Thomistic Predestination

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“can we make room for a loving and merciful God?” That’s exactly what I’m fight for

God can see the future even though it doesn’t exist in a way we can’t understand. Its not contradictory
Which if I’m following you correctly, you would argue is NOT Aquinas’s position, right?

And on a side note, why not just say God can know the future because the future exists, rather than say He can know the future without explanation?
 
I think that the 3rd option does not entail determinism. It is man’s choices which determine God’s knowledge not the other way around. God is not the first cause of the choice. But that is off topic
God is the first cause of the choice, to the degree that it is an act of our will (because He gives being to that act), and also to the degree that it is a good act. (All goodness participates in His goodness, and also, all choices for the good have Him as the ultimate final cause.)

He is not strictly the first cause of our failure to act correctly, because that is a privation of good, hence not a real being.

What a lot of people miss, however, is (1) secondary causes (like our wills) are real causes and (2) God’s action as first cause is mediated through the structures of our substance: our act of being, essence, and faculties.

The bottom line is, for Thomas, we are not automata in the hands of God. We really act and produce effects.

A topic for another thread, if you are interested.
It seems then, if your interpretation of Aquinas is correct, that he was basically opting for #3. Aquinas wasn’t a molinist. And Aquinas wouldn’t know our choices by causing them, so they must be the cause of God’s knowledge. But for Aquinas, this seems problematic.
Yes, it would definitely have been scientia visionis, although not exactly in the same way that de Molina thought it, as I explained.
I agree Aquinas did not think the of the future as existing. However, I think that this is inconsistent. If God sees all of eternity, how can He see the future unless the future exists? The only other answer seems to be that God is the complete cause of the future so He sees the future as its cause, this is the answer many Thomists would give. But if He is not complete cause of the future (e.g. free-choices) then God can only see the future as it is, that is, as a reality.
God is entirely outside the cycle of coming-into-existence and going-out-of-existence. He decides when something comes to be, how long it endures, and when it will stop being. That is the answer Thomas gives. (If I remember rightly, it is in the De veritate that I mentioned to you. I will look it up if you are interested, because Thomas explains it better than I can.)

Look at it this way. Suppose I draw a line segment: I decide where it starts, how long the segment is, an when it ends. Suppose that (like God) I could do it without having to take my pencil and actually drag it across the sheet of paper, but just will it to be. I am completely outside the space occupied by that line segment.

Well, God has a similar (and indeed even more transcendent) relationship with time. That is the idea.

Just as for me, the line “exists” from the 3-inch position up until the 7-inch position, even for God, I began to exist in 1978, and I have lasted until today. (And since I am fortunate enough to be a spiritual being, I will exist forever into the future.) But (even for God) my future doctorate (if I am so fortunate, anyway!) does not exist yet. He sees it already (assuming that it will exist in the future), but even for Him, it starts being in 2017 (which when I hope to have it finished).

The other difference between God’s relationship with time and ours, is that God makes these things so, whereas we simply experience them.
I think this is a strong argument in favor of God’s predestination being the cause of actions, not His foreknowledge. But if this is the case, can we make room for a loving and merciful God?
Here is the idea (which can be confusing if you are not familiar with St. Thomas’ way of thinking): predestination (a species of providence) is foreknowledge, fundamentally. (Notice how Thomas makes use of the etymology of “providence”: literally a “fore-seeing.”)

However, God’s knowledge is also a cause. When we know something, the thing modifies our intellect so that our intellect corresponds to the thing known. When God knows something (outside Himself, naturally), He lines up the thing known so as to have it correspond to His intellect (which is not distinct from Himself). (As a side note, this is, in a nutshell the doctrine of the Divine Ideas, as Thomas interprets it. God is the “model” based on which all His creation is made.)

So, sure predestination is a cause, and it has an effect (namely, salvation). However, it is a first cause, and God makes use of real secondary causes to produce that effect, including the free acts of our will (also, the prayers of the saints, the administration of the Sacraments, and so on). For Thomas, the proper effect of God–the First Cause–is to give being (esse, literally “to be”) to His creatures. That is because He is Being Itself (Ipsum Esse). Our different perfections (what Aquinas calls “second act”) are brought about by the mediation of our act of being, our essence, and our faculties, as I mentioned–and this is precisely the domain of secondary causality. Our eternal salvation is among those perfections.

(St. Thomas is a very much a Neoplatonist at heart, even though he takes a lot from Aristotle, obviously. This sort of “cascade” of perfections is typical of Neoplatonism, although Aquinas naturally takes great pains to baptize the Neoplatonic elements of his philosophy.)

Anyway, with Thomas I have no problem saying that predestination is the first cause of our salvation, even of the actions that lead to our salvation. However, that does not mean that those same effects are not really brought about as well by secondary causes (most notably, the free acts of our wills, but not only, as I mentioned).
 
However, God’s knowledge is also a cause. When we know something, the thing modifies our intellect so that our intellect corresponds to the thing known. When God knows something (outside Himself, naturally), He lines up the thing known so as to have it correspond to His intellect (which is not distinct from Himself). (As a side note, this is, in a nutshell the doctrine of the Divine Ideas, as Thomas interprets it. God is the “model” based on which all His creation is made.)
This is why it is a mistake to reduce God’s knowledge of futures to a mere “causal” knowledge, as if God has to “deduce” the effects of what He will do (as would be necessary for us).

No: God knows things, and in that very act He creates them (and sees them). He even sees when they will exist and how they will turn out.
 
He is not strictly the first cause of our failure to act correctly, because that is a privation of good, hence not a real being.
A clarification: God is not the cause of our failure to act (which is at the root of every sinful action–every sin is a privation of a due good).

However, He is (through reprobation) the first cause of our condemnation, if that should be our fate.
 
And all three positions pose major problems.
On the first one, it is clear that human beings are not responsible for their actions and choices.
On the second one, this is less clear. But if you take a closer look at it, Molina’s position entails that, ‘before’ God actualizes a perosn X, there is already a truth about this person X , namely that X will do A in situation S, which, since person X doesn’t exist yet, X cannot be responsible for.
The third option logically entails the first one if God is the creator of everything.
If there are such things as secondary causes, we are stull stuck with a form of determinism.
In simple world how it could be created if it is unknown and how it could be free if it is known! Keep it up. 👍
 
You’re still not getting this lmelahn. Aquinas says “individual creatures exist for the perfection of the universe”. That’s not love. He also says that God loves everything to the same, single act of Love. So apart from willing a good to it, the personally loving side of it looks like this: He loves a stone the same as a baby! That’s not love. Prayers of the saints further predestination in his system because they are predestine too. The are bringing about the actualization of the predestination, which is NOT based on foreknowledge, as I already quoted the article one. “God allows some evils, lest many good things should never happen, as was said above. Let us then consider the whole of the human race, as we consider the whole universe. God wills to manifest His goodness in men; in respect to those whom He predestines, by means of His mercy, as sparing them; and in respect of others, whom he reprobates, by means of His justice, in punishing them.” Therefore God allows people to go to hell to make a point. Meet Aquinas!!

“However, God’s knowledge is also a cause. When we know something, the thing modifies our intellect so that our intellect corresponds to the thing known. When God knows something (outside Himself, naturally), He lines up the thing known so as to have it correspond to His intellect (which is not distinct from Himself).”

So you are saying that contingent this change God’s Ideas, that is, His Nature?

“is foreknowledge, fundamentally. (Notice how Thomas makes use of the etymology of ‘providence’: literally a ‘fore-seeing.’)”

I don’t know where you are getting this translation. He says over and over again that predestination is providence but has a whole article saying it is not foreknowledge
 
You’re still not getting this lmelahn. Aquinas says “individual creatures exist for the perfection of the universe”. That’s not love. He also says that God loves everything to the same, single act of Love. So apart from willing a good to it, the personally loving side of it looks like this: He loves a stone the same as a baby! That’s not love. Prayers of the saints further predestination in his system because they are predestine too. The are bringing about the actualization of the predestination, which is NOT based on foreknowledge, as I already quoted the article one. “God allows some evils, lest many good things should never happen, as was said above. Let us then consider the whole of the human race, as we consider the whole universe. God wills to manifest His goodness in men; in respect to those whom He predestines, by means of His mercy, as sparing them; and in respect of others, whom he reprobates, by means of His justice, in punishing them.” Therefore God allows people to go to hell to make a point. Meet Aquinas!!

“However, God’s knowledge is also a cause. When we know something, the thing modifies our intellect so that our intellect corresponds to the thing known. When God knows something (outside Himself, naturally), He lines up the thing known so as to have it correspond to His intellect (which is not distinct from Himself).”

…]

“is foreknowledge, fundamentally. (Notice how Thomas makes use of the etymology of ‘providence’: literally a ‘fore-seeing.’)”

I don’t know where you are getting this translation. He says over and over again that predestination is providence but has a whole article saying it is not foreknowledge
Well, I showed in previous threads where Thomas himself defines predestination as a kind of foreknowledge, and also why I think that your conclusion does not follow from the passage you have quoted, so I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. I think that my interpretation faithfully represents Aquinas’ thought, but you are free to adopt a different opinion, naturally.
So you are saying that contingent this change God’s Ideas, that is, His Nature?
Good question. No. God is the “model” from which all things are created, but the “model” is not changed by that creation. (For example, there are good men and wise men; they are good and wise precisely because their goodness and wisdom participate in God’s infinite goodness and wisdom.) It doesn’t really matter whether the thing is contingent or not; all things have God as their first cause.
 
God would still know that he decided freely to create, and if His ideas are Himself, than He changes. There are so many contradictions on Aquinas’s version of God.

Predestination is only a type of knowledge precisely **because **it is providence. Aquinas has a whole article arguing that God’s will is **always **fulfilled I haven’t quoted for you yet. But if you don’t want to talk further thats alright. But I think any honest person reading my posts vs yours will see that Aquinas believed in a cruel God
 
God would still know that he decided freely to create, and if His ideas are Himself, than He changes. There are so many contradictions on Aquinas’s version of God.

Predestination is only a type of knowledge precisely **because **it is providence. Aquinas has a whole article arguing that God’s will is **always **fulfilled I haven’t quoted for you yet. But if you don’t want to talk further thats alright. But I think any honest person reading my posts vs yours will see that Aquinas believed in a cruel God
Actually, I think a great many Christians have, and do feel the same. Christianity was once as much a political tool as it was a faith. It was used to maintain social order and justify the actions of monarchs for centuries. Remember the Divine Right of Kings? Fear of death and eternal damnation were great tools until the enlightenment. It has been diminishing ever since.
 
God would still know that he decided freely to create, and if His ideas are Himself, than He changes. There are so many contradictions on Aquinas’s version of God.
I am not following you here. Why should the fact that God knows what He is doing produce a change in Him? He does not know by means of mental representations, the way we do, but through the very fact that He is identical with His essence. (Aquinas is very careful to note that the Divine Ideas are the very same thing as His essence: an Idea is just His essence considered as the model for one of His creatures.)
Predestination is only a type of knowledge precisely **because **it is providence.
Well, OK, but providence is also a kind of knowledge (a ratio ordinis, Aquinas calls it).
Aquinas has a whole article arguing that God’s will is **always **fulfilled I haven’t quoted for you yet.
I concede that God’s will is always fulfilled. I think that is a reasonable principle that everyone can agree on.
But if you don’t want to talk further thats alright. But I think any honest person reading my posts vs yours will see that Aquinas believed in a cruel God
I don’t mind talking about it, but I am trying to understanding your reasoning for saying that, if God always fulfills His will, the salvation and damnation of His creatures is pre-determined. (I think I have good reasons for thinking that Aquinas did not think that, as I have noted, but let’s leave that aside for the moment: here I am interested in your own reasoning.)
 
I am not following you here. Why should the fact that God knows what He is doing produce a change in Him? He does not know by means of mental representations, the way we do, but through the very fact that He is identical with His essence. (Aquinas is very careful to note that the Divine Ideas are the very same thing as His essence: an Idea is just His essence considered as the model for one of His creatures.)

Well, OK, but providence is also a kind of knowledge (a ratio ordinis, Aquinas calls it).

I concede that God’s will is always fulfilled. I think that is a reasonable principle that everyone can agree on.

I don’t mind talking about it, but I am trying to understanding your reasoning for saying that, if God always fulfills His will, the salvation and damnation of His creatures is pre-determined. (I think I have good reasons for thinking that Aquinas did not think that, as I have noted, but let’s leave that aside for the moment: here I am interested in your own reasoning.)
If the bolded section is true, then salvation is predetermined and humans have no free will. Why? Because the Christian God is omniscient and knew infallibly from creation every human action.(this can be found in the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia) Since he is creator and willed this, his creations have no options.
 
If the bolded section is true, then salvation is predetermined and humans have no free will. Why? Because the Christian God is omniscient and knew infallibly from creation every human action.(this can be found in the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia) Since he is creator and willed this, his creations have no options.
In my opinion, you have not demonstrated that because God knows what will happen, that he therefore fixes the outcome.

It seems to me that He could easily leave the decision to each creature–that is, endow them with the capability of deciding.

I am interested in understanding your reasoning to the contrary.
 
In my opinion, you have not demonstrated that because God knows what will happen, that he therefore fixes the outcome.

It seems to me that He could easily leave the decision to each creature–that is, endow them with the capability of deciding.

I am interested in understanding your reasoning to the contrary.
In New Advent it also states clearly that the Catholic God preordains all future events from all eternity. The links are all over the threads related to free will and predestination. It is Church Dogma. They attempt, with no offer of any logical proof to say that people still have free will…and it is almost sad, IMO.
This is the very reason that I left the Church.
We may now briefly summarize the whole Catholic doctrine, which is in harmony with our reason as well as our moral sentiments. According to the doctrinal decisions of general and particular synods, God infallibly foresees and immutably preordains from eternity all future events
newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm
 
We may now briefly summarize the whole Catholic doctrine, which is in harmony with our reason as well as our moral sentiments. According to the doctrinal decisions of general and particular synods, God infallibly foresees and immutably preordains from eternity all future events
newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

I believe that immutably is synonymous with unchanging, isn’t it? Hard to line that up with free will…no matter how they try.
 
oldcelt, I’ve already answered that quote from the Old CE. That’s either a Thomistic interpretation of the Councils, or it preordain means to “comfirm” what happens, although its fuzzy what that would actually mean. You shouldn’t have left the Church because you could have been a Molinist.
  1. There is some potentiality in God. He freely chooses to create, and that changes His knowledge of what has transpired.
  2. Aquinas says “individual creatures exist for the perfection of the universe”.
  3. Aquinas says that God loves everything to the one, single act of Love. So he doesn’t love a stone more than a baby
  4. “God allows some evils, lest many good things should never happen, as was said above. Let us then consider the whole of the human race, as we consider the whole universe. God wills to manifest His goodness in men; in respect to those whom He predestines, by means of His mercy, as sparing them; and in respect of others, whom he reprobates, by means of His justice, in punishing them.” If God allows people to go to hell than He could have prevented it. Why didn’t He? Because Aquinas believe that punishment is an end in itself
  5. "It is fitting that God should predestine men. For all things are subject to His providence, as was shown above (Question 22, Article 2). Now it belongs to providence to direct things towards their end, as was also said (22, 1, 2).
  6. “God does reprobate some. For it was said above (Article 1) that predestination is a part of providence. To providence, however, it belongs to permit certain defects in those things which are subject to providence, as was said above (Question 22, Article 2). Thus, as men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it likewise is part of that providence to permit some to fall away from that end; this is called reprobation. Thus, as predestination is a part of providence, in regard to those ordained to eternal salvation, so reprobation is a part of providence in regard to those who turn aside from that end. Hence reprobation implies not only foreknowledge, but also something more, as does providence, as was said above (Question 22, Article 1). Therefore, as predestination includes the will to confer grace and glory; so also reprobation includes the will to permit a person to fall into sin, and to impose the punishment of damnation on account of that sin.”
 
“Since, then, the will of God is the universal cause of all things, it is impossible that the divine will should not produce its effect.” He doesn’t say that God produces a lesser effect of His will after one dies in mortal sin. Aquinas says that God’s intention is the GOOD OF THE UNIVERSE, which means a proportion between damned and saved. He desires the salvation of the reprobates, which is why He gives sufficient grace, but He desires their damnation, for the good of the universe, MORE, which is why He withholds efficacious grace

Objection 1. It seems that the will of God is not always fulfilled. For the Apostle says (1 Timothy 2:4): “God will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” But this does not happen. Therefore the will of God is not always fulfilled.

Reply to Objection 1. The words of the Apostle, “God will have all men to be saved,” etc. can be understood… by a restricted application, in which case they would mean, as Augustine says (De praed. sanct. i, 8: Enchiridion 103), “God wills all men to be saved that are saved, not because there is no man whom He does not wish saved, but because there is no man saved whose salvation He does not will.”
 
Fr. Most has an article on EWTN in critique of Augustine, so he must have been opposed to Aquinas as well
 
oldcelt, I’ve already answered that quote from the Old CE. That’s either a Thomistic interpretation of the Councils, or it preordain means to “comfirm” what happens, although its fuzzy what that would actually mean. You shouldn’t have left the Church because you could have been a Molinist.
  1. There is some potentiality in God. He freely chooses to create, and that changes His knowledge of what has transpired.
  2. Aquinas says “individual creatures exist for the perfection of the universe”.
  3. Aquinas says that God loves everything to the one, single act of Love. So he doesn’t love a stone more than a baby
  4. “God allows some evils, lest many good things should never happen, as was said above. Let us then consider the whole of the human race, as we consider the whole universe. God wills to manifest His goodness in men; in respect to those whom He predestines, by means of His mercy, as sparing them; and in respect of others, whom he reprobates, by means of His justice, in punishing them.” If God allows people to go to hell than He could have prevented it. Why didn’t He? Because Aquinas believe that punishment is an end in itself
  5. "It is fitting that God should predestine men. For all things are subject to His providence, as was shown above (Question 22, Article 2). Now it belongs to providence to direct things towards their end, as was also said (22, 1, 2).
  6. “God does reprobate some. For it was said above (Article 1) that predestination is a part of providence. To providence, however, it belongs to permit certain defects in those things which are subject to providence, as was said above (Question 22, Article 2). Thus, as men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it likewise is part of that providence to permit some to fall away from that end; this is called reprobation. Thus, as predestination is a part of providence, in regard to those ordained to eternal salvation, so reprobation is a part of providence in regard to those who turn aside from that end. Hence reprobation implies not only foreknowledge, but also something more, as does providence, as was said above (Question 22, Article 1). Therefore, as predestination includes the will to confer grace and glory; so also reprobation includes the will to permit a person to fall into sin, and to impose the punishment of damnation on account of that sin.”
All of what you have quoted makes God sound willfully petty, discriminatory and cruel. I believe now in a totally neutral, non-interventionist god. Our free will is absolute, and the end is likely the end, with only one other possibility IMO.

Be well,

John
 
For free will to exist, the future must be unknown/indeterminate.

God Himself does not know the future. That however, does not prevent Him from planning for the future. If God is a reasonable God, it would follow He is logical. The universe expresses His majesty and mathematics and logic gives us a glimpse of His fathomless and infinite mind. It may be fathomless and infinite, but even infinity is still reasonable and comprehensible, discoverable. Difficult, but we are able to understand how to use them. The beauty of it is that logic, even gives us an analogy of a way out, courtesy of Godel’s theorems and Church and Turing.

If you believe that mathematics and logic are the product of the mind of God, and you know it to be good, obviously it would make sense that the Being who has this mind is also reasonable. Reason does not reduce Him into a machine.

To illustrate:
  1. God didn’t know the rebellion of Lucifer, but He obviously found a solution to this problem. Incidentally, this is a perfect analogy to the problem of giving unrestricted ability to Artificial Intelligence and the problem it might cause man. And since we are not God, the outcome can be pretty devastating, for the universe even - no joke.
  2. I believe that He didn’t know creation would look so good otherwise Genesis would have said, “and He KNEW that the light was good, OF COURSE!..”
  3. He didn’t know that creating man in His image with the corresponding free will, will also result in man’s downfall and expulsion from Paradise. But after man’s downfall, He laid out a plan to save His creation. Obviously, man was dearer to God than the angels; otherwise, we shouldn’t expect Armageddon in the end when He defeats Satan. In God’s own words, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son…” To elucidate on this, refer to Genesis chapter 5; and to make it easier for you, watch: youtube.com/watch?v=HUs8f-lphec to summarize what this means.
Could God have created a deterministic universe/creation? Sure. But it would be boring and it’s like cheating Himself. You might say to yourself, “What for? It doesn’t make sense!”

To dig deeper into logic, mathematics and science is to understand more fully the mind of God. We do not live in a Looney Tunes universe where anything can happen and the rules of logic are meaningless.
You wrote, “For free will to exist, the future must be unknown/indeterminate.”

Just because it is inconceivable to you that God can be Omniscient (knowing absolutely everything about everything past, present and future) and us having free will, does NOT mean that it is not so, it just means that it is inconceivable to you.

You also wrote, "To illustrate:
  1. God didn’t know the rebellion of Lucifer, but He obviously found a solution to this problem. Incidentally, this is a perfect analogy to the problem of giving unrestricted ability to Artificial Intelligence and the problem it might cause man. And since we are not God, the outcome can be pretty devastating, for the universe even - no joke.
  2. I believe that He didn’t know creation would look so good otherwise Genesis would have said, “and He KNEW that the light was good, OF COURSE!..”
  3. He didn’t know that creating man in His image with the corresponding free will, will also result in man’s downfall and expulsion from Paradise. But after man’s downfall, He laid out a plan to save His creation. Obviously, man was dearer to God than the angels; otherwise, we shouldn’t expect Armageddon in the end when He defeats Satan. In God’s own words, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son…” To elucidate on this, refer to Genesis chapter 5; and to make it easier for you, watch: youtube.com/watch?v=HUs8f-lphec to summarize what this means."
So do you really think that God was up there scratching His Head, so to speak, deciding what to do as each crisis came along?

I do NOT think/ believe that God is as “little” as you seem to think God to be.

I think/believe that God knew exactly what satan was going to do, exactly all about the “fall” and exactly that God was going to become One of us before creation itself.

Just because “things” are beyond our comprehension does NOT mean that they are beyond God’s comprehension.

As far as, “To dig deeper into logic, mathematics and science is to understand more fully the mind of God. We do not live in a Looney Tunes universe where anything can happen and the rules of logic are meaningless.”

Do you expect us to come up with this ‘formula’ “to understand more fully the mind of God”, anytime soon?

Just because God created creation to function with the laws of nature and/or science, however one wishes to phrase it, does NOT mean that God has to “function” according to these “laws”.
 
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