Thomas Keating has a lot of nerve!

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There doesn’t appear to be any valid explanation for that translation.

As far as the centering prayer, it goes without saying that it’s not completely synonymous bewteen Zen and Catholicism, as Zen is arguably more philosophical/intuitive than it is religious and a person who practices Zen doesn’t necessarily need to believe in God, let alone a personal God. The Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith has addressed the topic of the centering prayer:


Peace.
 
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BartholomewB said:
Yes, everything you say here is true. But it still doesn’t excuse the deliberate tampering with the text of which both Keating and Hart are guilty, in this particular verse in Mark’s Gospel.
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Fair enough. I don’t have a problem with what either of these guys have done in these contexts, but I won’t begrudge anyone who does.

But, Consciousness is an ongoing filter. Even if I had been physically present beside Christ listening to his teachings and seeing his behavior, all of that would still have been filtered through my own experiences, my prior beliefs, my conscience, etc. For me personally, I don’t see that as a problem bc I fully accept the Catholic church’s assimilation of St Newman’s teachings on the primacy of the conscience—“man’s most secret core, and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths.” -Gaudium et Spes, 16.

Given the reality of God and conscience, I think it’ll all be ok.
 
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Magnanimity said:
Fair enough. I don’t have a problem with what either of these guys have done in these contexts, but I won’t begrudge anyone who does.

But, Consciousness is an ongoing filter. Even if I had been physically present beside Christ listening to his teachings and seeing his behavior, all of that would still have been filtered through my own experiences, my prior beliefs, my conscience, etc. For me personally, I don’t see that as a problem bc I fully accept the Catholic church’s assimilation of St Newman’s teachings on the primacy of the conscience—“man’s most secret core, and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths.” -Gaudium et Spes, 16.

Given the reality of God and conscience, I think it’ll all be ok.
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Even if you were beside Christ listening to his teachings, unless you were chosen as his apostle and baptized in fire by his Holy Spirit, and/or chosen as his holy instrument to convey his word in writing, you would not be qualified to add or subtract anything he said, or anything one of his inspired writers had put to parchment. That’s why I think holding to scripture as close as possible what has been translated to us by the Church’s proper authorities calls for a bit of scrupulosity (scrupulousness?). Otherwise anybody can add or subtract or delete any scripture they don’t find useful (Thomas Jefferson anyone?). There’s a reason all of our approved Catholic bibles have Imprimaturs, and none of Thomas Keating’s writings, that I’ve seen anyway, do.
 
kingmeatloaf said:
you would not be qualified to add or subtract anything he said, or anything one of his inspired writers had put to parchment.
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I would say that there is a certain Pharisaical trapping that we can all fall into with regard to the sacred writings. I’ve done so myself—revering the written words as much as the Word. But this is out of bounds. Clearly, the words (the gospels) have a certain functionality. They are designed to point us to and put us into contact with the Living Word. We don’t worship the Bible, as you know. And the sacred writings cannot be elevated to the status of Christ Himself. The Bible is not an end in itself—it’s like a signpost to point us in the direction of the Real, to link us up to the Eternal Word. So, on some important level, the sacred writings are functional and designed for our good and final end (re-union with God). Right?
 
Magnanimity said:
So, on some important level, the sacred writings are functional and designed for our good and final end (re-union with God). Right?
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Sure, you’re right. Although I don’t think trusting biblical quotes from bibles with Imprimaturs and calling unqualified people out on adding words to it when they claim to be making direct quotes is the same as being “pharisaical”. As someone who reads the NAB and frequently refers to the much-hated Good News bible when things are too complex for me, I’d hardly consider myself a Pharisee when it comes to scripture. I just don’t see how Fr. Keating’s poor handling of scripture is even worth trying to defend, but I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut. I think broadly you’re right, I just can’t get behind this specific instance.
 
Can I just say a few things here. First, Prayer and Spirituality are about intention and interpretation no matter what we do.

But these days we are even seeing forms of meditation in secular settings. We are seeing the benefits in research studies more and more. And really, it is our own intentions and interpretations that determine for us what is spiritual, religious or just good mental hygiene. Anyone can reduce stress simply by paying attention to breath, repeating a word or whatever.

So my interest lately has been in objective meditation brain research.
It is cross cultural, interreligious and universal.
The brain and the mind are tools we can use however we wish, in whatever belief system we have.
And we can sharpen our focus, develop our span of attention.

What science is telling us is that the brain has two basic ways of processing.
One is Egocentric the other is Allocentric or Other centric.
We shift back and forth with our energy to each of these continually.

Egocentric is all that we normally think of as our thoughts, our narrative, our ruminations. It is also referred to as our Default Mode Network. It is our monkey brain. Our rational active processes.

Allocentric is more getting in touch with what we experience, what we feel, what we perceive. And it is more objective, matter of fact, passive.

We sort of teeter totter our mental energy between these two networks of processing all day long. We live in cycles.

When we practice meditation, especially Open Awareness, mindfulness type of meditation we consciously practice Allocentric Processing. We work those neural pathways and reinforce them.

Nothing mystical, diabolical or dangerous. This is the way God created our brains. In the West we are heavily egocentric and out there doing things. In the East they are more Allocentric and passive. What we need is a better balance. If anyone is really interested there are several youtube presentations on the brain and mediation.

It might sound strange, how does focusing within become “Other centered”? Well, we become objective observers of our interior. We no longer identify with what we observe. We let it all come and go. We are present to it but not enmeshed in it. We do not identify with all the thoughts and emotions. We let them go. is that “emptying” ourselves? No, because we are still there keeping vigil. What we are surrendering is activity of the Default Mode Network. But “we” are still there, still alert.
 
That lowers our stress, lowers our anxiety. It takes us out of our ego dramas and relieves depression.
It relaxes our limbic system, our reptile brain. We become less reactive and we recover more quickly from emotional disturbance.

It is training the brain, training the mind. Is it dangerous? Is learning to play piano dangerous? Is training any skill dangerous?

Is it spiritual? Is it prayer? Well, it depends. Are you seeking God or are you just doing a mental exercise? How do you interpret the results? Did you feel closer to God? Or just closer to your own self? More relaxed and refreshed as a result of your own efforts?

Suppose it helps one uses a name for God like Adonai for example. is that blasphemy? Is it using God? or is it prayer?

And, by the way, St John of the Cross, a doctor of the Church says, “the Center of the soul is God.” Somewhere in Living Flame of Love.
 
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kingmeatloaf said:
The rosary preceded by silence and stillness sounds like a winning combination, but in silence and stillness I start thinking like a Buddhist again, and can’t be trusted.
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Why don’t you try that silence and stillness while contemplating something like a beautiful flower, or an interesting insect, or something else from God’s bounty of beautiful creation? Correct me if I’m wrong, but Zen technique usually focuses on the inward, far as I know. You can be quiet and contemplative and focus on the outward, too.
 
kingmeatloaf said:
but I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut. I think broadly you’re right, I just can’t get behind this specific instance.
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Well, I think you and I are doing great, then! We managed to have a good back and forth, even disagreeing on some particular points, all the while respecting each other’s POV’s. I won’t say that I’m right in not having a problem with what Fr Keating did there with that translation. At most, I’ll say that I don’t see the problem with it. But I respect your reasoning here, as well. 🙂
 
I share a meditation group with a Buddhist. I don’t know how he likes that. To me the Zen Buddhist intention and interpretation are cold and impersonal. My soul needs a relationship with the one whom I believe is the greatest power and love in the universe. We may sit in the same session and even follow the same method but we are doing very different things.
 
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Shakuhachi said:
It is training the brain, training the mind. Is it dangerous? Is learning to play piano dangerous? Is training any skill dangerous?
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All that’s great stuff, and I appreciate you sharing. I’ve unfortunately heard buddhists repeat this same information over and over again, I guess attempting to have a monopoly on mindfulness, and saying “see? Buddhism has been right all along, and science is finally catching up”.

I don’t think training the brain is dangerous anymore than playing piano is dangerous for your fingers. But for me a problem is presented in training the brain absent of God. As someone with multiple mental health issues, I can say from experience that the amount of mindful meditation I need to keep my brain at a functional level requires me to practice it religiously, constantly. Hence my attaching great importance to applying Christian method to my meditation. I never want to practice a “scientific” method of bringing my mind to sanity more than I spend time in prayer. This is a road to self-reliance. That could almost literally be some modern buddhist’s description of zen practice. Does that make any sense?
 
kingmeatloaf said:
That could almost literally be some modern buddhist’s description of zen practice. Does that make any sense?
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Yes, and as I said, intention and interpretation make all the difference. I don’t even think Buddhism is a religion. There is no God. It is an atheistic philosophy and a discipline. The only reason they seem to have a monopoly on mindfulness is because from the get go they have been more introverted while the rest of the world has been extroverted, even Judeo-Christian religion. We do have our contemplatives but they always seem to be suspect only because they are out of the norm.
 
Shakuhachi said:
Yes, and as I said, intention and interpretation make all the difference. I don’t even think Buddhism is a religion. There is no God. It is an atheistic philosophy and a discipline. The only reason they seem to have a monopoly on mindfulness is because from the get go they have been more introverted while the rest of the world has been extroverted, even Judeo-Christian religion. We do have our contemplatives but they always seem to be suspect only because they are out of the norm.
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Many of them are suspect, not just because they’re out of the norm, but because many of them talk more about another religion than they do Christianity. Merton certainly did it, “roshi” Robert Kennedy has done it, Keating seems to have had it as a priority. Many others. The saints put these seemingly odd practices AFTER baptism, mass, confession, the sacraments. The virues and works of mercy. Those are our ground zero. Anything outside of that must compliment the sacraments, commandments and works of mercy, otherwise they’re a distraction, and distraction from the sacraments is nothing more than diabolical. I’m seeking a way to be more present with the sacraments. Anything resembling zen draws us further into ourselves, in my experience anyway.
 
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kingmeatloaf said:
Many of them are suspect, not just because they’re out of the norm, but because many of them talk more about another religion than they do Christianity. Merton certainly did it, “roshi” Robert Kennedy has done it, Keating seems to have had it as a priority.
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It doesn’t matter. They are talking about the practices rather than the intentions and theological interpretations. “Christianity” is all about intentions and theological interpretations. It is the context for everything else we do.
 
That’s because centering prayer IS pseudo new age. God gave you an imagination so you can use it to draw closer to Him. Meditate on the mysteries. The Annunciation, Visitation, etc. Imagine yourself there. Let God draw you into the mysteries. It’s more “enlightening” than anything a new age thing could ever offer. Talk about “transcending” …try it.
 
kingmeatloaf said:
And why do centering prayer groups seem to have a monopoly on “Cloud”? Anyone know of an organization that studies “Cloud”, and actually practices it’s teachings?
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It seems to me that Centering Prayer is pretty much the method of the Cloud. Also John Cassian in Conference 10:10 on Prayer: And so for keeping up continual recollection of God this pious formula is to be ever set before you. O God, make speed to save me: O Lord, make haste to help me, for this verse has not unreasonably been picked out from the whole of Scripture for this purpose.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/350810.htm
 
Shakuhachi said:
And, by the way, St John of the Cross, a doctor of the Church says, “the Center of the soul is God.” Somewhere in Living Flame of Love .
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I agree with you in some points you made here but we must not forget that even though the center of soul is God it is because He lives here and not because we are part of God/we are God. He created us and we are subordinate to him. We will never be equal to Him or be part of Him. And that is what Centering prayer promotes - being equal to non - personal being who is everything (West translates it as “God”).
Problem in Centering prayer isn’t just because it is connected to Buddhism but how it perceives God, creations, suffering etc.
Centering prayer isn’t problem to secular man but to Christians…
If we would change parts of it into truly Christian version then it wouldn’t be Centering prayer anymore.
Shakuhachi said:
Attention, vigilance and presence are universal human faculties.
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I agree with this but there are different versions of vigilance or what it means… Instead of mindfulness we have this: - soberness of spirit, because sin is only thing that can separate us from God.

Eternal separation from God is something that Buddhism or Centering prayer doesn’t recognise.

We have Christian “version” of mindfulness:
Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
1Peter5:8
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Can you point me example?
Because that is only what I could read from Keating on theme of CP. What is purpose of CP?
 
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