Thomistic Predestination

[rinnie]

From an earlier post:

newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

As I have stated many times…their only answer to how this comports with free will is that it is a mystery.

To add…if I believed that God truly preordained events (which in itself denies free will) I would not be giving glory to that god, nor would many others. Obstinate hatred might be more like it.

No it just shows the consequences of free will. But it in no way changes the will of God. The will of God is and always will be that all men will go to heaven.

But the word of God also states not all men will go to heaven.

You seem to be saying that just because God wants everyone to go to heaven, if they do not, then it was not the will of God.

And preordained events do not deny free will. If God put someone in the position to take a diamond ring off of a counter with no one looking, or to not take it, the position God put them in, no way takes away the free will to steal or to not steal.

Preordained events in no way takes away free will. You again have failed to prove your point.

 

[rinnie]

From an earlier post:

newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

As I have stated many times…their only answer to how this comports with free will is that it is a mystery.

To add…if I believed that God truly preordained events (which in itself denies free will) I would not be giving glory to that god, nor would many others. Obstinate hatred might be more like it.

And because God wants us all to go to heaven, but gives us the right to reject him or accept him is a mystery, has nothing to do with what God wants.

And as I stated you have not given any preordained events that denied free will.

 

[oldcelt]

And because God wants us all to go to heaven, but gives us the right to reject him or accept him is a mystery, has nothing to do with what God wants.

And as I stated you have not given any preordained events that denied free will.

By preordaining ALL future events, as stated in the passage I quoted, a deity would be setting the conditions and behaviors of his creation. Free will can not possibly exist in such a world. It is foreseen, preordained…it is set. That is what the teaching says.
They then try to add free will into this mix and only call it a mystery as to how this can work. A mystery is no answer, and is really an admission to me that they know that the conditions cannot mesh.
Repeating an illogical premise over and over does not make it any more logical.

 

[thinkandmull]

I gave you a perfectly rational explanation oldcelt but you are staying angry at some stupid encyclopedia written by private scholars, and probably misinterpreting it anyway!

He ordains things, that is, blesses them, after they happen, the good deeds, and the punishments for sin. That doesn’t mean He doesn’t do all He can to save all and if the Old CE disagrees, than they are cruelly wrong.

again

1. He chooses to create
2. The choses that are made in time are written into reality so to speak
3. As time unfolds, reality unfolds
4. Eternity is not a part of time behind time, so God knows what will happen from the happening He always saw
5. The will to create came before the sin
   6 God cannot undo what is done

 

[oldcelt]

I gave you a perfectly rational explanation oldcelt but you are staying angry at some stupid encyclopedia written by private scholars, and probably misinterpreting it anyway!

He ordains things, that is, blesses them, after they happen, the good deeds, and the punishments for sin. That doesn’t mean He doesn’t do all He can to save all and if the Old CE disagrees, than they are cruelly wrong.

again

1. He chooses to create
2. The choses that are made in time are written into reality so to speak
3. As time unfolds, reality unfolds
4. Eternity is not a part of time behind time, so God knows what will happen from the happening He always saw
5. The will to create came before the sin
   6 God cannot undo what is done

y

The encyclopedia is a much more in-depth examination of the Church’s many teaching and has the Imprimatur and Nil Obtsat after each chapter. It should be mandatory reading for all Catholics. The Catechism is like the Cliff Notes version by comparison.

 

[rinnie]

By preordaining ALL future events, as stated in the passage I quoted, a deity would be setting the conditions and behaviors of his creation. Free will can not possibly exist in such a world. It is foreseen, preordained…it is set. That is what the teaching says.
They then try to add free will into this mix and only call it a mystery as to how this can work. A mystery is no answer, and is really an admission to me that they know that the conditions cannot mesh.
Repeating an illogical premise over and over does not make it any more logical.

How could God knowing everything that will happen before it happens take away our free will?

I still cannot see what you are saying. Help me to see from your eyes what I am missing.

From what I am seeing you continue to say because God knows the choice we will make, he took away our own free will to make it, and I cannot comprehend this thinking.

Trust me I am truly trying to understand what you are saying, I truly am.

 

[rinnie]

By preordaining ALL future events, as stated in the passage I quoted, a deity would be setting the conditions and behaviors of his creation. Free will can not possibly exist in such a world. It is foreseen, preordained…it is set. That is what the teaching says.
They then try to add free will into this mix and only call it a mystery as to how this can work. A mystery is no answer, and is really an admission to me that they know that the conditions cannot mesh.
Repeating an illogical premise over and over does not make it any more logical.

You said that by God knowing all future events, he sets the conditions and behaviors of his creation.

I am saying this is not true. While I agree he indeed can set the conditions, I do not disagree with that, he never sets the behavior. If he set the behavior of his creation there would be no sin, no free will to sin, no unbelievers etc.

If you are saying God tests some people and gives some people larger crosses to carry then others, and you cannot understand why, I totally agree with that. But while I agree God gives us crosses to carry, we choose how and if we will carry them.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Well this isn’t Aquinas but its gives the idea from the early church.

“When God undertook in the beginning to create the world, for nothing comes to mind without cause, each that would ever exist was presented to His mind. He saw what else would result when such a thing were produced; and if such a result were accomplished, what else would accompany: and what else would be the result even of this when it would come about. And so on to the conclusion of the sequence of events…He knew what would be, without being altogether of the cause of the coming to be of each of the things which He knew would happen.” Origen on Genesis

Aquinas is here.

newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm#article2

 

[thinkandmull]

What Aquinas wrote on predestination was an abomination. Even if an Encyclopedia repeated his view, so what!? I think oldcelt left the Church because he thought Catholics had to believe that nonsense. I’ve offered philosophical prove that they **don’t in any way whatsoever **

Again, the Encyclopedia could of meant by “ordain” that God set things in motion and knew that things could go wrong, but that it was worth the good, and thus it was, by His creation, ordained, sealed, approved it. The loss of souls is evil, but their punishment is not, although contrary to Aquinas it is not as good as their salvation

 

[Tom_Baum]

By preordaining ALL future events, as stated in the passage I quoted, a deity would be setting the conditions and behaviors of his creation. Free will can not possibly exist in such a world. It is foreseen, preordained…it is set. That is what the teaching says.
They then try to add free will into this mix and only call it a mystery as to how this can work. A mystery is no answer, and is really an admission to me that they know that the conditions cannot mesh.
Repeating an illogical premise over and over does not make it any more logical.

You say that “A mystery is no answer”.

You can say that but it is wrong for the simple reason that it is some people’s answer, including mine, and you can disagree with their answer but you can not tell others that they have to answer something to your satisfaction, however, you can consider it a wrong answer.

It may be a “no answer” to you, it seems for the simple reason that you do not think that there can be a Being that can do something that is beyond your ability to conceive of but for others, it is very much an answer and not only an answer but an admission that they believe that there are things beyond their human abilities.

Some people believe that God made absolutely everything out of nothing, a nothing that I believe is beyond our ability to conceive of and I, most definitely, believe that making everything out of absolutely nothing is a “mystery”.

By “mystery” and I am speaking of something being a mystery to me, I mean something that is beyond my ability to explain, even to myself.

You may or may not believe God made everything out of nothing but can you explain it whether or not you believe it to be?

I would like to ask you a question if you don’t mind, do you believe that there always was something besides God and if not, do you believe that God made everything out of nothing?

This may be very simplistic but sometimes it seems to me that some seem to think that God blew Himself up, I am referring to those that believe everything is God, I do not necessarily mean God blew Himself up in an explosion but that somehow ripped Himself apart, do you see what I am getting at?

By the way, here and elsewhere, where I use the masculine pronoun, I only use it because pronouns come in handy because I do NOT believe that God is a Male, a Female or an IT but as I have said elsewhere, a Being of Love.

 

[oldcelt]

How could God knowing everything that will happen before it happens take away our free will?

I still cannot see what you are saying. Help me to see from your eyes what I am missing.

From what I am seeing you continue to say because God knows the choice we will make, he took away our own free will to make it, and I cannot comprehend this thinking.

Trust me I am truly trying to understand what you are saying, I truly am.

I’ll sum it up quickly. Immutable preordination goes far beyond foreknowledge. To ordain means to declare, order, demand. Immutable means unchanging. If this is true, and it is what is in the Encyclopedia, with all approbations, then we are puppets.
I reject this in its entirety, because it makes the creator a monster who kills children, etc. by an act of his will.

 

[thinkandmull]

oldcelt, the encyclopedia was just approved by one bishop. That’s not binding on Catholics. And ordain could of meant merely the approval of the enfolding of the world. I think you are upset because this is why you left the Church?

 

[oldcelt]

oldcelt, the encyclopedia was just approved by one bishop. That’s not binding on Catholics. And ordain could of meant merely the approval of the enfolding of the world. I think you are upset because this is why you left the Church?

I am truly not upset. BTW:

In accomplishing their preliminary task and in dealing with problems that presented no slight difficulty, the editors were encouraged by the widespread interest which the first announcement of the Encyclopedia aroused. Cordial approval and assistance was given by the Apostolic Delegate and by the members of the Hierarchy, particularly by his Eminence Cardinal Farley, to whom the project was formally submitted on January 27, 1905. Many useful suggestions were received from clergymen, teachers, authors, and publishers in the United States and in other countries. The project was welcomed with enthusiasm by the laity, and a large number of subscriptions were taken before the first volume appeared in March, 1907. As other volumes followed with promptness and regularity, the public soon became aware that the Encyclopedia was rapidly passing from the region of things possible and desirable to that of accomplished facts, and moreover that it was taking a unique position among the important publications of modern times.

The Encyclopedia bears the imprimatur of the Most Reverend Archbishop under whose jurisdiction it is published. In constituting the editors the ecclesiastical censors, he has given them a singular proof of his confidence and of his desire to facilitate the publication of the work which he has promoted most effectively by his influence and kindly cooperation."

 

[oldcelt]

Ordain: order or decree (something) officially.
“equal punishment was ordained for the two crimes”
synonyms: decree, rule, order, command, enjoin, lay/set down, establish, dictate, legislate, prescribe, pronounce
“she ordained that anyone found hunting in the forest must pay a fine”

John

 

[oldcelt]

I truly want to thank all of you who engaged in this fascinating discourse. Though I think we have exhausted the subject for now, you have given me much to ponder. Thanks again.

John

 

[thinkandmull]

It was ordained in the sense that God blessed the unfolding of time and free will decisions