Thousands protest Wisconsin anti-union bill

[gamewell45]

I live in Madison, I’m a state worker (university), in the field of education, and I am not a union member.

Here’s my take on this: the unions have gone far beyond protecting workers from unfair management, unfair wages, and unsafe working conditions. The rules in place here with regards to union workers are insanely ridiculous. I had an employee who was unable to adequately perform her job. She couldn’t be fired, yet she was able to be placed somewhere else. During the first six months she could come back to her job at any time she wanted and I was unable to fill that position with a new worker. My unit suffered because I couldn’t get that work done. We cannot replace workers who do next to nothing because of their union rights. Good workers are not able to be rewarded for their good work, they make the same money as the poor worker.

At the same time, there are some good workers who are underpaid and these new cuts will hurt them tremendously. These are the same union workers who can’t get a raise because it’s all dictated by what “class” their job is in.

The teacher’s union is tremendously strong here. Teachers are the biggest complainers ever about their pay, yet I know first-year teachers who make more money than I do and I am a professional in higher education with 25 years of experience. But I don’t have a union behind me (nor do I want one).

The teachers here DO get their kids involved in backing the teachers’ interests as you saw on the video. I saw it when my kids were in school. It is inappropriate. Teachers should be doing this protesting on their OWN time and not influencing the kids except to teach them about the process and to give them a balanced view.

Walker came in and from what I heard he did not even attempt to talk to the unions before he proposed this bill. A bad move politically on his part. Yet the budget does need to be balanced.

When the bill was on the floor for voting today, the democratic legislators all left the state so that the vote couldn’t be held. The governor sent out enforcement to try to bring them back so the vote could be held. It was eventually held and the bill passed.

For the second day today, Madison (and other Wisconsin) students are not in the classroom. They will probably be out tomorrow too.

What a lot of people fail to realize in here is that the school districts hired these so-called incompetent teachers, not the unions; because the members pay dues (except for the freeloaders in right-to-work states) the union has a legal obligation to represent them; failure to do such would subject the union to be sued and/or charges filed with the NLRB.

Most labor contracts have just cause discharge language for those teachers who, in the opinion of the school district, don’t fit the requirements to be a teacher and the school district has the burden of proof. Just like in a court of law.

If the school districts who hired these teachers did their jobs properly, there’d be very few issues with teachers; but of course its always easier to blame unions for all the worlds ill’s.

I don’t blame the civil service workers for demonstrating; they are in a fight for their careers; they have a Governor who has no clue about what the work they do and importance they make in the community other then they belong to unions and he’ll most likely score points if he can pull off this small feat.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I come from a long line of working class Democrats. I would simply like to see the pendulum of American economic/political life spend some time in the middle. Not hard to one side with child labor, ungodly hours and worker mistreatment or hard on the other side with insularity, misplaced priorites and expectations of getting more and giving less. If wanting the pendulum in the middle is a crime, I’m guilty.

I also come from a long line of working Democrats and was once a Democrat party officeholder myself. I couldn’t keep supporting the party once it decided to dedicate itself to abortion on demand. Now, I’m just one of those Democrats that got divorced by the party, so to speak.

But let’s talk about your pendulum a little. What are we really into here? Well, in the last few years we have seen the destruction of an enormous amount of wealth. With the bogus mortgages, inflated housing prices, speculation, worthless securities based on mortgages, and easy money, the big balloon finally popped. When it did, absolutely staggering amounts of wealth were destroyed.

And to add to it, Americans had over-leveraged, thanks to cheap money, bogus home equity and a general feeling that we could “have it all”. So we all got over-leveraged, which made the balloon pop even more disasterous.

Now, there are those who would argue that the last two years have scared businesses into not investing or hiring, but let’s set that aside for a moment. It isn’t essential to the point.

So, Americans are now looking at 9%+ unemployment, a reduced tax base (less income to tax, less capital gains to tax), and excessive debts to pay down, and to pay down rather painfully. It’s hard to do. Very hard. It takes a long time to rebuild destroyed wealth. And that effort reduces consumption and the production people rely on for jobs in a lot of sectors. Lots of people have lost jobs. Even more are underemployed. People aren’t getting raises in the face of inflation.

It’s terrible to adjust to all that. Americans have had to do it many times. It’s something that happens. It has always improved in the past and there’s no reason to think it won’t this time. And that’s despite China, OPEC and all that. They’ll have their problems too, and I think we’re right on the cusp of seeing them come on.

Regardless, we have all had to adjust. Now, some of these unions are saying, in effect, “we should not have to share in that adjusting”. Well, where’s the pendulum there?
We’re not really looking at teacher starvation or working two shifts per day in an uneated classroom. We’re not. The economic pendulum has swung against the American people. It will swing back eventually. I believe it will. But is there some holy writ somewhere that says public employees should not be expected to share in it when the economic pendulum swings against everybody else? And should we think they shouldn’t when the only alternative to their sharing in the downturn is to additionally tax those against whom the pendulum has already swung; the guy whose house is $30,000 under water and whose job is insecure, the gal who does a bit of moonlighting because she hasn’t had a raise in two years, but grocery prices keep going up?

Personally, I think public employees should ride the pendulum with the rest of us.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

What a lot of people fail to realize in here is that the school districts hired these so-called incompetent teachers, not the unions; because the members pay dues (except for the freeloaders in right-to-work states) the union has a legal obligation to represent them; failure to do such would subject the union to be sued and/or charges filed with the NLRB.

Thank you. I wonder if people are willfully ignorant of this point or they just can’t believe it to be true.

Unions MUST represent ANY worker who in their bargaining unit, regardless of who they are. That means that even the dead weight is entitled to representation. It’s up to the supervisor to be competent enough to sufficiently document problems so proper disciplinary action can be taken. The failure of supervisors to do their job is not the fault of unions.

 

[ChadS]

Well, the benefits are going to be changed. You can oppose “management” all you want. The governor is going to make changes and the unions will no longer be able to collectively bargain their benefits. The state can’t afford to pay them at their current levels, so they will be cut.

But typical union position is to ignore the fiscal realities and rally against “management”. Oh well.

You don’t have to like it. That doesn’t change a thing.

And by the way, they did take it to the public and the public responded in November.

Peace

Tim

It’s not about “opposing” management. It’s about workers getting fair representation. If Wisconsin’s budget is that bad then the workers will most likely have to have some give backs, but the extent that Governor is doing trying to strip most of their benefits away and then making them vote for representation every year seems very drastic and has only one intended consequence and that is to bust the union.

ChadS

 

[ChadS]

Thank you. I wonder if people are willfully ignorant of this point or they just can’t believe it to be true.

Unions MUST represent ANY worker who in their bargaining unit, regardless of who they are. That means that even the dead weight is entitled to representation. It’s up to the supervisor to be competent enough to sufficiently document problems so proper disciplinary action can be taken. The failure of supervisors to do their job is not the fault of unions.

What reassurances would anybody have that if it was made easier for these school districts to get rid of these millions of “poor teachers” everybody apparently has that good teachers wouldn’t be gotten rid of to make room for the principal’s niece or somebody’s drinking buddy’s son that just graduated.

Tenure is a system designed to protect teachers from random and arbitrary firings.

ChadS

 

[Orogeny]

It’s not about “opposing” management. It’s about workers getting fair representation. If Wisconsin’s budget is that bad then the workers will most likely have to have some give backs, but the extent that Governor is doing trying to strip most of their benefits away and then making them vote for representation every year seems very drastic and has only one intended consequence and that is to bust the union.

ChadS

Of course it is about opposing “management”. Why else would you accuse “management” of stripping them of most of their benefits? They still have them. They just have to pay a bit like the rest of us. Why the distortion other than to oppose “management”.

If the union had any sense, they would do as I suggested and voluntarily give those concessions. But they are not interested in that. They don’t want to share in the pain that everyone else is feeling. I read that they are willing to give some back, but not what the governor is asking. Why not? Because that is asking too much. Right. I think it is time the unions are busted.

Peace

Tim

 

[ChadS]

Of course it is about opposing “management”. Why else would you accuse “management” of stripping them of most of their benefits? They still have them. They just have to pay a bit like the rest of us. Why the distortion other than to oppose “management”.

If the union had any sense, they would do as I suggested and voluntarily give those concessions. But they are not interested in that. They don’t want to share in the pain that everyone else is feeling. I read that they are willing to give some back, but not what the governor is asking. Why not? Because that is asking too much. Right. I think it is time the unions are busted.

Peace

Tim

Why is giving up everything they’ve worked and fought for seen as the responsible thing to do? When the same thing happens to any other worker they feel themselves mistreated and ill abused. Only in this instance does the worker have some recourse and that seems to really irritate people. No, it’s not the union that needs busted … If anything we need more of that kind of thinking. In case you have noticed the American workforce is nowhere as organized as it was 40 years ago.

ChadS

 

[Cubsfan]

Why is giving up everything they’ve worked and fought for seen as the responsible thing to do? When the same thing happens to any other worker they feel themselves mistreated and ill abused. Only in this instance does the worker have some recourse and that seems to really irritate people. No, it’s not the union that needs busted … If anything we need more of that kind of thinking. In case you have noticed the American workforce is nowhere as organized as it was 40 years ago.

ChadS

If the Unions were so good for workers you could not stop people from organizing and joining. The only Unions that have been growing are these public sector unions that are sucking the very life out of our nation.

Citizens of the United States arise and throw off the oppression of the Unions!

 

[Cubsfan]

One more thing on public sector unions. I believe somewhere earlier in this string church teaching was invoked, this might be legit if we were talking about the need for fair wages, but, we are not. We are talking about pensions that are sucking the life out of our country. These obligations are so one sided in favor of the state employees that they threaten the future for my children and yours. The public sector unions stand is immoral.

The very fact that each and every citizen is allowed to vote for their local government allows them a voice in working conditions. The “collective bargaining” process at the state level has allowed for the pro-union elements the ability to reward their supporters at the expense of other citizens. This is not moral this is a travisty of the highest order.

I call on all citizens to stand united against the tyranny of the public sector unions!

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Why is giving up everything they’ve worked and fought for seen as the responsible thing to do? When the same thing happens to any other worker they feel themselves mistreated and ill abused. Only in this instance does the worker have some recourse and that seems to really irritate people. No, it’s not the union that needs busted … If anything we need more of that kind of thinking. In case you have noticed the American workforce is nowhere as organized as it was 40 years ago.

ChadS

That’s because we’ve gone from being a society to a bunch of individuals in an every man for himself jungle.

We’ve lost the sense that an injury to one is an injury to all.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

So, what led foreign automobile companies to set up automobile assembly plants in the United States?

 

[gamewell45]

Of course it is about opposing “management”. Why else would you accuse “management” of stripping them of most of their benefits? They still have them. They just have to pay a bit like the rest of us. Why the distortion other than to oppose “management”.

If the union had any sense, they would do as I suggested and voluntarily give those concessions. But they are not interested in that. They don’t want to share in the pain that everyone else is feeling. I read that they are willing to give some back, but not what the governor is asking. Why not? Because that is asking too much. Right. I think it is time the unions are busted.

Peace

Tim

Tim, If the union has a contract with the school district, then its a business contract; you can’t just tear it up and start over again. Much like when you purchase a car, you go to contract and once the deal is cut, its binding no matter what your feelings may be whether its fair or unfair. In this case it would be best for “management” to wait until the current contract expires and then bargain for a contract with the union with the changes they want. What the governor is doing is tantamount to jettisoning the current contract by changing the laws. Its only natural for people to be upset when you make a deal and then renege on it. It would be the same thing as if you took out a mortgage with your bank, and then the bank, citing financial difficulties decided to rip up the loan contract and demand more money from you then what was originally agreed upon.

I’m only speculating, but I think the unions most likely have no interest in cooperating since they probably feel that “management” is out to hurt their careers and that it isn’t going to be a two-way street. Honestly I don’t blame them and I hope the Goverenor reconsiders this legislation. It’ll hurt alot of good people.

Finally, while again its only speculation, I find it interesting that the Fire, State Police and local police unions were unaffected by this legislation. It was noted that they supported the Governor in his bid for election. While other unions, including the Corrections Officers who did not support him are included in the proposed legislation.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Just a note, I am an employee of the State of California with 21 years of state service, so I come to this from this perspective and understanding of labor/management relations on the state level.

Tim, If the union has a contract with the school district, then its a business contract; you can’t just tear it up and start over again. Much like when you purchase a car, you go to contract and once the deal is cut, its binding no matter what your feelings may be whether its fair or unfair. In this case it would be best for “management” to wait until the current contract expires and then bargain for a contract with the union with the changes they want. What the governor is doing is tantamount to jettisoning the current contract by changing the laws.

Interesting. Isn’t there something called the Contracts Clause in the United States Constitution. If there is a current contract in place, then this law would be a violation of the Contracts Clause…oh, wait, that only applies to CORPORATIONS, not public employees, who are, after all, regular everyday citizens who filled out a job application, endured the civil service processes and got hired, no it doesn’t apply to THEM.

Its only natural for people to be upset when you make a deal and then renege on it. It would be the same thing as if you took out a mortgage with your bank, and then the bank, citing financial difficulties decided to rip up the loan contract and demand more money from you then what was originally agreed upon.

Well, that’s because it’s happening to REAL people. To Republicans, civil servants are not people, they’re pawns in their political games. Just ask Arnold Schwarzenegger, the worst governor in the history of the Universe and the man I see as representative of everything the Republican party stands for.

I’m only speculating, but I think the unions most likely have no interest in cooperating since they probably feel that “management” is out to hurt their careers and that it isn’t going to be a two-way street.

The problem is where you have “management” who has no interest in good faith relations with his workforce there is no point in cooperating. Instead, war has been declared and it’s the fight of their lives.

In California, SEIU Local 1000 presented BILLIONS in potential savings in the California State Budget and was ignored. Instead, Schwarzenegger had to play hardball and appeared to act unethically, up to proposing a very suspicious budget increase of $100 million in the California Supreme Court’s budget mere days before an important decision that made any labor relations laws between the California and its employees pretty much void.

Honestly I don’t blame them and I hope the Goverenor reconsiders this legislation.

If he’s a Republican, there’s no chance of that happening.

It’ll hurt alot of good people.

Which is the whole point of the exercise. Punish THAT group of working people to mollify the anger and envy of THIS group of working people. Yet another distraction.

Finally, while again its only speculation, I find it interesting that the Fire, State Police and local police unions were unaffected by this legislation. It was noted that they supported the Governor in his bid for election. While other unions, including the Corrections Officers who did not support him are included in the proposed legislation.

That’s also a major factor. Schwarzenegger was supported by the California Highway Patrol Union and he treated them like kings. No other union supported him and was treated like the worst kind of trash. It was really demeaning the way he treated his workforce. It was a continuation of another Republican, Pete Wilson’s, mistreatment of state workers less than a decade before. The Prison Guards union and the CHP union supported him and they got awesome contracts…the rest. One in eight years.

 

[gamewell45]

If the Unions were so good for workers you could not stop people from organizing and joining. The only Unions that have been growing are these public sector unions that are sucking the very life out of our nation.

Citizens of the United States arise and throw off the oppression of the Unions!

I think you honestly have no idea how the organizing process works. Its very tough for workers to organize because the companies consistently threaten, intimidate and retaliate employees seeking unionization and often violate labor laws to stop unions from representing their employees.

Furthermore I think if you really knew how unions worked, you’d never say what you’ve said.

 

[psr13]

S

Schwarzenegger, an icon of Republican economic ideology and the worst governor in the history of the Universe (yes, he makes Pontius Pilate look good!), would have done this if the courts didn’t stop him.

Wow, such ignorance. Schwarzenegger ended up hated by most Republicans because he turned his back on them. He never would have done this because the liberals wouldn’t like it. He never would have wanted that.

 

[a_priori]

If one spends some time with the NEA members in my family and circle of friends (across the country) , one would be inclined to agree with Professor Nassim Taleb of NYU:

“Academia is to knowledge what prostitution is to love; close enough on the surface, but to the nonsucker, not exactly the same thing.”

 

[ChadS]

If the Unions were so good for workers you could not stop people from organizing and joining. The only Unions that have been growing are these public sector unions that are sucking the very life out of our nation.

Citizens of the United States arise and throw off the oppression of the Unions!

Employers have an arsenal of weapons availablet to them to keep workers from organizing. Many tactics they use are illegal from discrimination to harassment and threatening to fire the employee for stirring up trouble. None of this has to heavy-handed and “send in the goons” kind of stuff either. It could be more subtle with workers informing on each other to management, people getting demoted or reassigned as a warning not to press the union stuff anymore. Oftentimes employers have their workers over a barrel with little or no recourse in the wider economy for them to pack up and go to greener pastures. Management knows this and they can use the threat of closing the plant or scaling back the workforce to subdue any union talk.

Of course all this is illegal, but labor boards in both the state and federal sides have seen their budgets cut or stacked by pro-business people that decisions can take a long time to go through the process that even if a pro-union decision is handed down it’s a pointless victory. Sure the person that was wrongfully terminated might get two or three years of back pay, but many businesses would rather pay that than have to deal with a union.

As I said earlier the businesses don’t have to worry about bad publicity or anything like that because other workers are out there fighting the fight for them, saying that these union workers should have to work for less and pay for more of this because that’s what they have to do. All management has to do is sit back and say “we want to be fair, but times are tough and we’re asking people to make a few sacrifices.” All the while the people that could benefit from a union contract the most are the ones yelling about unions and how greedy they are.

ChadS

 

[iamrefreshed]

I remember my first day working in a union shop. I was told to ‘slow down’ my output or else.

 

[AnneTeresa]

Update from Madison, where I live and work in education (non-union):

The schools are now closed for a third day. Parents are having to scramble to figure out how they can get to work with their kids being off school.

The Democratic Senate has walked out, left the state, to stall the vote. Many University classes are also not being held. It is tense here.

 

[AnneTeresa]

What a lot of people fail to realize in here is that the school districts hired these so-called incompetent teachers, not the unions; because the members pay dues (except for the freeloaders in right-to-work states) the union has a legal obligation to represent them; failure to do such would subject the union to be sued and/or charges filed with the NLRB.

Most labor contracts have just cause discharge language for those teachers who, in the opinion of the school district, don’t fit the requirements to be a teacher and the school district has the burden of proof. Just like in a court of law.

If the school districts who hired these teachers did their jobs properly, there’d be very few issues with teachers; but of course its always easier to blame unions for all the worlds ill’s.

I don’t blame the civil service workers for demonstrating; they are in a fight for their careers; they have a Governor who has no clue about what the work they do and importance they make in the community other then they belong to unions and he’ll most likely score points if he can pull off this small feat.