Thomistic Predestination

[Tom_Baum]

The very fact that God sees your future means that you have a fate. The fact that you can act free doesn’t change thing unfortunately.

Ever given any thought that if God is Omniscient than God took everything into consideration when God came up with God’s Plan which God has had since before creation?

Besides what will be being a surprise, it just might be a surprise that is beyond the bestest expectations of those that happen to have any expectations.

Why not? I know, we human like mystery which we cannot resolve.

You are not the only one who has a very “small” conception of God.

It means that the act creation should be just.

Thanks for the answer but I do NOT have a clue what you mean by it.

 

[fred_conty]

Originally Posted by oldcelt
My reasoning is quite simple: When a being that is all-knowing regarding future events creates someone, that creator does so with perfect knowledge of their ultimate fate. He has predestined them by the mere creative act. If you then add the power to preordain future events, and the fix is in.

"We answer, with St. John of Damascus, St. Thomas of Aquin, and the great body of Catholic Doctors, that with regard to the reprobation of sinners, it is necessary to distinguish between the priority of time and the priority of order, or, if we may say, of reason.

In priority of time, the Divine Decree is anterior to man’s sin; but in priority of order, sin is anterior to the Divine Decree; for God has decreed many sinners to hell, inasmuch as he has foreseen their sins. Hence we may see that God, with that antecedent will which regards his goodness, truly wills that all should be saved, but by that consequent will which regards the sins of the reprobate, he wishes their damnation." …St. Alphonsus

“I know the sun is shinning even when it isn’t shinning.” Christian hymn

May God’s face shine on you.

 

[oldcelt]

"We answer, with St. John of Damascus, St. Thomas of Aquin, and the great body of Catholic Doctors, that with regard to the reprobation of sinners, it is necessary to distinguish between the priority of time and the priority of order, or, if we may say, of reason.

In priority of time, the Divine Decree is anterior to man’s sin; but in priority of order, sin is anterior to the Divine Decree; for God has decreed many sinners to hell, inasmuch as he has foreseen their sins. Hence we may see that God, with that antecedent will which regards his goodness, truly wills that all should be saved, but by that consequent will which regards the sins of the reprobate, he wishes their damnation." …St. Alphonsus

“I know the sun is shinning even when it isn’t shinning.” Christian hymn

May God’s face shine on you.

All attempts to reconcile predestination with free will. It is a control element, By maintaining fear in people you hope to ensure full pews. Since the enlightenment, people have been more analytical and many have come to the realization that the things they were force-fed in their youth do not add up.

John

 

[Bahman]

Ever given any thought that if God is Omniscient than God took everything into consideration when God came up with God’s Plan which God has had since before creation?

Besides what will be being a surprise, it just might be a surprise that is beyond the bestest expectations of those that happen to have any expectations.

What is the meaning of plan when God sees everything? It means that everything is fixed.

You are not the only one who has a very “small” conception of God.

God has to be simple.

Thanks for the answer but I do NOT have a clue what you mean by it.

God has to be simple so all conscious being have a clear understanding of it.

 

[fred_conty]

All attempts to reconcile predestination with free will. It is a control element, By maintaining fear in people you hope to ensure full pews. Since the enlightenment, people have been more analytical and many have come to the realization that the things they were force-fed in their youth do not add up.

John

Or paraphrasing, if I disagree with it or dislike it, then it must be wrong.

Is there some sort of info to verify your last sentence? Not that it makes any difference because truth is truth irregardless of the number for or against.

As a deist, you do not subscribe to a belief in heaven or hell since your deity doesn’t know anything and cares even less. So to you it doesn’t add up…yet.

But supposing he supposes that you do know this already in your heart and that is the reason you think he hasn’t informed you. Isn’t that possible? Have you even had thoughts that say “I know better than to do this”? If you have, than inside you is what every man has…a conscience which informs one of right or wrong. So maybe he expects you also to know that there is a consequence to you actions just as he expects you to know right from wrong. He doesn’t have to spell it out loud…there maybe further results from this.

So even a deist cannot outlaw heaven or hell…which might just be.
May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[oldcelt]

Or paraphrasing, if I disagree with it or dislike it, then it must be wrong.

Is there some sort of info to verify your last sentence? Not that it makes any difference because truth is truth irregardless of the number for or against.

As a deist, you do not subscribe to a belief in heaven or hell since your deity doesn’t know anything and cares even less. So to you it doesn’t add up…yet.

But supposing he supposes that you do know this already in your heart and that is the reason you think he hasn’t informed you. Isn’t that possible? Have you even had thoughts that say “I know better than to do this”? If you have, than inside you is what every man has…a conscience which informs one of right or wrong. So maybe he expects you also to know that there is a consequence to you actions just as he expects you to know right from wrong. He doesn’t have to spell it out loud…there maybe further results from this.

**So even a deist cannot outlaw heaven or hell…which might just be. **
May God be kind to you and give you peace.

A point I have been trying to make for some time. Nobody can say anything about the un-observable with certainty. That why they call it faith.
BTW, please don’t put words in my mouth. I am more than capable of speaking for myself.

 

[fred_conty]

A point I have been trying to make for some time. Nobody can say anything about the un-observable with certainty. That why they call it faith.
BTW, please don’t put words in my mouth. I am more than capable of speaking for myself.

You mentioned control element by maintaining fear. That is not what it is at all. Many time people on CAF and people off of it want to know if they are going to heaven and how do they know. And to answer that, this whole question of man’s feedom and God’s grace comes into play in order to explain it, which then spider webs into predestination.

It is ok if you have a different outlook on it as a deist. But then your post #123 it a bit out of place in attributing to our faith fear to fill our pews and bad teaching force-fed to our youth. These remarks do not add anything to enlighten the ongoing discussion. Sometimes when new ideas are discovered, they are not easily assimulated and may be upsetting.

May God bless and keep you.

 

[oldcelt]

You mentioned control element by maintaining fear. That is not what it is at all. Many time people on CAF and people off of it want to know if they are going to heaven and how do they know. And to answer that, this whole question of man’s feedom and God’s grace comes into play in order to explain it, which then spider webs into predestination.

It is ok if you have a different outlook on it as a deist. But then your post #123 it a bit out of place in attributing to our faith fear to fill our pews and bad teaching force-fed to our youth. These remarks do not add anything to enlighten the ongoing discussion. Sometimes when new ideas are discovered, they are not easily assimulated and may be upsetting.

May God bless and keep you.

So, this is not an appeal to fear: “But supposing he supposes that you do know this already in your heart and that is the reason you think he hasn’t informed you. Isn’t that possible? Have you even had thoughts that say “I know better than to do this”? If you have, than inside you is what every man has…a conscience which informs one of right or wrong. So maybe he expects you also to know that there is a consequence to you actions just as he expects you to know right from wrong. He doesn’t have to spell it out loud…there maybe further results from this.”

John

 

[fred_conty]

So, this is not an appeal to fear: “But supposing he supposes that you do know this already in your heart and that is the reason you think he hasn’t informed you. Isn’t that possible? Have you even had thoughts that say “I know better than to do this”? If you have, than inside you is what every man has…a conscience which informs one of right or wrong. So maybe he expects you also to know that there is a consequence to you actions just as he expects you to know right from wrong. He doesn’t have to spell it out loud…there maybe further results from this.”

John

Than you for your response.

I would have to say no it is not an appeal to fear because conscience is nothing more than the intellect passing judgement on what we do. Conscience comes automatically with the intellect because it is the outcome of the intellect, a part of our nature.

We pass judgment in many ways in our ordinary life in our dealings with one another and with ourselves. This is illustrated by our judicial system. Men from the beginning have recognized its importance … to judge right and wrong, to pronounce judgment. It is part and partial of our dealings with one another … as to what is fair.

It is based on “do(due) to another as you would have them do(due) to you”. A justice system of our everyday life.

So in the heart of man there is this call to be just. And the only way this comes about is by the intellect weighing and balancing ideas to arrive at what is right and wrong.

I don’t think of fear as a first principle for this, but rather man’s desire to see justice in play. Fear I think comes after we have already formed the opinion that we ourselves are wrong and what the consequences flowing from that will be. And what robber thinks he will be caught?

An a-moral person is one without a conscience. But then we are talking about the ordinary not the exception.

I will say that the consequences of a wrong action is fearful. But then isn’t that natural? In decision making, isn’t it normal to think of all positions before we decide? And even then, don’t we fear many times we may be making the wrong decision? But we make the best judgment to our knowledge.

Fear is a part of our life, maybe not our constant companion, but non-the-less our watch dog to caution us and was given to us to protect and aid us. It is also given in certain aspects of religion to help and aid us in our decision making. Like a mother who says to her child, “don’t go over there.”

May God love you and keep you.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

All attempts to reconcile predestination with free will. It is a control element, By maintaining fear in people you hope to ensure full pews. Since the enlightenment, people have been more analytical and many have come to the realization that the things they were force-fed in their youth do not add up.

John

That’s the usual atheist line.

I haven’t noticed an improvement in the world in general since the so-called Enlightenment. The “enlightened” people have made a mess of everything as usual, from turning the environment filthy to inventing weapons of mass destruction so great as to bring on Armageddon somewhere sooner or later.

Atheists may one day rue the day they mocked Christianity as “stupid” since Christianity was the only world power strong enough to resist the westward push of Islam into Europe. It was not the atheists who joined the Crusades. But sooner or later they may have to mount a Crusade of their own against both Christianity and Islam.

That is going to be an interesting storm of events, no?

Perhaps the New Atheism is the start of a Crusade to force-feed their own propaganda.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Fear is a part of our life, maybe not our constant companion, but non-the-less our watch dog to caution us and was given to us to protect and aid us. It is also given in certain aspects of religion to help and aid us in our decision making. Like a mother who says to her child, “don’t go over there.”

Indeed, every time you step off a curb you had better be fearful of oncoming traffic.

That advice is not fear-mongering.

How much more careful we should be for our immortal souls. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.

“The fool in his heart says there is no God.” Psalms 14:1

 

[thinkandmull]

So God, who created the ontological reality, is incapable of altering it? There goes omnipotence and any need for prayer. Sounds like Deist leanings to me.

Its the same principle as that God cannot make something that happened not have been.

1. He chooses to create
2. The choses that are made in time are written into reality so to speak
3. As time unfolds, reality unfolds
4. Eternity is not a part of time behind time, so God knows what will happen from the happening He always show
5. The will to create came before the sin
   6 God cannot undo what is done

 

[oldcelt]

That’s the usual atheist line.

I haven’t noticed an improvement in the world in general since the so-called Enlightenment. The “enlightened” people have made a mess of everything as usual, from turning the environment filthy to inventing weapons of mass destruction so great as to bring on Armageddon somewhere sooner or later.

Atheists may one day rue the day they mocked Christianity as “stupid” since Christianity was the only world power strong enough to resist the westward push of Islam into Europe. It was not the atheists who joined the Crusades. But sooner or later they may have to mount a Crusade of their own against both Christianity and Islam.

That is going to be an interesting storm of events, no?

Perhaps the New Atheism is the start of a Crusade to force-feed their own propaganda.

I certainly see great improvements since the enlightenment. Cities were festering sewers, government and religion ruled by fear, medicine was a joke, etc., etc. You are aware that Christianity lost the Crusades, right? Just ask Richard the Lionheart and the Byzantine Empire.

 

[Tom_Baum]

"We answer, with St. John of Damascus, St. Thomas of Aquin, and the great body of Catholic Doctors, that with regard to the reprobation of sinners, it is necessary to distinguish between the priority of time and the priority of order, or, if we may say, of reason.

In priority of time, the Divine Decree is anterior to man’s sin; but in priority of order, sin is anterior to the Divine Decree; for God has decreed many sinners to hell, inasmuch as he has foreseen their sins. Hence we may see that God, with that antecedent will which regards his goodness, truly wills that all should be saved, but by that consequent will which regards the sins of the reprobate, he wishes their damnation." …St. Alphonsus

“I know the sun is shinning even when it isn’t shinning.” Christian hymn

May God’s face shine on you.

So are you saying that St Alphonsus is saying that God’s wishes trumps God’s Will, so to speak?

Seeing as it seems to say that God “truly wills that all should be saved” while it also seems to say that God “wishes their damnation”.

Maybe that is why when Jesus was asked by the Apostles to teach them how to pray, He said, “…Thy Will be done…” rather than “…Thy wishes be fulfilled…”, any thoughts on this?

 

[Tom_Baum]

That’s the usual atheist line.

I haven’t noticed an improvement in the world in general since the so-called Enlightenment. The “enlightened” people have made a mess of everything as usual, from turning the environment filthy to inventing weapons of mass destruction so great as to bring on Armageddon somewhere sooner or later.

Atheists may one day rue the day they mocked Christianity as “stupid” since Christianity was the only world power strong enough to resist the westward push of Islam into Europe. It was not the atheists who joined the Crusades. But sooner or later they may have to mount a Crusade of their own against both Christianity and Islam.

That is going to be an interesting storm of events, no?

Perhaps the New Atheism is the start of a Crusade to force-feed their own propaganda.

Do you really think of “Christianity” as a “world power”?

Didn’t Someone reportedly once say, “My Kingdom is NOT of this world”?

God just might have an idea of what is happening in the world and for that matter just might have known for quite a while before now what is happening now and into the future.

I happen to think/believe that God is Omniscient whereas others, that happen to believe in God, seem to think that God is “up there scratching His Head” whenever something happens and has to decide, “what am I going to do now”.

We are NOT puppets on strings and at the same time, God is NOT baffled by events.

 

[oldcelt]

Do you really think of “Christianity” as a “world power”?

Didn’t Someone reportedly once say, “My Kingdom is NOT of this world”?

God just might have an idea of what is happening in the world and for that matter just might have known for quite a while before now what is happening now and into the future.

**I happen to think/believe that God is Omniscient whereas others, that happen to believe in God, seem to think that God is “up there scratching His Head” whenever something happens and has to decide, “what am I going to do now”. **

We are NOT puppets on strings and at the same time, God is NOT baffled by events.

Another possibility…God does not have to scratch his head because he has no intention of intervening. The universe is self-managing, and so are we.

 

[rinnie]

What you said is contrary because everything is up to us.

How can it be contrary if what God wants and what we want is the same thing?

 

[rinnie]

All attempts to reconcile predestination with free will. It is a control element, By maintaining fear in people you hope to ensure full pews. Since the enlightenment, people have been more analytical and many have come to the realization that the things they were force-fed in their youth do not add up.

John

No, this is completely wrong in myself. I do not go to Church because of the fear of hell. I do not go to church because God has control over me.

I go to Church to submit myself to God and offer control to God over me by my own free will to do so.

If reconciling free will with predestination meant putting fear in a person, then all people would fear God and go to Church. You make no sense.

And people are not robots, God gave us a mind and free will to make choices to do right or wrong.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Another possibility…God does not have to scratch his head because he has no intention of intervening. The universe is self-managing, and so are we.

I would say that not only does God intervene but that God knew, before creation itself, just how and when God would intervene.

 

[oldcelt]

No, this is completely wrong in myself. I do not go to Church because of the fear of hell. I do not go to church because God has control over me.

I go to Church to submit myself to God and offer control to God over me by my own free will to do so.

If reconciling free will with predestination meant putting fear in a person, then all people would fear God and go to Church. You make no sense.

And people are not robots, God gave us a mind and free will to make choices to do right or wrong.

From an earlier post:

We may now briefly summarize the whole Catholic doctrine, which is in harmony with our reason as well as our moral sentiments. According to the doctrinal decisions of general and particular synods, God infallibly foresees and immutably preordains from eternity all future events (cf. Denzinger, n. 1784)

newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

Ecclesiastical approbation. Nihil Obstat. June 1, 1911. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.

As I have stated many times…their only answer to how this comports with free will is that it is a mystery.

To add…if I believed that God truly preordained events (which in itself denies free will) I would not be giving glory to that god, nor would many others. Obstinate hatred might be more like it.