christian Meditation that you might also look into.
 
Magnanimity said:
Why would it possibly matter if Buddhist meditative practice is close to cent. prayer?
Click to expand...
Again, I’d point to Fr. Keating’s misquoting scripture to drive home his own point. I suppose it matters to me because of the fruits I’ve seen come from zen has made me sensitive to it. Zen seeks freedom from suffering, and all forms of its practice reflects this (sitting, walking, koans, etc.). Christ VALIDATES and sanctifies suffering, knowing that freedom from suffering is not something to be attained this side of heaven, but only in the beatific vision. I guess my aversion to buddhism being found in christian practices is a big red flag to me that christians are moving away from our Lord’s reaction to suffering and more towards the Buddha’s (I speak of suffering because it is the root of buddhist thought, and is inseparable from both buddhism and Christianity).
 
kingmeatloaf said:
Zen seeks freedom from suffering, and all forms of its practice reflects this (sitting, walking, koans, etc.). Christ VALIDATES and sanctifies suffering, knowing that freedom from suffering is not something to be attained this side of heaven
Click to expand...
That is entirely correct and an important (fundamental) difference between Christianity and Buddhism. But it wasn’t just cessation of suffering. The Buddhist way is a vehicle for aiding one in detachment (since it’s attachment itself that often leads to suffering). And detachment is compatible with Christianity—probably even part and parcel to it. Denying oneself, the last will be first, emptying oneself (“let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus…”) all fundamental to Christianity. But suffering as illusion? Nah…
kingmeatloaf said:
I guess my aversion to buddhism being found in christian practices is a big red flag to me that christians are moving away from our Lord’s reaction to suffering and more towards the Buddha’s
Click to expand...
I doubt there is anything to fear here. There is no slippery slope that I can see between cent. prayer and Buddhism.
 
Magnanimity said:
You took issue with his adding the word “innermost” to an English translation. Is that it? I have seen that verse translated as “deny himself utterly.” (DBH NT) I don’t see the problem that you do. How exactly should one deny himself? Superficially? Only one certain part of himself? Or the whole self? I’m confused as to what is exactly the problem
Click to expand...
The problem is not the words themselves, but the motive behind adding words in general.

His focus in the next sentence was on the word “inmost”, not the rest of Jesus’ words. Therefore he only added the word so he could talk about it and he never once mentioned that he’d added this word. He just presumed his reader wouldn’t notice I guess…?

It’d be the same thing as me (if I were a priest) preaching quoting John 3:16 to people saying “God so inwardly loved the world that he gave his only Son”, and not even mention I’d added a word. Not technically wrong, right? But if a priest told me this I would no longer give him any credibility, because it seems he’s willing to compromise scripture for some unknown motive. Maybe I’m wrong, but the trust is a bit severed to say the least.
 
Lectio Divina and rosary are great but his advocating to use them doesn’t change fact that he propagated problematic Centering prayer. Rosary and Lectio Divina existed long before him.
There are also his error Scripture interpretations, wrong teaching on Eucharist, God and many other things.

There are many people who mix Christianity with beliefs incompatible with it. That doesn’t change fact that they are erroneous in their beliefs/teaching. It cannot be justified with praying rosary or asking intercession of saint.
 
Last edited:
Magnanimity said:
I doubt there is anything to fear here. There is no slippery slope that I can see between cent. prayer and Buddhism.
Click to expand...
Maybe. Unless one finds all he needs in the methods of solitary centering prayer. Without proper guidance (especially if that guide is a priest who is willing to edit the words of Jesus, as Fr Keating has done) I’d be concerned someone could become more attached to the method moreso than the sacraments, if it gave him enough inner peace, just as I once did with zazen practice. My sensations of inner peace were my god. I could easily see a Christian falling for this if the method is rewarding enough. I digress I suppose, sorry.
 
Last edited:
We constantly have these kinds of arguments on here over some particular Eastern-influenced practice and is it dangerous or wrong, or not.

I think it is best to just accept that some Eastern-influenced practices are going to work fine for some people and not so fine for others.

There are likely people who are not going to slide into Buddhist practice from going to centering prayer group that uses Fr. Keating’s method once a week. There are likely people who skipped right over that word “inmost” and the discussion of it in Fr. Keating because they were in a hurry to get to the next part.

On the other hand, someone who is trying hard to avoid certain practice because they are a convert or because they had a bad experience in the past with zen may well be super sensitive to this stuff. But that doesn’t mean it’s going to affect everybody in the same way.
 
Fair enough. I suppose my real purpose for this post is looking for alternatives to centering prayer (as well as lamenting a bit) that don’t compromise scripture or the sacraments.
 
Magnanimity said:
I have seen that verse translated as “deny himself utterly.” (DBH NT).
Click to expand...
I’m unfamiliar with the abbreviation DBH but I suppose it stands for David Bentley Hart? As I see it, the insertion of an extra word – “inmost” in one case, “utterly” in the other – is a serious flaw. The translator is muscling in, preventing full contact between the author and the reader. He is covertly correcting the author’s mistake for him, or perhaps in this case correcting Jesus’ mistake for Him.

It’s ironic in this case that the publisher’s blurb, which we can read on Amazon. com, misleadingly attributes to Hart’s translation the merit of “Reproducing the texts’ often fragmentary formulations without augmentation or correction, he has produced a pitilessly literal translation …” (emphasis added).

 
Last edited:
BartholomewB said:
David Bentley Hart?
Click to expand...
Correct.
BartholomewB said:
The translator is muscling in, preventing full contact between the author and the reader.
Click to expand...
There is no such thing as full contact in these contexts. I’m not sure there ever could be. Right now, even in this moment, I can’t make “full contact” with your mind or consciousness.

The problem is exacerbated with the biblical writings, not one of which are we in possession of the original autographa for. Translation itself is a further gap between the reader and the original author. (Most of us here read our bibles in English translations, not the original languages.) And then there’s the problem of scriptural interpolations and redactions…on and on it goes.
 
Last edited:
Another author you might like is Fr. Thomas Dubay, S.M. I have two of his books, Prayer Primer, and Deep Conversion, Deep Prayer. Fr. Dubay was critical of the ways of meditation which connected themselves too much with the non-Christian Eastern religions, and he is considered quite orthodox by most.

I admit to a personal shortcoming regarding spiritual giants like St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila. For me, reading them is a chore. Of course there’s great merit in taking on a challenging work, but I just get lost and lose interest when I’ve tried to read them. This says more about me than them. My education and personality prefers contemporary authors, writing in a way to which I can more readily relate. But if you find that they appeal to you, then you should go for it!

There’s another classic, The Practice of the Presence of God, by Brother Lawrence, which I better connected with, perhaps because he was aiming for simplicity. That’s one I recommend.
 
Last edited:
Magnanimity said:
There is no such thing as full contact in these contexts. I’m not sure there ever could be. Right now, even in this moment, I can’t make “full contact” with your mind or consciousness.

The problem is exacerbated with the biblical writings, not one of which are we in possession of the original autographa for. Translation itself is a further gap between the reader and the original author. (Most of us here read our bibles in English translations, not the original languages.) And then there’s the problem of scriptural interpolations and redactions…on and on it goes.
Click to expand...
Yes, everything you say here is true. But it still doesn’t excuse the deliberate tampering with the text of which both Keating and Hart are guilty, in this particular verse in Mark’s Gospel.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top