Thousands protest Wisconsin anti-union bill

[Rich_Olszewski]

Typical union scare mongering. I’d like to see how they offshore teachers, firefighters, homebuilders etc. Try calling a plumber in India for your stopped up toilet.

I’m glad that off-shore problems are a figment of my imagination. Funny that when I call Dell for some problem with my PCs, the Texan who answers the phone sounds as though he was in Mysore, and it’s really odd that the woman at the credit card information line is another New York Calcuttan. Ask computer systems analysts how much work there is in America thanks to the non-existent offshore facilities replacing them.

 

[iamrefreshed]

I’m glad that off-shore problems are a figment of my imagination. Funny that when I call Dell for some problem with my PCs, the Texan who answers the phone sounds as though he was in Mysore, and it’s really odd that the woman at the credit card information line is another New York Calcuttan. Ask computer systems analysts how much work there is in America thanks to the non-existent offshore facilities replacing them.

Well it could have worked out your way. All these computer ‘experts’ could have unionized. Then you could have paid $4,000 for your $800 laptop.

BTW, I used to get the best meatloaf sandwich at the deli across from St. Stan’s. I wonder if it is still there?

 

[Orogeny]

What is a good living?

They are happy with it.

And, wouldn’t those wages be influenced by union wages elsewhere because bosses are afraid that workers might organize if they didn’t come close to union scale?

Nope. Many, if not most, of my contractors are owner/operator set ups or small businesses. They don’t have to worry that they will move somewhere else because of wages. And, based on my conversations, they all have the same opinion of unions as I do. Many have worked in union shops in other states and when those jobs died, they came to Texas where they can work, make a good living and not have to feed the union bosses dues money.

And, wages aside, what do workers do if there are safety issues or work hour issues and the such?

Ever have a visit from OSHA? I have. You don’t skimp on safety in my business. And if that isn’t sufficient for you, well, at least that is an agency that can be cut to save money.

“If you’re afraid of risking your life because I don’t provide sufficient safety equipment, you can go somehwere else.” Sure.

Yep, only unions care about workers.

Peace

Tim

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Well it could have worked out your way. All these computer ‘experts’ could have unionized.

Only “experts,” not experts, eh? The overseas computer people were real experts, better than folks here, so it was better to offshore their jobs IYO.

 

[pnewton]

You seem to have accepted the thinking that paying 50% of healthcare costs is simply the way things have to be.

It is not the way things have to be, but neither do they have to be where the employer provides all the health insurance, any more than an employer should have to provide, life insurance, auto insurance or home owner’s policy. There is no “have to”.

I do not think the Catholic Church has ever attempted to put the whole burden of health care on employers.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

An odd comment from a conservative. I was under the impression that conservatives thought that a person should be able to earn and keep all that he or she could. Would you prefer a government fatwa freezing salaries at, say $50,000, so that no one would have more than the next fellow?

Everyone except THOSE people who went to THAT employer for a job. It’s called a double standard.

 

[Seamus_L]

What’s happening in Wisconsin now look’s like it may next be coming to Michigan, Ohio, Tennessee, Nevada and Florida for starters, and while I’m generally pro-union, I have little or no sympathy for government employees who are very well paid at the taxpayer’s expense. And to throw a little sarcasm into the mix, the serious financhial debt that so many of our state governments are now in, may eventually dictate, that arrogant, well paid, predominantly left wing academics teaching our children may become a luxury we can no longer afford.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

That 19th century mentality of “take it or leave it 'cause I can get someone who’ll take lower wages regardless if it’s a living wage or not” is not a Catholic attitude.

AMEN!!!

It is a completely CALVINISTIC attitude!

It truly sickens me how so many Catholics believe in the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Unions are, and are intended to be, “adversarial” in their relationship with management. “Bargaining” is always adversarial to a degree.

So, if I want to have a business and hire people, I am in an “adversarial” position vis a vis my employees, no matter what my intentions are, and no matter how well we get along. it might be very mildly adversarial, or it might be seriously adversarial. But it’s still adversarial in its nature. If I’m dealing with a union, the workers are all banded together under some leader who supposedly speaks for them. That leader might or might not truly speak for them, but that’s the understaneding, and my relationship with those leaders is adversarial of its nature.

But if I want a business, I have to live with that, union or no union. If there’s no union, my employees’ ‘bargaining chip’ is working for me. I train them, lose money on them at first, teach them skills they can sell to others if they want to do that, and that’s part of the chance I take if I want to be in business. And the greater their skills, the more bargaining power they have relative to me. If I can’t live with that, I have a choice. I don’t have to start a business.

But in public employment, the “adversary” is necessarily the public. The public doesn’t choose to be in an adversarial relationship with workers. The relationship is the result (most of the time) in my being born in a particular place. Unlike a businessman, I don’t have the option of paying or not paying. I get imprisoned if i don’t. In that context, I think it’s different. Am I organized in the same sort of way management in a business is organized? Not at all, and I can’t be. Sometimes I am represented by people who hold my point of view, and sometimes I’m governed by people who are my “adversaries”; some of whom are beholding to public service unions. So, at times at least, there is no "adversary’ worthy of the name to the public service unions. I, and other like-minded citizens are powerless in the face of two “adversaries” in those circumstances. A good part of the time, MY representatives are actually on the other side, but I’m supposed to pay for the fact that, unlike a private businessman, I can’t bargain with anybody.

So, in my opinion, the usual “bargaining” talk people bring up when they talk about public service unions as if governmental units were Caterpillar or GM, doesn’t apply, particularly since Cat and GM can shut down or move offshore if they can’t live with the demands on the other side and can’t win the argument. Public service unions are a thing all their own, and the relationship between the workers and the public is different, since the public didn’t really volunteer for the adversarial role, is rarely a unified voice, and can’t opt out of “the deal” without going to prison.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Only “experts,” not experts, eh? The overseas computer people were real experts, better than folks here, so it was better to offshore their jobs IYO.

If they were experts they would still have the job. They could not have been replaced by $10 a day help overseas. It’s simple really.

 

[Sabda]

What’s happening in Wisconsin now look’s like it may next be coming to Michigan, Ohio, Tennessee, Nevada and Florida for starters, and while I’m generally pro-union, I have little or no sympathy for government employees who are very well paid at the taxpayer’s expense. And to throw a little sarcasm into the mix, the serious financhial debt that so many of our state governments are now in, may eventually dictate, that arrogant, well paid, predominantly left wing academics teaching our children may become a luxury we can no longer afford.

I honestly wonder just where these people think the money is coming from? The fact is there is NO MONEY!!! When you have no money that means you have to cut back on your spending. There is no choice in this matter. Tax payers have been and are continuing to lose their jobs and homes. We can’t keep borrowing from China forever. Eventually the piper is going to demand payment. What these teachers are doing is a slap in the face to all the tax payers out there. The tax payer has to cut back and pay more but heaven forbid if it’s demanded of the government worker who is paid for with tax payer dollars.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

If they were experts they would still have the job. They could not have been replaced by $10 a day help overseas. It’s simple really.

They aren’t being replaced by $10 a day help. They are being replaced by computer experts, just as expert they are, who earn a third or a half of what the Americans earn. As good as the Americans are, they can’t compete against people in countries where the standard of living is so much lower.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

I honestly wonder just where these people think the money is coming from? The fact is there is NO MONEY!!!

There is money. There is a LOT of money. The problem is, it’s in too few hands and those hands have no intention of loosening the money and prefer to hoard it in their greed.

 

[iamrefreshed]

They aren’t being replaced by $10 a day help. They are being replaced by computer experts, just as expert they are, who earn a third or a half of what the Americans earn. As good as the Americans are, they can’t compete against people in countries where the standard of living is so much lower.

Then you can pay $4,000 for your laptop so you can subsidize them.

I used to repair typewriters, you wanna send me a check because there are no more?

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Then you can pay $4,000 for your laptop so you can subsidize them.

Ship all our manufacturing and jobs overseas, eh? It’s already happening.

I used to repair typewriters, you wanna send me a check because there are no more?

For those who stil use typewriters - and there are more than you might think who still do - they’d be happy to send you a check to keep their machines working.

 

[Ridgerunner]

AMEN!!!

It is a completely CALVINISTIC attitude!

It truly sickens me how so many Catholics believe in the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor.

As expressed by Rich, sure. But is that what we’re really dealing with here? The Popes have also endorsed subsidiarity and the right of individual action for individual benefit. There has to be a balance among those things.

Put the shoe on the other foot. Do you really think the Church endorses the notion that one group of people who are already making a living wage should have the power to extract more through the power of the state from people who make less, just because they have the power to do it? Those teachers make more than do most of the people who are paying them, and a lot more power to prevail in their wishes than do taxpayers.

Personally, I have never been persuaded that teachers were ever oppressed in this country. The earliest land grant colleges were all teachers’ colleges and people went to them. Why? Because, notwithstanding that teachers in those days didn’t make much, they did better than most, all things considered, including employment stability when there was no tenure. So it was worth it for them to attend. And that was back when teachers “bargained” as individuals with school boards. But perhaps someone can persuade me otherwise.

So, is the teachers’ position in WI the more reasonable, or is the governor’s (and seemingly that of the majority of the legislature) position more reasonable? When you strip away the hard ideologies, it is not obvious that the former is the case. Certainly, it’s debateable.

 

[barb_finnegan]

This whole protest thing is ridiculous. It’s one reason why politicians * are held in such low estimation by us ordinary folks.

So-called ‘grown-ups’ are acting like spoiled brats. They are throwing a tantrum because they can’t get all their perks and privileges. *

Stand firm,Governor Walker! Don’t give in!**

 

[patrick127]

The unions that represent public employees spend union dues/money to promote the candidacy of politicians that will ultimately be the very people that will negotiate future contracts. “Management” becomes de facto members of these unions themselves because they owe their jobs to the unions. The politicians/management for years have gladly repaid union-backed campaign contributions with generous increases in salary and benefits for the members of these unions.

A government employee traditionally receives a smaller salary today for benefits down the road…a pension and healthcare for life. We as citizens are generally ok with the traditional set-up. The problem has become that these teachers, in addition, a large portion of government employees now receive above an average salary in addition to their future pensions/healthcare. When you consider that pensions are based of the salary that the retiree earned during his working life costs get compounded exponentially down the road and it becomes an unsustainable burden to the state.

The good work done by the unions on behalf of the membership is beginning to backfire. They have created a situation that is putting many states on the verge of bankruptcy. It is one thing when a private company faces these challenges. Ask GM, their main problem is that for every car they sell they have a built in cost of thousands of dollars in each car for past employees/retirees that makes them unable to compete in the marketplace against other companies that manage their cost better. If GM goes bankrupt, their retirees risk losing their pensions…that was until the Government bailout.

Government employees/retirees don’t face this because they can get the very people they helped elect to raise taxes on the general population.

There is a new management and they have to face the fact that we as a state and a nation cannot continue down this path. Something needs to change. I don’t see these teachers being faced with a reduction in salary; I see the elected leaders asking the teachers to help pay for the current and future benefits that they will receive. Doesn’t sound like a bad deal? We the people are taxed enough already and it appears that the gravy train is ending.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Ship all our manufacturing and jobs overseas, eh? It’s already happening.

Well, as was pointed out earlier about the steel industry, unions are their own worst enemies.

I hope these teachers in Wisconsin have heard about distance learning.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Those teachers make more than do most of the people who are paying them, and a lot more power to prevail in their wishes than do taxpayers.

What is the problem with making more money than the next person? Shall the government fix wages depending on your job?

And, what’s this about teachers prevailing more than taxpayers. Sorry to burst your bubble, but teachers are also taxpayers.