Thomas Keating has a lot of nerve!

[Magnanimity]

This is where I see someone Like Bonaventure on the right track. Tracking the vestiges of God in nature, in ourselves, and above us and finally letting go of it all.

Me too, well said! Would you put St Francis in the the same vein too? I recently read a wonderful quote about St Francis from GK Chesterton.

Now for St. Francis nothing was ever in the background. We might say that his mind had no background, except perhaps that divine darkness out of which the divine love had called up every colored creature one by one. He saw everything as dramatic, distinct from its setting, not all of a piece like a picture but in action like a play. A bird went by him like an arrow; something with a story and a purpose, though it was a purpose of life and not a purpose of death. A bush could stop him like a brigand; and indeed he was as ready to welcome the brigand as the bush.

Nothing was ever in the background. His mind had no background… Wow. Oh to be like Sts Bonaventure and Francis!

I also have no problem admitting he is God purely because he made the claim to be.

This epistemic attitude reminds me of a camp within Protestantism called “presuppositionalism.” But, it seems you’ve thrown in a little “evidentialism” alongside it. All well and good. Any of these -ism’s is problematic on its own, but maybe when all of a piece, it’s satisfying.

In a way, that’s what Frs Keating and Merton always advocated—contemplative prayer as an additional layer to an already robust prayerful/meditative life full of lectio divina, the rosary, etc. All of a piece (or “in action, like a play”) to form the tapestry.

 

[Inbonum]

Okay.
Can I ask you 3 questions to explain me (or anyone else who supports Centering prayer)?

1.Why is it called Centering prayer and why is fr.Thomas Keating so emphasized if it’s prayer that is used almost from beggining of Christianity?

2.How st. Theresa of Avila, st. John of the Cross and other saints called it (referring to claims that they also used it)? Could you point me to source which shows that saints used CP?

3.Why Centering prayer method presumes that anyone who practice it will receive gift of contemplation if it is God’s will if someone will get it or not? Promoters of it say it is preparation for entering contemplation.

 

[Shakuhachi]

Me too, well said! Would you put St Francis in the the same vein too? I recently read a wonderful quote about St Francis from GK Chesterton.

Nothing was ever in the background. His mind had no background… Wow. Oh to be like Sts Bonaventure and Francis!

St Francis was sure incarnational. I do wonder what his interior prayer was like. There is plenty written of him and by him.

 

[Magnanimity]

1.Why is it called Centering prayer

See the wiki article on the topic, name was assumed from a passage from Merton. Meditative and contemplative prayer practices most certainly go back “to the beginning.” CP centers around a rediscovery of the Cloud that goes back to the 1970’s—largely by accident. In the 60’s during America’s spiritual reawakening, folks would accidentally stop by Fr Keating’s abbey looking for a near by Buddhist abbey. Folks just wanted “a path, man.” A spiritual path. So Fr Keating challenged his fellow Trappists to find something in the tradition around which to lay ground for a path for the masses. They found the Cloud of Unknowing, which forms the basis for CP.

Promoters of it say it is preparation for entering contemplation.

Promoters of it claim that CP is contemplative by its very nature.

 

[Shakuhachi]

1.Why is it called Centering prayer and why is fr.Thomas Keating so emphasized if it’s prayer that is used almost from beggining of Christianity?

2.How st. Theresa of Avila, st. John of the Cross and other saints called it (referring to claims that they also used it)? Could you point me to source which shows that saints used CP?

3.Why Centering prayer method presumes that anyone who practice it will receive gift of contemplation if it is God’s will if someone will get it or not? Promoters of it say it is preparation for entering contemplation.

“Centering” I think because it cuts through all the peripheral stuff we usually get enmeshed in. From the Beginning of Christianity? That would go back to Jesus at prayer. A prayer of profoundest intimacy with the Father.

I have looked for a method with them both over the years and have not really found one. I am more familiar with St John and I do know that he speaks of going beyond thought. I recall especially how it is then that we are beyond the reach of the devil.

For example Inner Flame of love (which is the only book I have handy) Stanza 1 #9
9. This feast takes place in the substance of the soul where neither the center of the senses nor the devil can reach. Therefore, the more interior it is, the more secure, substantial, and delightful, because the more interior it is, the purer it is. And the greater the purity, the more abundantly, frequently, and generously God communicates himself. Thus the delight and joy of the soul is so much more intense because God is the doer of all without the soul’s doing anything. Since the soul cannot do any work of its own save through the means and aid of the corporeal senses, from which in this event it is very free and far removed, its sole occupation now is to receive from God, who alone can move the soul and do his work in its depths.

see also most of

Stanza 3 32-36
36. Once individuals have begun to enter this simple and idle state of contemplation that comes about
when they can no longer meditate, they should not at any time or season engage in meditations or look for support in spiritual savor or satisfaction, but stand upright on their own feet with their spirit completely detached from everything, as Habakkuk declared he was obliged to do in order to hear what God spoke to him: I will stand on my watch and fix my foot upon my fortress, and I will contemplate what is said to me [Hb. 2:1]. This is like saying: I will raise my mind above all activity and knowledge belonging to my senses and what they can retain, leaving all below, and will fix the foot of the fortress (my faculties), not allowing these faculties to advance a step as regards their own operation that they may receive through contemplation what God
communicates to me; for we have already asserted that pure contemplation lies in receiving.

https://d2y1pz2y630308.cloudfront.net/15471/documents/2016/10/St.%20John%20of%20the%20Cross-The%20Living%20Flame%20of%20Love.pdf

 

[Inbonum]

Well I know history of CP but I didn’t find any sources which clearly show that those saints used it or that method developed from them. It is more about giving a certain name to a concept that is just similar. I didn’t find source for those claims on Wikipedia.

Inbonum:

Promoters of it say it is preparation for entering contemplation.

Promoters of it claim that CP is contemplative by its very nature.

I am asking this because someone mentioned CP as way of preparation for contemplation

Centering Prayer is a receptive method of Christian silent prayer that prepares us to receive the gift of contemplative prayer

From Centering Prayer - Contemplative Outreach, Ltd.

 

[Shakuhachi]

3.Why Centering prayer method presumes that anyone who practice it will receive gift of contemplation if it is God’s will if someone will get it or not? Promoters of it say it is preparation for entering contemplation.

We cant presume anything.
Even someone like a Zen master or whatever who has spend thousands of hours in meditation and maybe has some deep insights and great mental clarity and all the benefits one can possibly get from meditation… it is not the gift of contemplation.

We can only be available, attentive and welcoming.

 

[Inbonum]

1. This feast takes place in the substance of the soul where neither the center of the senses nor the devil can reach. Therefore, the more interior it is, the more secure, substantial, and delightful, because the more interior it is, the purer it is. And the greater the purity, the more abundantly, frequently, and generously God communicates himself. Thus the delight and joy of the soul is so much more intense because God is the doer of all without the soul’s doing anything. Since the soul cannot do any work of its own save through the means and aid of the corporeal senses, from which in this event it is very free and far removed, its sole occupation now is to receive from God, who alone can move the soul and do his work in its depths.

see also most of

Stanza 3 32-36
36. Once individuals have begun to enter this simple and idle state of contemplation that comes about
when they can no longer meditate, they should not at any time or season engage in meditations or look for support in spiritual savor or satisfaction, but stand upright on their own feet with their spirit completely detached from everything, as Habakkuk declared he was obliged to do in order to hear what God spoke to him: I will stand on my watch and fix my foot upon my fortress, and I will contemplate what is said to me [Hb. 2:1]. This is like saying: I will raise my mind above all activity and knowledge belonging to my senses and what they can retain, leaving all below, and will fix the foot of the fortress (my faculties), not allowing these faculties to advance a step as regards their own operation that they may receive through contemplation what God
communicates to me; for we have already asserted that pure contemplation lies in receiving

Well this is something completely normal and I have to admit that I am pretty confused when someone says that this is CP.
It is same as some stages of prayer described in Dark Night and Ascent of Mont Carmel.

I am trying understand why CP and contemplation are sometimes described as one thing (I don’t think they are the same). And why other time someone says that CP precedes contemplation.

What I mostly want understand now is view of someone who claims that CP and contemplation which John of Cross describes are the same when they are not (from opponents stand point)

 

[Magnanimity]

Well I know history of CP but I didn’t find any sources which clearly show that those saints used it or that method developed from them. It is more about giving a certain name to a concept that is just similar.

Ok, I don’t know what Modern Era saints you’re talking about or the claims that they used CP. It was developed in the 1970’s… And the Cloud of Unknowing is late Middle Ages (prior to Sts John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila). I find it frankly bizarre that any Catholics would be opposed to CP, once they find out what it is (and isn’t). It’s a tool to possibly put in one’s spiritual tool box. Don’t like it, no need to try to destroy the tool. Just keep shopping for the “right” one for you…

 

[Shakuhachi]

What I mostly want understand now is view of someone who claims that CP and contemplation which John of Cross describes are the same when they are not (from opponents stand point)

They are not. CP is a method of pray that can help make on available for contemplation.

 

[Inbonum]

Ok, I don’t know what Modern Era saints you’re talking about or the claims that they used CP.

I am just asking about those mentioned by promoters of CP. Theresa of Avila? John of Cross? And other…

I find it frankly bizarre that any Catholics would be opposed to CP, once they find out what it is (and isn’t).

Well first I learned about it from people who did it in past and gave up. Later I read analyzes of the method itself and history. I also have my experience with Eastern techniques of meditation/ prayer (11years). I thought that it doesn’t matter which technique is used but I noticed differences after I returned to Catholicism and stopped using all of them.
That is my experience on which I formed my opinion on Centering prayer and other methods of prayer.

I just find some things here interesting (and confusing) for discussion.

It’s a tool to possibly put in one’s spiritual tool box. Don’t like it, no need to try to destroy the tool.

I do not see how it would be possible to destroy that tool… Except if you are referring on quoting things found contrary to some beliefs. Which is normal thing on CAF.

 

[HarryStotle]

This epistemic attitude reminds me of a camp within Protestantism called “presuppositionalism.” But, it seems you’ve thrown in a little “evidentialism” alongside it. All well and good. Any of these -ism’s is problematic on its own, but maybe when all of a piece, it’s satisfying.

Not exactly. There are strong arguments from metaphysics to arrive at a warranted belief in the existence of God.

That said, I suppose there are “presuppositions” found in all reasoning - axioms of logic, for example - no one is exempt.

Once reason gets you to the reasonable probability that God exists then it is also reasonable to look around at the evidence for where God has revealed himself in creation and in history. The history of Israel, life of Christ, and the history of the Church taken together are strong evidence for God revealing himself in the historical narrative.

The nature of God, if it is available to us to any degree whatsoever, is most certainly revealed in the words and actions of Christ.

Ergo, I don’t presume the existence of God from the life of Christ. The arguments from classical theism go a long way to establish the existence of God, but the words and actions of Christ reveal the nature of God in a very unique way - one that human beings on our own would likely never get to.

 

[teamjesusnumber31]

I believe Father Chad Ripperger, exorcist, lists Centering Prayer as a certain demon but I cannot prove this at the moment. If anyone has a copy of Deliverance Prayers with them they could look it up.

 

[Anesti33]

I believe Father Chad Ripperger, exorcist, lists Centering Prayer as a certain demon but I cannot prove this at the moment. If anyone has a copy of Deliverance Prayers with them they could look it up.

That’s a bit, ah, zealous.
My pastor is well-acquainted with the Enemy and all his empty promises, and he gave me an A-OK to practice Centering Prayer, because he knows I know how to avoid the fruity stuff. (He green-lit my practice of Yoga, too!)

 

[JimR-OCDS]

If this were true, Trappists monks and Benedictine Monks would be possessed ?

They practice and teach about Centering Prayer.

 

[christofirst]

Here is something to read from the Benedictine Laurence Freeman, who took up the work started by his mentor John Main. In John Main’s way of Christian Meditation, we focus interiorly on the prayer word or mantra throughout the time of prayer, following the recommendation of Cassian and The Cloud. This is likely why this way of prayer has appealed to me more than Centering Prayer, because I have never reached that place of pure prayer where I can let go of the mantra without falling immediately back into countless daydreams, thoughts and future plans.

2005D Talks to the monks of GETHSEMANI ABBEY by Laurence Freeman OSB by WCCM - Issuu

 

[Shakuhachi]

Here is something to read from the Benedictine Laurence Freeman, who took up the work started by his mentor John Main. In John Main’s way of Christian Meditation, we focus interiorly on the prayer word or mantra throughout the time of prayer, following the recommendation of Cassian and The Cloud. This is likely why this way of prayer has appealed to me more than Centering Prayer, because I have never reached that place of pure prayer where I can let go of the mantra without falling immediately back into countless daydreams, thoughts and future plans.

How about cycling back and forth between letting go of everything and retaining a deep longing for the beloved? That seems to be my mode. In the letting go here is surrender.

 

[christofirst]

Some day I might reach that stage. The time may come when I no longer feel the need to stay so busy, even while praying, and then perhaps I’ll be able to more completely let go. But then I’m encouraged by that image from the Desert Fathers of the monk who prays silently while plaiting palm leaves into something useful. His hands and part of his mind have something simple to do, allowing him to pray without getting restless and feeling like he should be doing something else, something more productive. That’s more like where I am now, still conditioned toward activity. So the prayer word serves a purpose, to keep all the other thoughts at bay for a while.

 

[HarryStotle]

Sort of. As Aquinas knew well, knowing that something exists does not entail that you know its nature with much precision at all. So knowing-that would not be the same as knowing-what. To say that something exists is to make a judgment.

Except that for Aquinas God’s essence is existence. God is the Pure Act of Being Itself or Actus Purus, Ipsum Esse Existens.

Ergo, your point that “knowing that something exists does not entail that you know its nature” does not apply to God at all. The more that you understand God’s nature the more you understand that he exists and the more that you truly understand that he exists qua God the more you understand something of his nature.

That is why the ontological argument has traction when speaking of God but not with islands and such.

 

[Magnanimity]

Except that for Aquinas God’s essence is existence. God is the Pure Act of Being Itself or Actus Purus, Ipsum Esse Existens.

That’s the Thomistic reasoning…I happen to think it’s spot-on.

Ergo, your point that “ knowing that something exists does not entail that you know its nature” does not apply to God at all. The more that you understand God’s nature the more you understand that he exists

I’m not sure what you’re trying to argue here. My claim was that a judgment that something exists doesn’t entail that you know its nature with precision. That’s not a bold claim. This is true for every being that we ever come to know about, including God (though He’s not a “thing,” not another being among many in the universe).

Moreover, although St Thomas affirms that there are many truths we can know about God, he’s also cautious. See his entire Q.12 of Part 1 of the ST. Within the articles of that section, Aquinas says things like, “it is impossible for any created intellect to see the essence of God by its own natural power.” (Art 4) And, “it is impossible for any created intellect to comprehend God.” (Art 7) And, “God cannot be seen in his essence by a mere human being, unless he be separated from this mortal life.” (Art 11). He’s optimistic about knowledge of God but simultaneously very cautious.

That is why the ontological argument has traction when speaking of God but not with islands and such.

Eh, maybe. Some thomists are impressed with the ontological argument (eg, Bishop Barron). Thomas himself wasn’t impressed by it…