Thomistic Predestination

[GaryTaylor]

The following is my opinion and whether it is in line with what anyone else writes, I do not know.

I believe that God created us to be able to choose either A or B, free will in other words, but that God “knows” just what we will choose before we choose it.

I believe, firmly believe, that these two things seem to be in direct contradiction in our human mind, at least in my human mind, that is why I say that these two things (free will and God’s Omniscience in knowing how we will exercise our free will) is beyond our (human) ability to see how they can both be true.

I may not “understand” Omniscience but I do “know” what I consider the definition of Omniscience.

We are NOT puppets and God did NOT script the play, so to speak, we freely do what we do but God “knows” what we do before we do it.

As far as I am concerned, if you understand what I am trying to say, fine, however, if you understand how this can be, than it is my firm belief that you do not see what I am trying to say.

No one has to agree with what I write but it would sure be nice if anyone could see what I am writing concerning this.

It is my firm belief that there are things about God that are beyond our human ability to understand, to put it mildly.

OK, but we are merely talking, no harm in exercising your mind. If we don’t think outside the box because of fear of being wrong, we could never make progress. Theories fail all the time in the lab. If fact you can count on it. Being wrong part of time is really part of new understanding. We shouldn’t be of fear of talking 2015 and believe we can go no further than the 13th century. Think of how much more we know now.

However, there is really only One Choice, there is right and wrong. There is no third choice that I can think of

 

[GaryTaylor]

So you freely reject or respond to the divine will? Strictly speaking its A or B? Or further right or wrong?

 

[Bahman]

So you freely reject or respond to the divine will? Strictly speaking its A or B? Or further right or wrong?

You can become God’s will at God’s disposal.

 

[wmw]

You got me wrong. I don’t believe in fatalism instead claiming that your very notion of God and creation leads to fatalism.

Moreover, I think that God should be definable for any conscious being otherwise the act creation is against divine justice!

My size shoe box should be just the right size for this god that is definable for the least imaginative conscious on earth.

We should be very suspect of much we might guess about Him. To start decreeing things separately from the theologians of proven talent is far out of our place.

 

[oldcelt]

My size shoe box should be just the right size for this god that is definable for the least imaginative conscious on earth.

We should be very suspect of much we might guess about Him. To start decreeing things separately from the theologians of proven talent is far out of our place.

The problem with such a life philosophy is that it assumes that these theologians are moral, open-minded and correct. For me, that is too much power since many theologians proceed from the notion that their version of god is the only possibility. Therefore, their apologia is slanted from the very beginning.

 

[Bahman]

My size shoe box should be just the right size for this god that is definable for the least imaginative conscious on earth.

We should be very suspect of much we might guess about Him. To start decreeing things separately from the theologians of proven talent is far out of our place.

It is not very far from you. It is very you, consciousness.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Words like incomprehension only have a use when there is something wrong within our believes in the place that the logic point to it, yet we keep striving in the wrong belief!

So everything about the “God” of your beliefs can be figured out with logic and/or reasoning?

I could be wrong but it sounds to me that the “God” of your beliefs is pretty much just a very “smart machine” that did not need to be made.

For one thing, I have met God and in meeting God I realized that God Is a Being of Love as opposed to Love being an attribute of God and this is beyond my comprehension even though I know it to be.

The only reason I know that this is a literal truth is that it was revealed to me.

I, personally, believe that this can never be “figured out” using logic.

Some may consider others as having “wrong beliefs”, could be that some just have very “small” beliefs concerning God.

 

[Tom_Baum]

You are not making any argument.

I don’t know whether or not I am “making any argument” but I wrote something to think about.

Didn’t I challenge the divine justice of your God well?

What was your “challenges”?

 

[Tom_Baum]

You got me wrong. I don’t believe in fatalism instead claiming that your very notion of God and creation leads to fatalism.

It may lead some to “fatalism”.

It may lead others to believing in a God Who Is better than most think possible and to hope for something that many feel is beyond hope.

Moreover, I think that God should be definable for any conscious being otherwise the act creation is against divine justice!

In other words, you do NOT want God to be God but to be “small” enough for you to comprehend.

Could you explain what you mean by “the act creation is against divine justice”?

 

[Tom_Baum]

OK, but we are merely talking, no harm in exercising your mind. If we don’t think outside the box because of fear of being wrong, we could never make progress. Theories fail all the time in the lab. If fact you can count on it. Being wrong part of time is really part of new understanding. We shouldn’t be of fear of talking 2015 and believe we can go no further than the 13th century. Think of how much more we know now.

I have never said that we should not use our mind, as a matter of fact, I have said that our mind is a gift from God and I believe that God gave us this gift to should use it since there are many things about creation that, I believe, God made to be figured out and God gave us a way to figure things out.

And as far as thinking “outside the box”, I think that “thinking outside of the Catholic box” should also be included in “thinking outside the box”.

Do you include this in your “thinking outside the box”?

However, there is really only One Choice, there is right and wrong. There is no third choice that I can think of

Living in the real world is NOT always a choice between “black and white”, so to speak, many times we have to work in the gray areas since that which appears to be “white” has “black” mixed in with it and that which appears to be “black” has “white” mixed in with it.

White and black being metaphors as something being all good or all bad.

 

[Bahman]

So everything about the “God” of your beliefs can be figured out with logic and/or reasoning?

It could be tested only. Logic a method for differentiating true from false.

I could be wrong but it sounds to me that the “God” of your beliefs is pretty much just a very “smart machine” that did not need to be made.

It is consciousness.

For one thing, I have met God and in meeting God I realized that God Is a Being of Love as opposed to Love being an attribute of God and this is beyond my comprehension even though I know it to be.

Why it is beyond comprehension if it is love? By the way, love is just a mental state which reside in consciousness.

The only reason I know that this is a literal truth is that it was revealed to me.

Revelation has no truth unless it is personal.

I, personally, believe that this can never be “figured out” using logic.

Well, logic is one of the tools we have in our disposal.

 

[Bahman]

I don’t know whether or not I am “making any argument” but I wrote something to think about.

What was your “challenges”?

That your view of God and create leads to fatalism.

 

[Bahman]

It may lead some to “fatalism”.

It may lead others to believing in a God Who Is better than most think possible and to hope for something that many feel is beyond hope.

The very fact that God sees your future means that you have a fate. The fact that you can act free doesn’t change thing unfortunately.

In other words, you do NOT want God to be God but to be “small” enough for you to comprehend.

Why not? I know, we human like mystery which we cannot resolve.

Could you explain what you mean by “the act creation is against divine justice”?

It means that the act creation should be just.

 

[davidv]

The very fact that God sees your future means that you have a fate. The fact that you can act free doesn’t change thing unfortunately.

Only if you can prove knowledge equals cause. No one has ever done so except fallaciously.

Why not? I know, we human like mystery which we cannot resolve.

It means that the act creation should be just.

 

[thinkandmull]

My reasoning is quite simple: When a being that is all-knowing regarding future events creates someone, that creator does so with perfect knowledge of their ultimate fate. He has predestined them by the mere creative act. If you then add the power to preordain future events, and the fix is in.

BTW, so far as the encyclopedia goes, Catholic Answers thought enough of it to invest in a print edition in 2007 and has it here on its website. oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Home Just maybe some don’t like what is in plain print.

The knowledge of their fate comes at the exact moment of His willing their existence, and than it is too late. Time doesn’t happen after eternity, and even if it did, that doesn’t mean God can change what ontologically was objective.
As for the Old Catholic Encyclopedia “Now, it is rather daring to quote one of the most difficult and **obscure **passages of the Bible as a ‘classical text’ and then to base on it an argument for bold speculation. To be more specific, it is **impossible **to draw the **details **of the picture in which the **Apostle **compares God to the potter who hath ‘power over the clay, of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor’ (Rom., ix, 21), without falling into the **Calvinistic **blasphemy that God predestined some men to hell and sin just as positively as he pre-elected others to eternal life.” Its sad that put a part of the Bible down like that and didn’t find a way to explain it (as I have done in a previous thread), and than admit that it is Calvinistic.

 

[oldcelt]

The knowledge of their fate comes at the exact moment of His willing their existence, and than it is too late. Time doesn’t happen after eternity, and even if it did, that doesn’t mean God can change what ontologically was objective.
As for the Old Catholic Encyclopedia “Now, it is rather daring to quote one of the most difficult and **obscure **passages of the Bible as a ‘classical text’ and then to base on it an argument for bold speculation. To be more specific, it is **impossible **to draw the **details **of the picture in which the **Apostle **compares God to the potter who hath ‘power over the clay, of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor’ (Rom., ix, 21), without falling into the **Calvinistic **blasphemy that God predestined some men to hell and sin just as positively as he pre-elected others to eternal life.” Its sad that put a part of the Bible down like that and didn’t find a way to explain it (as I have done in a previous thread), and than admit that it is Calvinistic.

It is all entirely beyond the scope of human logic. I am no Calvinist, but a Deist who believes in absolute free will. I only use the Catholic Encyclopedia to demonstrate some holes in my former faith. All beliefs are created by men…without exception, IMHO.

John

 

[Bahman]

Only if you can prove knowledge equals cause. No one has ever done so except fallaciously.

Knowledge is equal to fate. We couldn’t be free if knowledge was equal to cause.

 

[Tom_Baum]

It could be tested only. Logic a method for differentiating true from false.

It is my belief that if EVERYTHING about the God of your beliefs can be tested with logic than the “God of your beliefs” is quite small.

It is consciousness.

Is it possible for you to expand somewhat on your belief that God Is consciousness?

Why it is beyond comprehension if it is love? By the way, love is just a mental state which reside in consciousness.

I already know that God being a Being of Love is beyond my comprehension and your answer is a “proof” that it is beyond yours.

Revelation has no truth unless it is personal.

Truth Is Truth, it is not contingent on it being a personal revelation or it being believed by anyone or for that matter, being known by anyone.

Well, logic is one of the tools we have in our disposal.

Logic, definitely, “is one of the tools we have in our disposal” but as I have attempted to point out, logic has its limitations.

 

[oldcelt]

The knowledge of their fate comes at the exact moment of His willing their existence, and than it is too late. Time doesn’t happen after eternity, and even if it did, that doesn’t mean God can change what ontologically was objective.
As for the Old Catholic Encyclopedia “Now, it is rather daring to quote one of the most difficult and **obscure **passages of the Bible as a ‘classical text’ and then to base on it an argument for bold speculation. To be more specific, it is **impossible **to draw the **details **of the picture in which the **Apostle **compares God to the potter who hath ‘power over the clay, of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor’ (Rom., ix, 21), without falling into the **Calvinistic **blasphemy that God predestined some men to hell and sin just as positively as he pre-elected others to eternal life.” Its sad that put a part of the Bible down like that and didn’t find a way to explain it (as I have done in a previous thread), and than admit that it is Calvinistic.

So God, who created the ontological reality, is incapable of altering it? There goes omnipotence and any need for prayer. Sounds like Deist leanings to me.

 

[Tom_Baum]

That your view of God and create leads to fatalism.

My answer to that was:

"It may lead some to “fatalism”.

It may lead others to believing in a God Who Is better than most think possible and to hope for something that many feel is beyond hope."

Fatalism:

1. the acceptance of all things and events as inevitable; submission to fate:
2. Philosophy. the doctrine that all events are subject to fate or inevitable predetermination.

My “view” of GOD and my “view” of free will, which is part of creation, is that God “knows” absolutely everything about everything and even though God “knows” what we will do before we do it, we nevertheless have free will in doing what we do.

In other words, we are not puppets on God’s strings.

It is NOT my “view of God and create (creation)” but what you think is my view of God and creation that you believe leads to fatalism.

I have told you what my view of God and creation is concerning Omniscience and free will and you can disagree with it or you can think it to be impossible.

My view is quite simple and I would say that it is, quite simply, beyond logic.

Logic has its limitations.