Thousands protest Wisconsin anti-union bill

[iamrefreshed]

Why the disparity?

AVERAGE TEACHER BASE SALARY:
Public School: $49,630
Private School: $39,690

 

[Orogeny]

Why is giving up everything they’ve worked and fought for seen as the responsible thing to do?

That’s a bit dramatic. Their wages remain the same, they still have insurance and they still have pensions. They will have to pay something for them now, but they still have them. Most important, they still have jobs. No money, no jobs.

When the same thing happens to any other worker they feel themselves mistreated and ill abused. Only in this instance does the worker have some recourse and that seems to really irritate people. No, it’s not the union that needs busted … If anything we need more of that kind of thinking.

Right. We have no money, but we won’t give anything up because “management is only trying to bust our union”. We need more of that like we need more deficit spending.

In case you have noticed the American workforce is nowhere as organized as it was 40 years ago.

And that is a very good thing.

Peace

Tim

 

[AnneTeresa]

What a lot of people fail to realize in here is that the school districts hired these so-called incompetent teachers, not the unions; because the members pay dues (except for the freeloaders in right-to-work states) the union has a legal obligation to represent them; failure to do such would subject the union to be sued and/or charges filed with the NLRB.

Most labor contracts have just cause discharge language for those teachers who, in the opinion of the school district, don’t fit the requirements to be a teacher and the school district has the burden of proof. Just like in a court of law.

If the school districts who hired these teachers did their jobs properly, there’d be very few issues with teachers; but of course its always easier to blame unions for all the worlds ill’s.

I don’t blame the civil service workers for demonstrating; they are in a fight for their careers; they have a Governor who has no clue about what the work they do and importance they make in the community other then they belong to unions and he’ll most likely score points if he can pull off this small feat.

The schools who hire these teachers are just like any other employer–you hire someone you think will work out, it doesn’t always work out. With the Union being so strong, you then have a long drawn out battle of “proving” the worker is not doing the job. The result is that there are teachers who sit in a room all day doing NOTHING because they can’t be fired and they can’t do the job. Same for other union jobs. I KNOW, I’ve seen it happen and as a manager of union workers, my hands have been tied.

They are not fighting for their “careers.” They are fighting for what they believe are their “rights.” Their rights to put the state under financially. Every time the the contracts come up here in Madison, it is a ridiculous battle over every single little point. While the rest of us give up things to help balance the budget, those who have strong unions continue to fight to keep things the way they’ve always been. That DOESN’T WORK in this economy. Something has to give.

I am all for treating workers fairly and at the beginning, unions were good, helping give workers a voice. But it has gone too far. They are fighting for the “status quo” for their wages and benefits while the rest of the state suffers and has to give up the “status quo”. The budget needs to be balanced. How do you propose that be done?

 

[pnewton]

Why is giving up everything they’ve worked and fought for seen as the responsible thing to do?

Is engaging in a sick and closing the school the responsible course of action. God help these teachers if they are in need on the day that police or firefighters do the same thing.

A Christ-centered ethic of labor is a two-way street. Yes, workers are due a just wage and should be able to take actions to assure that this is done. However, the worker is also subject to the employer to give a just days work for that just wage. This sick in strike is not just.

 

[iamrefreshed]

And look at these poor, poor Michigan teachers protesting. Who can blame them? How can anyone expect to live on $129,000 a year?

michigancapitolconfidential.com/14584

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

And look at these poor, poor Michigan teachers protesting. Who can blame them? How can anyone expect to live on $129,000 a year?

An odd comment from a conservative. I was under the impression that conservatives thought that a person should be able to earn and keep all that he or she could. Would you prefer a government fatwa freezing salaries at, say $50,000, so that no one would have more than the next fellow?

 

[Orogeny]

Tim, If the union has a contract with the school district, then its a business contract; you can’t just tear it up and start over again. Much like when you purchase a car, you go to contract and once the deal is cut, its binding no matter what your feelings may be whether its fair or unfair. In this case it would be best for “management” to wait until the current contract expires and then bargain for a contract with the union with the changes they want.

Why wait? Why doesn’t the union just give the concessions in exchange for keeping their collective bargaining ability?

What the governor is doing is tantamount to jettisoning the current contract by changing the laws. Its only natural for people to be upset when you make a deal and then renege on it. It would be the same thing as if you took out a mortgage with your bank, and then the bank, citing financial difficulties decided to rip up the loan contract and demand more money from you then what was originally agreed upon.

What happens if you have no money to pay that mortgage?

I’m only speculating, but I think the unions most likely have no interest in cooperating since they probably feel that “management” is out to hurt their careers and that it isn’t going to be a two-way street.

Yeah, I expect that is true. Isn’t that the union postion towards management generally?

It’ll hurt alot of good people.

Really? From the Wall Street Journal:

It would also require government workers, who currently contribute little or nothing to their pensions, to contribute 5.8% of their pay to pensions, and pay at least 12.6% of health care premiums, up from an average of 6%.

Let those workers who are being hurt go into the private sector and see what they have to pay for those benefits. I pay 70% of the money that goes into my 401K and I pay just about half of the cost of my health care. Hurt? Does that hurt more than being layed off?

Finally, while again its only speculation, I find it interesting that the Fire, State Police and local police unions were unaffected by this legislation. It was noted that they supported the Governor in his bid for election. While other unions, including the Corrections Officers who did not support him are included in the proposed legislation.

And I find it interesting that the president has already called the bill an assault on unions and democratic senators fled the capital to avoid the vote. Not one single union supporter has pointed out that unions spent more than $400 million in 2008 to help elect President Barack Obama and other Democrats, with public-sector unions such as AFSCME among the biggest contributors. Funny how speculation is interesting only when it backs one’s position.

Peace

Tim

 

[iamrefreshed]

An odd comment from a conservative. I was under the impression that conservatives thought that a person should be able to earn and keep all that he or she could. Would you prefer a government fatwa freezing salaries at, say $50,000, so that no one would have more than the next fellow?

Yes, earn. Not collect due to union membership.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Yes, earn. Not collect due to union membership.

Union workers earn their money the same way anyone else does. Union carpenters, musicians, electrical workers, nurses, and the like do not collect money simply for being in the union. They make their money the old-fashioned way - they earn it.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Union workers earn their money the same way anyone else does. Union carpenters, musicians, electrical workers, nurses, and the like do not collect money simply for being in the union. They make their money the old-fashioned way - they earn it.

Then, just like their non-union counterparts, their boss should determine their wage based on market conditions. If they don’t agree they are free to leave.

 

[ChadS]

Let those workers who are being hurt go into the private sector and see what they have to pay for those benefits. I pay 70% of the money that goes into my 401K and I pay just about half of the cost of my health care. Hurt? Does that hurt more than being layed off?

That’s the exact kind of thinking management likes to hear from their workers and the exact same thing goes will all the talk abou paying the mortgatge or not eating.

You seem to have accepted the thinking that paying 50% of healthcare costs is simply the way things have to be. Management loves the idea that many of workers say okay that’s fine. If more workers looked at union wages and said I want that rather than pay them what I get this country could be a lot different. What if we pursued trade and economic policies that made those wages the norm instead of the exception?

ChadS

 

[iamrefreshed]

If more workers looked at union wages and said I want that rather than pay them what I get this country could be a lot different.

Yes, it would grind to a halt.

 

[Orogeny]

That’s the exact kind of thinking management likes to hear from their workers and the exact same thing goes will all the talk abou paying the mortgatge or not eating.

Yep, I’m just a management lackey.

You seem to have accepted the thinking that paying 50% of healthcare costs is simply the way things have to be. Management loves the idea that many of workers say okay that’s fine. If more workers looked at union wages and said I want that rather than pay them what I get this country could be a lot different.

True. Many more people would be out of work, but, hey, at least the union bosses would be richer. Just a question. Do you still have to pay union dues when you are unemployed?

What if we pursued trade and economic policies that made those wages the norm instead of the exception?

ChadS

My business would not be affected much by different trade policies. My clients are willing to pay X dollars for my services. If I charge more than that, they go elsewhere. Then I don’t have a job.

See, that is the real world, not the one seen through union blinders.

Peace

Tim

 

[ChadS]

Yes, it would grind to a halt.

So paying workers so they live paycheck to paycheck and can never quite get ahead is the best way?

I don’t think it has to be that way and it shouldn’t.

ChadS

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Then, just like their non-union counterparts, their boss should determine their wage based on market conditions. If they don’t agree they are free to leave.

That 19th century mentality of “take it or leave it 'cause I can get someone who’ll take lower wages regardless if it’s a living wage or not” is not a Catholic attitude. Sure, there are always some who need work so badly they don’t care if they’re abused or not, but it’s not an attitude that should be encouraged.

And, if the non-union people get restless about wages, the boss man can always go overseas, and stick it to them as well as to the unionists.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

My business would not be affected much by different trade policies. My clients are willing to pay X dollars for my services. If I charge more than that, they go elsewhere. Then I don’t have a job.

See, that is the real world, not the one seen through union blinders.

Your business, your clients, your services. That sounds like a personal services occupation like a management consultant or attorney, jobs that depend on your unique personal talents. Unionism doesn’t apply in a situation like yours.

 

[Orogeny]

Your business, your clients, your services. That sounds like a personal services occupation like a management consultant or attorney, jobs that depend on your unique personal talents. Unionism doesn’t apply in a situation like yours.

And your point is what?

I utilize contractors in my business that would have to be union if they weren’t here in Texas or another right-to-work state. Contractors like excavation companies, plumbers, electricians, etc. They all make good livings here without having to pay union dues. How can that possibly be?

Peace

Tim

 

[AnneTeresa]

Is engaging in a sick and closing the school the responsible course of action. God help these teachers if they are in need on the day that police or firefighters do the same thing.

A Christ-centered ethic of labor is a two-way street. Yes, workers are due a just wage and should be able to take actions to assure that this is done. However, the worker is also subject to the employer to give a just days work for that just wage. This sick in strike is not just.

 

[iamrefreshed]

That 19th century mentality of “take it or leave it 'cause I can get someone who’ll take lower wages regardless if it’s a living wage or not” is not a Catholic attitude. Sure, there are always some who need work so badly they don’t care if they’re abused or not, but it’s not an attitude that should be encouraged.

And, if the non-union people get restless about wages, the boss man can always go overseas, and stick it to them as well as to the unionists.

Typical union scare mongering. I’d like to see how they offshore teachers, firefighters, homebuilders etc. Try calling a plumber in India for your stopped up toilet.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

And your point is what?

I utilize contractors in my business that would have to be union if they weren’t here in Texas or another right-to-work state. Contractors like excavation companies, plumbers, electricians, etc. They all make good livings here without having to pay union dues. How can that possibly be

What is a good living? And, wouldn’t those wages be influenced by union wages elsewhere because bosses are afraid that workers might organize if they didn’t come close to union scale? And, wages aside, what do workers do if there are safety issues or work hour issues and the such? “If you’re afraid of risking your life because I don’t provide sufficient safety equipment, you can go somehwere else.” Sure.