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SamH
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For that you must pray louder than me.
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a_priori
Guest
I never suggested that. That argument is reductionist. The reasons for the failure of businesses and governments is much more complicated.
I agree with this.
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imbroglio
Guest
Keep reading those right wing rags and keeping get misinformation. Teachers are pulling students out a school and hauling them to the protests. Laughable statement. You seem to have a very low opinion of teachers. Bad experience?
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manualman
Guest
This is a great post that lacks only ONE aspect to make it complete (IMO, of course).
I too totally credit the turn of the century unions for creating the vast middle class that set America apart from the world at the time. Those early unions recognized that workers were simply being exploited by mega-rich robber barons who refused to share a reasonable portion of the profits resulting from their labors.
But I think the seed of doom was planted early on. The experience of being born in fire the way they were created a permanent culture of hatred in the unions for management and an attitude that the ‘owners’ of companies are mere sugar daddies to be squeezed back the same way said sugar daddies had previous squeezed the workers. Even worse, the boom days of the 1950’s and 60’s when America was the only major industrial country on earth NOT to have been bombed 3/4 of the way back to the stone age established a false sense of permanent supremacy in industry. Unions sought and GOT a nice, deserved fat slice of the enormous profits generated during the rebuilding decades that followed. Now the rest of the world is fresh, rebuilt, reinvested and ready for theirs.
If unions want to regain their standing, they need to change their focus from fixed entitlements and rights based negotiations and onto profit sharing and partnering arrangements. The days of “the hell with you, I will have THIS” must end and union workers need to flex with the vagaries of the economy just like owners have to.
China CAN be beaten. Their autocratic culture, huge shipping costs and persistant quality problems present large opportunities for US based manufacturers that produce small and medium volume, high precision/quality and rapid delivery time products. This opportunity will only become greater as oil prices increase again.
I see some signs that the UAW is starting to ‘get it’ and refocus their attention from fixed benefits to sharing in profits when they happen. I hope it continues and that unions recreate themselves from their current image of self interested at all cost thugs to the guarantors of an America in which ALL people can thrive.
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SamH
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You deny the video?
I’ve been married to a teacher for 17 years. I also have two sisters and a BIL that are teachers, all share the same low opinion of the NEA.
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a_priori
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SamH
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Don’t bother, some people are convinced their eyes lie to them. Besides, everyone knows Utube is right wing.
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a_priori
Guest
That’s funny. I have three NEA members in my own family and they hold the same view as your relatives for the most part. I live in a neighborhood brimming with college professors and NEA members. Interesting dynamics…
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ChadS
Guest
I think you have a lot of good points here, but another thing is that many corporations have to end their love affair with dirt cheap labor in third world countries. There has to be a way around the idea that it’s cheaper to ship clothes and electronics 5,000 miles than it is to manufacture it down the road or in the next state and ship it from there.
That’s a problem that has plagued American industry since Japan and Germany got back on their feet after WWII.
ChadS
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ChadS
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I’m sorry but that’s not how it works. If management is serious about these cuts they need to make their case to the workers and the public and not say “because we told you so.”
In 1952 during the USW and steel company wage negotiations the steel companies said if they gave the USW the raise they wanted they wouldn’t be able to pay their federal taxes. Once they USW had a look at the steel companies’ income and profit for the year they called their bluff. That particular line of reasoning lasted about 3 days.
And you still want me to take the management position at face value?
ChadS
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estesbob
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Ane we all know how well things turned out for the United states Steel industry…
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manualman
Guest
I agree, but nobody likes where that logic goes next. The US government has for decades artificially kept global oil prices dirt cheap by being the oceanic traffic cops at US taxpayer expense. Somehow the ACTUAL cost of oil reliance needs to be incorporated into the price paid for oil. If it takes a trillion dollar war every 10 years to keep it flowing, then so be it - pay for it out of the oil costs. Then transportation will cost what it REALLY costs and US companies could compete at home. Instead, our grandkids are paying to protect yesterday’s oil flow to keep transportation prices low for countries importing products to the USA…
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mary_bobo
Guest
Gee, why am I not laughing? I saw students in the mob in Wisconsin on television, several networks.
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SamH
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That’s going to leave a mark…
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j1akey
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Unfair trade laws and foreign steel makers dumping steel into the market for below market prices if you’re interested, the union did not bring down the steel industry. Unions in general have existed for a pretty long time and membership levels have been this low since the 30’s. Unions have played a pretty big role in getting workers fair treatment by employers. It’s a said day when trying to get fair wages and benefits is compared to greed and bringing down a whole industry.
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Orogeny
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Well, the benefits are going to be changed. You can oppose “management” all you want. The governor is going to make changes and the unions will no longer be able to collectively bargain their benefits. The state can’t afford to pay them at their current levels, so they will be cut.
But typical union position is to ignore the fiscal realities and rally against “management”. Oh well.
You don’t have to like it. That doesn’t change a thing.
And by the way, they did take it to the public and the public responded in November.
Peace
Tim
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estesbob
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Dumped at below “union market prices” and threrin lies the problem
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AnneTeresa
Guest
I live in Madison, I’m a state worker (university), in the field of education, and I am not a union member.
Here’s my take on this: the unions have gone far beyond protecting workers from unfair management, unfair wages, and unsafe working conditions. The rules in place here with regards to union workers are insanely ridiculous. I had an employee who was unable to adequately perform her job. She couldn’t be fired, yet she was able to be placed somewhere else. During the first six months she could come back to her job at any time she wanted and I was unable to fill that position with a new worker. My unit suffered because I couldn’t get that work done. We cannot replace workers who do next to nothing because of their union rights. Good workers are not able to be rewarded for their good work, they make the same money as the poor worker.
At the same time, there are some good workers who are underpaid and these new cuts will hurt them tremendously. These are the same union workers who can’t get a raise because it’s all dictated by what “class” their job is in.
The teacher’s union is tremendously strong here. Teachers are the biggest complainers ever about their pay, yet I know first-year teachers who make more money than I do and I am a professional in higher education with 25 years of experience. But I don’t have a union behind me (nor do I want one).
The teachers here DO get their kids involved in backing the teachers’ interests as you saw on the video. I saw it when my kids were in school. It is inappropriate. Teachers should be doing this protesting on their OWN time and not influencing the kids except to teach them about the process and to give them a balanced view.
Walker came in and from what I heard he did not even attempt to talk to the unions before he proposed this bill. A bad move politically on his part. Yet the budget does need to be balanced.
When the bill was on the floor for voting today, the democratic legislators all left the state so that the vote couldn’t be held. The governor sent out enforcement to try to bring them back so the vote could be held. It was eventually held and the bill passed.
For the second day today, Madison (and other Wisconsin) students are not in the classroom. They will probably be out tomorrow too.
Here’s my take on this: the unions have gone far beyond protecting workers from unfair management, unfair wages, and unsafe working conditions. The rules in place here with regards to union workers are insanely ridiculous. I had an employee who was unable to adequately perform her job. She couldn’t be fired, yet she was able to be placed somewhere else. During the first six months she could come back to her job at any time she wanted and I was unable to fill that position with a new worker. My unit suffered because I couldn’t get that work done. We cannot replace workers who do next to nothing because of their union rights. Good workers are not able to be rewarded for their good work, they make the same money as the poor worker.
At the same time, there are some good workers who are underpaid and these new cuts will hurt them tremendously. These are the same union workers who can’t get a raise because it’s all dictated by what “class” their job is in.
The teacher’s union is tremendously strong here. Teachers are the biggest complainers ever about their pay, yet I know first-year teachers who make more money than I do and I am a professional in higher education with 25 years of experience. But I don’t have a union behind me (nor do I want one).
The teachers here DO get their kids involved in backing the teachers’ interests as you saw on the video. I saw it when my kids were in school. It is inappropriate. Teachers should be doing this protesting on their OWN time and not influencing the kids except to teach them about the process and to give them a balanced view.
Walker came in and from what I heard he did not even attempt to talk to the unions before he proposed this bill. A bad move politically on his part. Yet the budget does need to be balanced.
When the bill was on the floor for voting today, the democratic legislators all left the state so that the vote couldn’t be held. The governor sent out enforcement to try to bring them back so the vote could be held. It was eventually held and the bill passed.
For the second day today, Madison (and other Wisconsin) students are not in the classroom. They will probably be out tomorrow too.
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gamewell45
Guest
It’ll be back to the days of the Rockefellers, Mellons, Vanderbilts, Fords and Morgans running big business and trampling over the workers. Sometimes you have to hit rock-bottom before you realize what you’ve lost and rebuild over time. Long term I think it will have a devastating impact on conservatives and big business in this country.
We Americans shouldn’t fret too much, If things get bad enough, the people will change them by whatever means available as history has demonstrated time and time again.
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Sabda
Guest
It’s really sad that these students are there and they have no clue why they are there. First off this isn’t about the students so they shouldn’t even be there. Second if they are going to be there then they should know why they are there.
Going to a protest without knowing what it is you are protesting against does nothing but make you look like an idiot. I feel sad for those kids where there.
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