Thought process of non Christians who use the New Testament

[Kaninchen]

What makes you assume that the unification of the human race necessarily means we all have to convert to s particular version of the truth??

A couple of millennia of experience, as I said.

 

[Servant19]

A couple of millennia of experience, as I said.

And now we have learnt from our mistakes.

We were trying to unite mankind when the time wasn’t right.

God wouldn’t want to unite the world when the US and Australia were unknown lands to Jews and Christians and Muslims. They tried but God didn’t reveal it, so it was a man made attempt. All the problems we have in the world today are because of man made attempts to what they think was Divine Will.

Two thousand years of experience at man made unifications.
Complete failure…

Wouldn’t you agree?

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[Servant19]

Ah, I get it now, only discussion of Baha’i thought constitutes discussion of religion. All is revealed.

On the other hand, people other than Baha’i may well get the impression that discussions with Baha’i involve talking about ‘invented’ versions of their own religions. So, ‘Islam’ becomes what it is that Baha’is want it to be, ‘Christianity’ what Baha’is want it to be and ‘Judaism’ what Baha’is want it to be - and would be to us if we only understood the Baha’i message.

Now, it would seem, attempting to understand them on their own terms is not talking about religion.

Except dear sister, can you point out what aspects of the Baha’i version of any religion is unscriptural?

The Baha’i Faith presents a Scripturally sound interpretation of these religions.

Could you point out anything unscriptural that the Baha’i Faith asserts about Judaism for example?

.

 

[Kaninchen]

And now we have learnt from our mistakes.

We were trying to unite mankind when the time wasn’t right.

God wouldn’t want to unite the world when the US and Australia were unknown lands to Jews and Christians and Muslims. They tried but God didn’t reveal it, so it was a man made attempt. All the problems we have in the world today are because of man made attempts to what they think was Divine Will.

Two thousand years of experience at man made unifications.
Complete failure…

Wouldn’t you agree?.

So, the Baha’i message is: “OK, we know this has been a bit of a nightmare the first couple of times, but we’ve got it right now, trust us.”

I’ll pass on that, Servant19, dystopia beckons.

 

[Kaninchen]

Except dear sister, can you point out what aspects of the Baha’i version of any religion is unscriptural?

All of it, the whole business - think back to the house of cards.

 

[TonyBS]

Ah, I get it now, only discussion of Baha’i thought constitutes discussion of religion. All is revealed.

On the other hand, people other than Baha’i may well get the impression that discussions with Baha’i involve talking about ‘invented’ versions of their own religions. So, ‘Islam’ becomes what it is that Baha’is want it to be, ‘Christianity’ what Baha’is want it to be and ‘Judaism’ what Baha’is want it to be - and would be to us if we only understood the Baha’i message.

Now, it would seem, attempting to understand them on their own terms is not talking about religion.

Talking to religions on 'Their own Terms" has got Mankind to where it now is and where it is heading

Now I would ask, if the term the Baha’i use to reconcile the differences is Unity under One God. Is this against you Scripture or is it worthy of further exploration?

Regards Tony

 

[Kaninchen]

Talking to religions on 'Their own Terms" has got Mankind to where it now is and where it is heading

I might suggest that when talking about other religions ‘having the slightest idea what one is talking about’ could be quite useful. It might avoid making some conceptual errors such as:

Now I would ask, if the term the Baha’i use to reconcile the differences is Unity under One God. Is this against you Scripture or is it worthy of further exploration?

 

[TonyBS]

All of it, the whole business - think back to the house of cards.

Man built the house of Cards, not God. Gods Foundation is Firm and can again be Built Upon as the Old Testament promised it would be.

Many proofs can be given from the Old Testament…if one wishes to look?

Isaiah 40:1-5

1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.

2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the Lord’s hand double for all her sins.

3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

5 And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it. King James Version (KJV)

Isaiah 27:12-13

12 In that day from the river Euphrates[a] to the Brook of Egypt the Lord will thresh out the grain, and you will be gleaned one by one, O people of Israel. 13 And in that day a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were lost in the land of Assyria and those who were driven out to the land of Egypt will come and worship the Lord on the holy mountain at Jerusalem. English Standard Version (ESV)

Mount Carmel is Calling Humanity

Regards Tony

 

[Kaninchen]

Man built the house of Cards, not God. Gods Foundation is Firm and can again be Built Upon as the Old Testament promised it would be.

I expect you could prove any religion by using selective textual interpretations from virtually any book you’d like to mention, probably including the Larousse Gastronomique.

It’s a process that tends to lack intellectual coherence, though.

 

[TonyBS]

I expect you could prove any religion by using selective textual interpretations from virtually any book you’d like to mention, probably including the Larousse Gastronomique.

It’s a process that tends to lack intellectual coherence, though.

Ok

I have had much the same conversations with my wife, thus I know if I do not bow out I loose lots and that before I bowed out, I had already lost the ability to have any further discussion anyway

Men, very slow learners

Regards Tony

 

[Kaninchen]

Ok

I have had much the same conversations with my wife, thus I know if I do not bow out I loose lots and that before I bowed out, I had already lost the ability to have any further discussion anyway

Men, very slow learners

Regards Tony

You should check out the sites where (particularly Protestant evangelical) Christians proclaim there to be several hundred ‘Proof Text’ predictions of Jesus in the Tanakh (Old Testament). Most are what I describe here as “Isaiah XX:YY ‘A child shall stub his toe’ Matthew WW:ZZ ‘And Jesus stubbed his toe’.”

 

[TonyBS]

You should check out the sites where (particularly Protestant evangelical) Christians proclaim there to be several hundred ‘Proof Text’ predictions of Jesus in the Tanakh (Old Testament). Most are what I describe here as “Isaiah XX:YY ‘A child shall stub his toe’ Matthew WW:ZZ ‘And Jesus stubbed his toe’.”

This is where I would agree with you, there is not a Lot in the Old Testament about Jesus Christ that Jesus Christ did outwardly fulfill. A lot of that prophesy can not rightly be attributed to Jesus Christ.

Regards Tony

 

[openmind77]

Jesus was the Messiah.
Jesus = Messiah
Baha’u’llah = Return of Jesus

Therefore Baha’u’llah is the RETURN of the Messiah, not THE Messiah (Jesus was THE Messiah)

But please remember openmind, these phrases, what do they mean? They are titles representative of a specific Mission assigned to a Manifestation of God. All Manifestations of God should be assumed to be the same Person, but throughout history they have occupied different Human bodies and were assigned different Missions and were therefore given different titles, such as Messiah, Son, Seal, Glory etc etc

.

So does that mean Islam is wrong when they expect the Mahdi and Jesus to Return separately as two different persons - first the Mahdi and then Jesus to follow (and both of them will be present on earth at the same time)?

In fact this Islamic prophesy does not seem to be fulfilled by Bab/Bahaullah, if you say Bahuallah was the Father.

 

[TonyBS]

So does that mean Islam is wrong when they expect the Mahdi and Jesus to Return separately as two different persons - first the Mahdi and then Jesus to follow (and both of them will be present on earth at the same time)?

In fact this Islamic prophesy does not seem to be fulfilled by Bab/Bahaullah, if you say Bahuallah was the Father.

The Bab and Baha’u’llah were the Twin Manifestations in sequence as mentioned above and yes they both Lived on the Earth at the same time. We know they shared writings, but it is thought they did not meet. Some records say they may.

Both gave witness to each others Station. The Return of the “Son” was in the “Station” of the “Father”.

Regards Tony

 

[openmind77]

The Bab and Baha’u’llah were the Twin Manifestations in sequence as mentioned above and yes they both Lived on the Earth at the same time. We know they shared writings, but it is thought they did not meet. Some records say they may.

Both gave witness to each others Station. The Return of the “Son” was in the “Station” of the “Father”.

Regards Tony

This statement totally makes no sense at all:

The Return of the “Son” was in the “Station” of the “Father”.

You seem to be changing meaning and words to make what actually occurred fit prophesy.

In any case, the way the Bible describes the Second Coming or the way Islam describes the Return of the Mahdi and Jesus, does not at all fit with the Imprisonment and execution of either the Bab or Bahuallah.

Bahaullah may have been a holy person, but his followers seem to be living in a dream world.

 

[TonyBS]

This statement totally makes no sense at all:

You seem to be changing meaning and words to make what actually occurred fit prophesy.

In any case, the way the Bible describes the Second Coming or the way Islam describes the Return of the Mahdi and Jesus, does not at all fit with the Imprisonment and execution of either the Bab or Bahuallah.

Bahaullah may have been a holy person, but his followers seem to be living in a dream world.

Please supply the passages you feel are not fulfilled, we may be able to clarify more about this for you.

This was fulfilled 100% - Consider all Baha’ullah’s Travels were a result of Banishment’s and prison sentences given by the Authorities that had rejected the Bab and Baha’ullah’s Claims, Thus Gods Will was done as per Biblical Prophesy.

Micah 7:12 “In that day also he shall come even to you from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain”.

Link to Map - bahai-library.com/map_travels_bahaullah

Regards Tony

 

[openmind77]

Please supply the passages you feel are not fulfilled, we may be able to clarify more about this for you.

This was fulfilled 100% - Consider all Baha’ullah’s Travels were a result of Banishment’s and prison sentences given by the Authorities that had rejected the Bab and Baha’ullah’s Claims, Thus Gods Will was done as per Biblical Prophesy.

Micah 7:12 “In that day also he shall come even to you from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain”.

Link to Map - bahai-library.com/map_travels_bahaullah

Regards Tony

Bahaullah can not be both Jesus (the Son) and the Father - these are two different persons.

 

[TonyBS]

Bahaullah can not be both Jesus (the Son) and the Father - these are two different persons.

They are born of the same Holy Spirit of God. All the Messengers are Born of this same Holy Spirit in each age they gave their message.

A different Flesh and Bone Body, the same Holy Spirit given by God. they are not of this world.

God - Holy Spirit - Messengers/Prophets

You will note according to scripture there was a time each of them became aware of their Station and the Message they had to give. Too big a topic to cover here.

It is explained here if you have the time to read - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-22.html

 "The Bearers of the Trust of God are made manifest unto the peoples of the earth as the Exponents of a new Cause and the Revealers of a new Message. Inasmuch as these Birds of the celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they, therefore, are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness.

These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the same attributes, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath revealed: “No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers.” For they, one and all, summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the unity of God, and herald unto them the Kawthar of an infinite grace and bounty…"

Regards Tony

 

[openmind77]

They are born of the same Holy Spirit of God. All the Messengers are Born of this same Holy Spirit in each age they gave their message.

A different Flesh and Bone Body, the same Holy Spirit given by God. they are not of this world.

God - Holy Spirit - Messengers/Prophets

You will note according to scripture there was a time each of them became aware of their Station and the Message they had to give. Too big a topic to cover here.

It is explained here if you have the time to read - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-22.html

 "The Bearers of the Trust of God are made manifest unto the peoples of the earth as the Exponents of a new Cause and the Revealers of a new Message. Inasmuch as these Birds of the celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they, therefore, are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness.

These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the same attributes, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath revealed: “No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers.” For they, one and all, summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the unity of God, and herald unto them the Kawthar of an infinite grace and bounty…"

Regards Tony

I am not asking about all the Messengers. I am talking about Bahaullah - he can not be both Jesus and the Father. And the Father is definitely not born of the Holy Spirit - that is one of the strangest things I have ever heard. I don’t think you Bahai believe or understand anything about the Trinity.

 

[TonyBS]

I am not asking about all the Messengers. I am talking about Bahaullah - he can not be both Jesus and the Father. And the Father is definitely not born of the Holy Spirit - that is one of the strangest things I have ever heard. I don’t think you Bahai believe or understand anything about the Trinity.

You did not choose to read obviously…so it will not become apparent as to what we are saying.

Regards Tony