Thoughts on Charasmatic Renewal

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I am also skeptical of those being “drunk in the Spirit”, “laughing in the Spirit”, being “slain in the Spirit”…etc…etc. none of which are prescribed in Scripture, and at best, are a psychological manifestation of a learned behavior, a behavior being taught by the CCR.
Drunk in the Spirit and Laughing in the Spirit are NOT part of the CCR. Slain in the Spirit is more correctly referred to as Resting in the Spirit. True Resting in the Spirit is very much like Infused Contemplation. There is a suspension of the faculties, which is why people fall. Unlike Infused Contemplation, the experience is brief, the experience lasts only a few minutes, Contemplation can last hours.

Please tell me where in Scripture are prescribed: Bi-location, Levitation, Ecstasy, Transverberation, Odor of Sanctity/Mystical Perfume, Mystical Marriage, Infused Contemplation, Reading of Hearts/Souls, etc? Last I knew, the RCC WAS NOT a Sola Scriptura church. Not all Charisms are listed in Scripture, neither are all Mystical Gifts.

Your last comment regarding “a psychological manifestation of a learned behavior” is your opinion, and not fact. The Church has not stated such, and neither can you.
 
Click here for ecclesial documents, catechism of the catholic church references, a link to the charismata as published in the Catholic Encyclopedia of 1908, and dozens of other professional articles written by Catholics and Catholic Priests and Bishops. There’s also links to the ICCRS, CCRE, CCRI, the Apostolic Renewal Ministry, the catholic charismatic center, a Hungarian Catholic ArchDiocese site on the Charismatic movement, the InUnity catholic charismatic site, the link to the Institute for Ecumenical and Cultural Research (a Catholic Entity established under the Holy See), and Fr Raniero Canalmessa’s papal website:

read-out.net/avila/ccr.html (ecclesial document links)
 
I have found that very few of those who consistently criticize the charismatic movement have actually bothered to investigate. A few appear to think that they know more than the Bishops (or even the Pope) on the matter. :confused:
I agree, we should have the respect of another spiritual or view within the Catholic Church as we would want them to respect prayer style within the Church. I would find it insulting if someone made fun of me for praying on my knees as I recite the Rosay and then repudiate that my prayers were answered. To make fun of another Catholic for devotion, spiritual display, or discipline as being say mendicant or chaste in many ways is quite sad. It’s like a Franciscan making fun of a Dominican or vice versa saying one is a fake order and the other is real. It’s just childish to see here on Catholic Answers.
 
“As Catholics, we have a Faith that is nearly 2,000 years old. We call ourselves “Catholic” because our Faith is universal (that’s what “catholic” means) – for all people, in all places, at all times. Yet this “Catholic Charismatic” movement is scarcely 50 years old! *I have a vacuum cleaner that’s older than “Charismatic Catholicism!””

Really? Really, your vacuum. That is so insulting to use this metaphor on this site. St Paul of the Cross spoke in tongues in the 18th century. St Anthony of Padua spoke in tongues, and that’s in the 13th century. St Dominic founder of the Dominican order spoke in tongues int the 12th Century. Then we have the 70-72 disciples who mostly experienced tongues during the first century after Christ’s crucifixion. And of course we have the first two centuries of the church of Corinth. But I guess you seem to know so much more than the discernment of the Holy See!*
 
There are two types of “tongues” mentioned in the Bible. The first, described in Acts, are “known tongues.” This is where the Apostles proclaimed the Gospel in their own language, but many in the diverse crowd heard it in their own language. The only reason that people figured out that a miracle was taking place was because they saw that these diverse people all seemed to understand what was being said. But not everyone was able to understand.

It is not uncommon that miracles accompany new revelation but not continue. This sign “undid” what happened at Babel.

Then there are “unknown tongues” which is described in the First Epistle to the Corinthians. This was a liturgical abuse, and Paul chastised them for it. There is not one verse in Scripture that is favorable to speaking in unknown tongues.

At any rate, neither known nor unknown tongues were practiced by any Christian community since the very early days. The Church Fathers tell us that the practice ceased:

No Christian practiced tongues until Agnes Ozman claimed to do so on Jan 1, 1901.

Ozman was the student of Charles Fox Parham, a Holiness minister. He set up Bethel Bible College in Topeka KS and came up with the novel idea that water Baptism and “spirit Baptism” are not bound together, but are separate actions. He asked his students to figure out what was the “sign” of Spirit Baptism, and they came up with the idea that speaking in (unknown) tongues was this sign. The school closed in 1902.

In 1905, Parham established another college in Houston, TX, and this school became the center of the Pentecostal “movement” (such as it was). In 1907, Parham’s ministry was discredited owing to sex scandals and his espousal of British Israelism. He lived out the rest of his life as head of a rather small group of Apostolic Faith churches headquartered in Baxter Springs, KS.

In 1906, in Los Angeles, William Joseph Seymour (1870-1922) held a revival at 312 Azusa Street, where the worldwide Pentecostal movement was launched. Seymour, an African-American Holiness preacher, was trained by Parham at his school in Houston. As in Topeka, the activity of this revival sparked considerable attention, but was short lived. By 1913, the Pentecostal movement was widely scattered, incohesive, and on the brink of extinction.

The Assemblies of God churches (the “home” of Charismatic Christianity) were established by a committee. A man named Eudorus N. Bell published a periodical from Malverm, Arkansas called the Word and Witness. Bell and four other men (Howard Goss, Daniel Opperman, Archibald Collins, and Mack Pinson) had become concerned with the future of the Pentecostal movement, and they decided to organize a general-invitation convention in Hot Springs, AK in April 1914. This convention attracted about 300 persons (about 120 of whom were delegates of various scattered Pentecostal movements). The Assemblies of God grew out of the resolutions of this convention, and was first headquartered in Findlay, OH, but moved to Springfield, Missouri in 1915, where it is still housed today.

In 1960, an Episcopal pastor, Dennis Bennett of Saint Mark’s Episcopal Church in Van Nuys, California started a charismatic movement within his parish, and for the first time, Pentecostalism transcended its traditional denominational definitions and became a form of spirituality integrated into an otherwise “mainline” Christian framework. From there, it infiltrated other faiths, including Catholicism (by way of Notre Dame University - surprise!).

As Catholics, we have a Faith that is nearly 2,000 years old. We call ourselves “Catholic” because our Faith is universal (that’s what “catholic” means) – for all people, in all places, at all times. Yet this “Catholic Charismatic” movement is scarcely 50 years old! I have a vacuum cleaner that’s older than “Charismatic Catholicism!”

Occasionally, great Doctors of the Church reveal to us deeper insight into Catholic spirituality. But the whole Charismatic movement did not begin with any Catholic Doctor or Saint – it started with the students of a disenfranchised Holiness preacher with a lot of wacky ideas and who had a hard time keeping his pants buttoned, and who could not even muster credibility within the movement that he started. Not surprisingly, the movement found its way into Catholicism by way of the Episcopal Church, the very same church that was the first mainline Christian denomination to endorse birth control.

So, to me, the Charismatic movement has three fatal flaws:
  • Its origins are not Biblical (not one passage of Scripture encourages or promotes this form of worship)
  • It is not historical (no Catholic in almost 2,000 years had ever practiced it)
  • Its origins are not Catholic (it has never been promoted by any Pope or Saint, nor by the Church Magisterium).
Charismatic spirituality is a very recent invention of fringe protestants. It has no Biblical, historical, or theological precedence or merit. I do not believe this form of spirituality has ANY legitimate place in Catholic worship.
I think you really have a very narrow shallow grasp of our faith. To suggest it’s not biblical is heresy. To say it’s never been condoned by a saint: What in the words “charismatic” or in the actual display of “charisma”. Just because a saint or the church did not use the word Charismatic when speaking of Charisma does not mean it was not manifested or present. St Anthony of Padua, St Paul of the Cross, St Dominic, and of course the disciples and apostles all spoke of the gifts of the holy spirit and experienced them. Yet you seem to feel that they don’t count?
 
I really like Ralph Martin and that one guy on “Crossing the Goal”, both involved w/the CCR, but I just can’t give myself over to something like this. What I’ve seen and heard in many of the manifestations associated w/this movement are eerily similar to an acid trip, and I mean a bad one! :eek:
 
I really like Ralph Martin and that one guy on “Crossing the Goal”, both involved w/the CCR, but I just can’t give myself over to something like this. What I’ve seen and heard in many of the manifestations associated w/this movement are eerily similar to an acid trip, and I mean a bad one! :eek:
You can overcome this fear/doubt/hesitation by simply attending a Catholic Charismatic Renewal event as an observer. You will see such shocking and amazing things as:
  1. Adoration of God.
  2. Praise of God.
  3. Thanksgiving to God.
  4. Acts of repentance and propitiation for sins.
  5. Prayers of petition.
Oddly enough, all of these things are also contained in Francis Cardinal Arinze’s book Celebrating the Holy Eucharist which, I note, is not a charismatic publication.
 
Since it was me that sort of started this mess with my post about my experience last Sunday, I thought I would chime in. My belief is that the Catholic Church is a big tent and there is room for many manners of worship as long as they are rooted in the faith and approved by the Magesterium. The Church has stated that the Charismatic Renewal is a legitimate approach, thus I am on board with it. Having said that, it is not something I am excited about being involved with, but that does not make it wrong. From what I have seen, I prefer a solemn and reverent OF Mass to either the DL or the EF of the Mass, but that obviously does not make either of them wrong.

My concern in my post was the lack of respect that I came across and the turning of the Mass from a community celebration and sacrifice into a “look at me” situation. The singing by oneself or the recitation of hallelujahs during the consecration, the speaking in tongues during a non-charismatic Mass, the turning of communal singing and praise into a solo on American Idol, etc. are the issues I am bothered by.

Attacking the CCR as something that is wrong is off base to me, unless what I experienced is the norm. If going to a charismatic Mass is anything like what I experienced, then I would start to have a concern with it. In fact, I would have a major concern. However, I am willing to recognize that oftentimes things which are approved in the Church do not get implemented in the manner in which they are supposed to, and take on characteristics that are not approved and appropriate. I suspect that this situation would fall under that idea, but I have no way of knowing to be sure.

So, with that in mind these are the types of questions I have based upon our experiences last Sunday: 1) If I were to walk into a charismatic Mass, would there be quiet reverence during the consecration, or would there be speaking in tongues, singing, or hallelujahs? 2) During the entrance hymn, would it be community singing or would it be people trying to turn the hymn into an opportunity to become the next gospel music sensation? 3) What about during the Sanctus, the Agnus Dei, etc.? Would people sing it as written or change it as they see fit? Would someone start randomly speaking in tongues afterwards or throwing out "hallelujahs: or “praise Jesus” during an otherwise quiet time? 4) would I have to listen to people behind me saying the words of consecration along with the priest, or would it be quiet? 5) Would I have people singing the responses even though the priest is speaking them and the rest of the parish is not singing? 6) Would I have someone sitting down next to me prior to Mass when I am kneeling down in obvious prayer exclaiming loudly “how ya doin’ today brother?” or would people come in and pray quietly before Mass? 7) Would people come in prior to Mass and start singing to themselves or would they come in and pray quietly?

Those are some of the things I experienced, and why I have begun to question the implementation of the Charismatic Renewal.

Peace,
 
I suppose much of my fear and skepticism are rooted in my experience in what I would call the “Counterfeit Revival.” Much of the practices that originated at Azusa Street are what we find in Toronto, Pensacola, Lakeland, the “Kansas City Prophets”…I want no part in that madness!
 
You can overcome this fear/doubt/hesitation by simply attending a Catholic Charismatic Renewal event as an observer. You will see such shocking and amazing things as:
  1. Adoration of God.
  2. Praise of God.
  3. Thanksgiving to God.
  4. Acts of repentance and propitiation for sins.
  5. Prayers of petition.
Oddly enough, all of these things are also contained in Francis Cardinal Arinze’s book Celebrating the Holy Eucharist which, I note, is not a charismatic publication.
Fragile, don’t be dismissive of CCR, just sit quietly in the corner and open up your heart to the Holy Spirit. He will open your heart to the truth you seek… Whats an acid trip?
 
Ok, I don’t agree. The Pope and bishops have accepted many errors throughout the history of the Church. A full assent of our faith is not called for on the matter of the CCR, and I am not convinced it is anything other then emotionalism, showing all the classical signs of a psychologically induced phenomenon.

But what do I know. :rolleyes:
You’re right to suggest that a full assent of our faith is not called for on the matter of the CCR, and never will be. However, it would be very wrong to confuse things closely associated with the movement (such as the charisms - hence “charismatic” renewal - or the experience of the Holy Spirit, or extraordinary sensational experiences - being slain in the spirit, etc) with the actual movement itself. What the Church says on these matters really should be accepted. I would think twice before I disagreed with the last several Popes, even if they are not speaking infallibly.

I don’t see how things like speaking in languages you’ve never studied, healing the sick, and the other charisms are classical signs of a psychologically induced phenomenon… why, you could look at saints like St. Teresa of Avila or St. Catherine of Siena or Padre Pio and suggest that they’re experience of God was simply “psychologically induced phenomena”… as many do. St. Catherine’s experiences were no doubt hallucinations brought on by extensive fasting. St. Teresa no doubt had a psychological disorder. Perhaps Padre Pio had some psychological fixation with the sufferings of Christ that he maintained wounds in his hands for 50 years.

What a rather shallow secularism…
 
You’re right to suggest that a full assent of our faith is not called for on the matter of the CCR, and never will be. However, it would be very wrong to confuse things closely associated with the movement (such as the charisms - hence “charismatic” renewal - or the experience of the Holy Spirit, or extraordinary sensational experiences - being slain in the spirit, etc) with the actual movement itself. What the Church says on these matters really should be accepted. I would think twice before I disagreed with the last several Popes, even if they are not speaking infallibly.

I don’t see how things like speaking in languages you’ve never studied, healing the sick, and the other charisms are classical signs of a psychologically induced phenomenon… why, you could look at saints like St. Teresa of Avila or St. Catherine of Siena or Padre Pio and suggest that they’re experience of God was simply “psychologically induced phenomena”… as many do. St. Catherine’s experiences were no doubt hallucinations brought on by extensive fasting. St. Teresa no doubt had a psychological disorder. Perhaps Padre Pio had some psychological fixation with the sufferings of Christ that he maintained wounds in his hands for 50 years.

What a rather shallow secularism…
I note that not one poster who criticizes the Catholic charismatic renewal actually has any experience with it. They have no street cred - only opinions. If only they would take that energy and poke their head through the door at charismatic prayer meeting…
 
In my younger days I attended a Church of God… The beliefs were that first you were ‘Saved’ by asking forgiveness of your sins. Baptism was only for an outward appearance to others that you had accepted Christ. You had to seek for sanctification, or cleansing, then you went to the altar and prayed to be filled with the Holy Ghost. Many people were around you praying that you would be filled with the spirit, just as in the day of Pentecost, so they believed. If you did not speak in tongues then you were not filled with the Holy Spirit… They always referred to as the Holy Ghost, one in the same. Many people became distraught over time if they were unable to speak in tongues. They would be encouraged to just utter something to allow the Holy Ghost to enter and take control.

There would be times that someone would stand up in the middle of the service and begin speaking very loudly in tongues. Then someone else would stand up and give their interpretation of what was said. I never felt comfortable in these situations, sometimes it caused fear and confusion.

Others would speak in tongues and dance or run up an down the isles. Some would fall and roll around.

Years later after I joined the Catholic Church my wife and I attended about 3 Charismatic prayer meetings. It was almost identical to being in a Pentecostal church. One of those services the Priest gave Holy Communion, people were lined up speaking in tongues. I felt the same fear, uneasiness and confusion then as I felt when I was younger attending the Church of God. I do know that God is not the author of confusion but He is the author of Peace.

My belief is that their emotions take control and they act on something, thinking that God is directing them.

I do believe that the bible teaches that the gift of tongues is the least of all gifts and that it is for the edification of ones soul. If you do this do it in private to praise God.

It is all real confusing to me… I went into a church one time and the preacher came in with wooden boxes. I asked the person beside me what was in the boxes, he said Rattlesnakes, Yikes, I hit the Exit door, no snakes for me. I watched a commentary on TV where these people handled Rattle snakes and drank poison while dancing in the Spirit. To me this is a real distorted view, just total ignorance, taking verses out of context with everyone deciding on their on personal interpretation.

Thank God for the Catholic Church… I need the Magisterium to help me understand. I guess that’s why we have near 35,000 denominations.
 
In my younger days I attended a Church of God… The beliefs were that first you were ‘Saved’ by asking forgiveness of your sins. Baptism was only for an outward appearance to others that you had accepted Christ. You had to seek for sanctification, or cleansing, then you went to the altar and prayed to be filled with the Holy Ghost. Many people were around you praying that you would be filled with the spirit, just as in the day of Pentecost, so they believed. If you did not speak in tongues then you were not filled with the Holy Spirit… They always referred to as the Holy Ghost, one in the same. Many people became distraught over time if they were unable to speak in tongues. They would be encouraged to just utter something to allow the Holy Ghost to enter and take control.
I suspect many people have had similar experiences growing up Pentecostals.
There would be times that someone would stand up in the middle of the service and begin speaking very loudly in tongues. Then someone else would stand up and give their interpretation of what was said. I never felt comfortable in these situations, sometimes it caused fear and confusion.
While I can’t comment on the manner in which this was carried out and it is quite possible that abuses did occur, the simple act of speaking in tongues and another interpreting is recorded in 1 Corinthian 14 and Paul says that tongues spoken in the assembly should be interpreted. So this is actually being faithful to Pauline order.
Others would speak in tongues and dance or run up an down the isles. Some would fall and roll around.
Years later after I joined the Catholic Church my wife and I attended about 3 Charismatic prayer meetings. It was almost identical to being in a Pentecostal church. One of those services the Priest gave Holy Communion, people were lined up speaking in tongues. I felt the same fear, uneasiness and confusion then as I felt when I was younger attending the Church of God. I do know that God is not the author of confusion but He is the author of Peace.
God is the author of peace, and I hope you find much peace in your new church home.
My belief is that their emotions take control and they act on something, thinking that God is directing them.
You could be right; you could just as easily be wrong.
I do believe that the bible teaches that the gift of tongues is the least of all gifts and that it is for the edification of ones soul. If you do this do it in private to praise God.
On what authority do you tell someone to only do it in private? Scripture does not limit tongues to the edification of the soul. It gives specific guidelines on the proper use of the gift of tongues in public.
It is all real confusing to me… I went into a church one time and the preacher came in with wooden boxes. I asked the person beside me what was in the boxes, he said Rattlesnakes, Yikes, I hit the Exit door, no snakes for me. I watched a commentary on TV where these people handled Rattle snakes and drank poison while dancing in the Spirit. To me this is a real distorted view, just total ignorance, taking verses out of context with everyone deciding on their on personal interpretation.
Does the Charismatic Movement in the Catholic Church handle snakes? If not, I fail to see why you mention this.
Thank God for the Catholic Church… I need the Magisterium to help me understand. I guess that’s why we have near 35,000 denominations.
 
I note that not one poster who criticizes the Catholic charismatic renewal actually has any experience with it. They have no street cred - only opinions. If only they would take that energy and poke their head through the door at charismatic prayer meeting…
You are wrong. Not only have I been to a prayer meeting, I have also attended a charismatic healing Mass recently. My opinion was only confirmed by subjecting myself to these events. :rolleyes:.
 
All these opinions on the validity of the Charismatic movement are irrelevent. What you should be asking is why are they experiencing something and you aren’t? Not whether it is of God or the Devil! God is ALL powerful, in ALL things and of ALL things. Where is your faith that you believe that God doesn’t move in the same way today and He did yesterday. Do you really think that God has left the ENTIRE unfolding of His plan to man’s contemporary understanding? If you do, then you have relagated God, subject to man instead of man to God. God is the same yesterday, today, tomorrow. God reveals Himself WHERE EVER and HOW EVER He pleases to suit His purposes…He may have stopped Chasimatic expression in the 1st century AD for His own purposes, but now has re-ignited them NOW for His own purposes. If expressed Truth scares you, or embarrasses you, or challenges you, then you need to ask WHY?.. God IS in control of ALL things. He is in the Host. He is in the Mass. He is in the Faith of the people. He is “where two or three are gathered in His name” (quote; Jesus). So the question is: Are Charismatics gathering in Jesus’ name??? The answer is obvious: YES! Whether you AGREE with it of not is irrelevent. Take it up with the Master Planner! GOD!
 
I wish I had the time to get involved with the discussion here, but I would like to point you all to an excellent resource.

A young and newly ordained Franciscan T.O.R. priest by the name of Father Zygmunt Mazanowski the 4th grew up in the charismatic community “People of Praise”. Now that he is a TOR one of his primary ministries is helping young adults learn about the role of the Holy Spirit in their lives and creating opportunities for them to freely praise God before Jesus in the Eucharist.

He has many teachings on his website and some of them are where most Charismatics get their primary foundation on what the Charismatic Renewal is and is not so to help prevent abuses and encourage truth. Most of his teachings include many quotes of the popes and bishops over the years that talk about the Charismatic Renewal.

He also has many teachings on there about other things such as “19 ways to pray”, “The Catholic Understanding of Mary”, and St. Francis.

Website is www.FatherZyg.com
 
I tend to believe that there is an authentic expression of this, be it Protestant or Catholic, it’s just that there’s so much madness out there it makes it hard to discern…
 
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