Thomistic Predestination

[Charlemagne_III]

And this from the Catholic Encyclopedia article on free will:

Among the early Fathers of the Church, St. Augustine stands preeminent in his handling of this subject. He clearly teaches the freedom of the will against the Manichaeans, but insists against the Semipelagians on the necessity of grace, as a foundation of merit. He also emphasizes very strongly the absolute rule of God over men’s wills by His omnipotence and omniscience—through the infinite store, as it were, of motives which He has had at His disposal from all eternity, and by the foreknowledge of those to which the will of each human being would freely consent. **St. Augustine’s teaching formed the basis of much of the later theology of the Church on these questions, though other writers have sought to soften the more rigorous portions of his doctrine. This they did especially in opposition to heretical authors, who exaggerated these features in the works of the great African Doctor and attempted to deduce from his principles a form of rigid predeterminism little differing from fatalism. The teaching of St. Augustine is developed by St. Thomas Aquinas both in theology and philosophy. Will is rational appetite. Man necessarily desires beatitude, but he can freely choose between different forms of it. **Free will is simply this elective power.

 

[oldcelt]

And this from the Catholic Encyclopedia article on free will:

Among the early Fathers of the Church, St. Augustine stands preeminent in his handling of this subject. He clearly teaches the freedom of the will against the Manichaeans, but insists against the Semipelagians on the necessity of grace, as a foundation of merit. He also emphasizes very strongly the absolute rule of God over men’s wills by His omnipotence and omniscience—through the infinite store, as it were, of motives which He has had at His disposal from all eternity, and by the foreknowledge of those to which the will of each human being would freely consent. **St. Augustine’s teaching formed the basis of much of the later theology of the Church on these questions, though other writers have sought to soften the more rigorous portions of his doctrine. This they did especially in opposition to heretical authors, who exaggerated these features in the works of the great African Doctor and attempted to deduce from his principles a form of rigid predeterminism little differing from fatalism. The teaching of St. Augustine is developed by St. Thomas Aquinas both in theology and philosophy. Will is rational appetite. Man necessarily desires beatitude, but he can freely choose between different forms of it. **Free will is simply this elective power.

Keep going…then you may see how the explanations of predestination and free will are rather…insufficient…even to a mere human mind.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Keep going…then you may see how the explanations of predestination and free will are rather…insufficient…even to a mere human mind.

Sez you!

No doubt the matter is complex, but not unsolvable if one makes the effort.

So you see, if you are only going to offer one-liners, that is about all you are going to get back.

 

[oldcelt]

Sez you!

No doubt the matter is complex, but not unsolvable if one makes the effort.

So you see, if you are only going to offer one-liners, that is about all you are going to get back.

But, you’ve said nothing. One liners trump that.

 

[lmelahn]

The problem is that God knows that he does A and not B. Could he do B? No. This means that the person is trapped within his fate meaning that he always does what God knows although he is free.

I guess what I am saying is, why couldn’t God create a creature capable of choosing A or B for himself?

The fact that God sees what that creature actually chooses, it seems to me, doesn’t make the creature any less free.

 

[Bahman]

I guess what I am saying is, why couldn’t God create a creature capable of choosing A or B for himself?

The fact that God sees what that creature actually chooses, it seems to me, doesn’t make the creature any less free.

That is quite accurate but we have predesignate fate then. Hence everything depends on where you are born which you are not responsible for it.

 

[lmelahn]

That is quite accurate but we have predesignate fate then. Hence everything depends on where you are born which you are not responsible for it.

I mean, the fact that God knows that the creature will choose A (say) doesn’t mean that the creature was not capable of choosing B. It is not God that does the choosing for him.

 

[Bahman]

I mean, the fact that God knows that the creature will choose A (say) doesn’t mean that the creature was not capable of choosing B. It is not God that does the choosing for him.

Yes, it is not God who choose. This is the person who choose A freely but s/he always choose what God knows, real choice. So everything depends on where the person is born.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Yes, it is not God who choose. This is the person who choose A freely but s/he always choose what God knows, real choice. So everything depends on where the person is born.

Are you saying that God chooses where the person will be born? I thought it was the parents.

 

[lmelahn]

Yes, it is not God who choose. This is the person who choose A freely but s/he always choose what God knows, real choice. So everything depends on where the person is born.

That is more or less what the Stoics thought. And Leibnitz.

You don’t think that there is really such a thing as contingency? (Things that might be one way or the other.)

 

[Bahman]

Are you saying that God chooses where the person will be born? I thought it was the parents.

What I am trying to say is that everything is already designed within act creation. We are however free to act but we cannot escape our fates.

 

[Bahman]

That is more or less what the Stoics thought. And Leibnitz.

You don’t think that there is really such a thing as contingency? (Things that might be one way or the other.)

This is of course a big problem here. Consider two persons, X and Y, who X goes to heaven and Y goes to hell. Now just switch them and this time Y goes to heaven and X goes to hell. This means there is certain element of reality that each person is attached to, fate. This is basically fatalism.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

You don’t think that there is really such a thing as contingency? (Things that might be one way or the other.)

That is what our common sense tells us, that we have choices. We just have to choose the right over the wrong. People do it all the time. Only Flip Wilson said the Devil made him do it. No doubt the Devil is in the details, but so is God.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I guess what I am saying is, why couldn’t God create a creature capable of choosing A or B for himself?

The fact that God sees what that creature actually chooses, it seems to me, doesn’t make the creature any less free.

The following is my opinion and whether it is in line with what anyone else writes, I do not know.

I believe that God created us to be able to choose either A or B, free will in other words, but that God “knows” just what we will choose before we choose it.

I believe, firmly believe, that these two things seem to be in direct contradiction in our human mind, at least in my human mind, that is why I say that these two things (free will and God’s Omniscience in knowing how we will exercise our free will) is beyond our (human) ability to see how they can both be true.

I may not “understand” Omniscience but I do “know” what I consider the definition of Omniscience.

We are NOT puppets and God did NOT script the play, so to speak, we freely do what we do but God “knows” what we do before we do it.

As far as I am concerned, if you understand what I am trying to say, fine, however, if you understand how this can be, than it is my firm belief that you do not see what I am trying to say.

No one has to agree with what I write but it would sure be nice if anyone could see what I am writing concerning this.

It is my firm belief that there are things about God that are beyond our human ability to understand, to put it mildly.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Yes, it is not God who choose. This is the person who choose A freely but s/he always choose what God knows, real choice. So everything depends on where the person is born.

It seems that the God/god of your conception is NOT capable of being Omniscient and creating beings with free will but that does not mean that God is not capable of being Omniscient and creating beings with free will.

Just because you can not conceive of a God as being able to do things that you consider impossible doesn’t mean that it is impossible for God to do such things.

It just means that a GOD such as this is beyond your comprehension or conceivability.

 

[Tom_Baum]

This is of course a big problem here. Consider two persons, X and Y, who X goes to heaven and Y goes to hell. Now just switch them and this time Y goes to heaven and X goes to hell. This means there is certain element of reality that each person is attached to, fate. This is basically fatalism.

As far as “fatalism” goes, ever thought that God could have taken into account what God’s Omniscience taught God, so to speak, and fashioned God’s Plan accordingly?

Many seem to think that they know absolutely everything about God’s Plan, could be that their “knowledge” concerning God’s Plan is, to say the least, not absolute.

 

[Bahman]

It seems that the God/god of your conception is NOT capable of being Omniscient and creating beings with free will but that does not mean that God is not capable of being Omniscient and creating beings with free will.

Just because you can not conceive of a God as being able to do things that you consider impossible doesn’t mean that it is impossible for God to do such things.

It just means that a GOD such as this is beyond your comprehension or conceivability.

Words like incomprehension only have a use when there is something wrong within our believes in the place that the logic point to it, yet we keep striving in the wrong belief!

 

[Bahman]

As far as “fatalism” goes, ever thought that God could have taken into account what God’s Omniscience taught God, so to speak, and fashioned God’s Plan accordingly?

Many seem to think that they know absolutely everything about God’s Plan, could be that their “knowledge” concerning God’s Plan is, to say the least, not absolute.

You are not making any argument. Didn’t I challenge the divine justice of your God well?

 

[wmw]

It seems that the God/god of your conception is NOT capable of being Omniscient and creating beings with free will but that does not mean that God is not capable of being Omniscient and creating beings with free will.

Just because you can not conceive of a God as being able to do things that you consider impossible doesn’t mean that it is impossible for God to do such things.

It just means that a GOD such as this is beyond your comprehension or conceivability.

Well said Tom,
The fatalists are blind to seeing anything, but fatalism. The only argument they have is to deny your happiness in nonfatalism.

 

[Bahman]

Well said Tom,
The fatalists are blind to seeing anything, but fatalism. The only argument they have is to deny your happiness in nonfatalism.

You got me wrong. I don’t believe in fatalism instead claiming that your very notion of God and creation leads to fatalism.

Moreover, I think that God should be definable for any conscious being otherwise the act creation is against divine justice!