Three Barriers to the Latin Mass

[Cider]

Thanks for finding this video and starting a thread…it is ripe for discussion and I’m surprised there have been no comments about her third point that the TLM is a “political” statement and tied together with opposition to V2. She hardly explained that loaded declaration, although we could certainly speculate what she meant. Anyone??

Speaking only for myself, I’m not taking that bait. I’ve seen where it goes on CAF too often. IME the majority of Catholics don’t even know the EF still exists anyway. The posters here are not representative of the typical Catholic in the pews.

 

[crazzeto]

1. this point is a sweeping generalization based on her experience. My experience is contrary to this.
2. this is in a way fair, I know what she means. The operative is the last bit “seem to belong to another era”. Here for instance the criticism is of veiling, and other such traditional customs. My critique of her point is she seems to have made a false assumption which Pope Benedict XVI corrected. It isn’t the older generation clinging to the old tradition. It’s the young discovering it for the first time. It’s not that parents are forcing young girls to veil, indeed in TLM if anything especially if the parent is connected to the sexual revolution then it is the other way around. Far from being a barrier, “funny clothing” is part of the draw.
3. there is good progress this front. Many of us traditionalists especially the ones that skipped the Sspx affair have no problem with Vatican II or the fact that the OF exists at all. We simply prefer the traditional expression of the law of prayer, and find many points of high value in it.

 

[Tigg]

Speaking only for myself, I’m not taking that bait. I’ve seen where it goes on CAF too often. IME the majority of Catholics don’t even know the EF still exists anyway. The posters here are not representative of the typical Catholic in the pews.

I agree but still wish there could be some dialogue toward understanding. I think it’s comments like Ms. Rowland’s that continue to fuel a certain antagonism between the two camps of a fractured church.

 

[MorEphrem]

Well the first point, as I’ve seen a few have written, is a sweeping generalization. I have many friends who prefer the EF and very spiritual. And what is wrong with wanting good liturgical form? Quite frankly we’re limited beings attempting to worship an infinite God, we should strive for worship as good as possible.

The second point, I will arrogantly say, relates to poor upbringing. How is a suit “strange clothes?” I live in New York and I see people in suits everyday everywhere around the City, both young and old, and it is often expected for certain events that guys my age dress in suits as well. Modesty is a virtue not an outdated relic of a generation past.

The last point is the most ridiculous. Never should one conflate religious action and politics… You pray because it is appropriate, you do not pray to make a political statement as to which faction you belong. Anyone who does so does it out of either poor catechesis or misguided/insincere faith.

 

[Brendan_64]

So by dressing in funny clothes she means people that actually dress for Mass? In that case yes most TLMs have people in funny clothes like you would see at a funeral, wedding, nice dinner, meeting an important person, etc.

I don’t generally see many headscarves (or even many ankle length skirts) at dinners, weddings, or even funerals. I have no problem with individuals attending the EF Mass dressing like this, if that is what they personally choose to do, but to maintain that such styles of dress are the general social norm at dinners, weddings and funerals, is incorrect.

 

[malphono]

The second point, I will arrogantly say, relates to poor upbringing. How is a suit “strange clothes?” I live in New York and I see people in suits everyday everywhere around the City, both young and old, and it is often expected for certain events that guys my age dress in suits as well. Modesty is a virtue not an outdated relic of a generation past.

I don’t really think that was the woman’s point. There is a tendency among certain people who frequent the Usus Antiquior to insist on 1950s style clothing. It amounts to a “dress code” which is something that they’ve invented.

The last point is the most ridiculous. Never should one conflate religious action and politics… You pray because it is appropriate, you do not pray to make a political statement as to which faction you belong. Anyone who does so does it out of either poor catechesis or misguided/insincere faith.

Yes, that is quite true. But again, I don’t think that bears her point. It’s sad, but all too often it happens that the same “dress code” folks noted above are of the extreme right-wing, and they themselves conflate their particular brand of secular politics with the Usus Antiquior. Personally, I find the whole thing appalling. IMHO, you’re 100% correct that it should NOT a political statement.

 

[Brendan_64]

I agree but still wish there could be some dialogue toward understanding. I think it’s comments like Ms. Rowland’s that continue to fuel a certain antagonism between the two camps of a fractured church.

There is no ‘fractured Church’. The vast majority of Catholics attend the OF Mass, with only a tiny minority attending the EF Mass. The majority of that attend the EF do not take issue with Vatican II. To deny the authority of VII as a full Ecumenical Council would be a heretical position.

The Church is not fractured, the vast majority choose to attend the OF Mass, with a small minority choosing to attend the EF Mass. There is no doctrinal conflict here, since both forms of mass are entirely acceptable and equal, in the eyes of the Church. Where is the fracture?

 

[Kevin812]

All I could think of was that if I dressed like a 2 year old at Mass, that would draw considerable attention and my family might be looking for a “home” or the “attic” to stick me in.

The piece is her opinion, unfortunately she has been given an opportunity to spread mistaken notions.

And if we are going to be picky, the hands go under the cloth on the Altar Rail.

 

[Cider]

I don’t really think that was the woman’s point. There is a tendency among certain people who frequent the Usus Antiquior to insist on 1950s style clothing. It amounts to a “dress code” which is something that they’ve invented.

Huh? I haven’t seen any poodle skirts or saddle shoes at the EF, nor any other style of 50s clothing.

 

[SMHW]

The second point, I will arrogantly say, relates to poor upbringing. How is a suit “strange clothes?” I live in New York and I see people in suits everyday everywhere around the City, both young and old, and it is often expected for certain events that guys my age dress in suits as well. Modesty is a virtue not an outdated relic of a generation past.

And that may be an issue for some people right there. Suits on men everyday is very odd to many people.

Suits in general are considered a bit out of the ordinary where I live.

Now obviously Mass is not “ordinary” so don’t misconstrue that to mean I am against men wearing suits to Mass. I just mean that some people (not necessarily consciously) view suits as a bit pretentious.

 

[Tigg]

There is no ‘fractured Church’. The vast majority of Catholics attend the OF Mass, with only a tiny minority attending the EF Mass. The majority of that attend the EF do not take issue with Vatican II. To deny the authority of VII as a full Ecumenical Council would be a heretical position.

The Church is not fractured, the vast majority choose to attend the OF Mass, with a small minority choosing to attend the EF Mass. There is no doctrinal conflict here, since both forms of mass are entirely acceptable and equal, in the eyes of the Church. Where is the fracture?

Please do not attempt to take this in a direction it was not meant to go. Nothing was said about doctrinal differences and no denial was ever made that the two forms of the Mass are not equally valid. Do you like the word divided better? Rupture would be another synonym. Hmm, now, where have we heard that word before?

What I see, even in my own parish, is a certain ill will among Catholics who seem to describe their faith in either social or political terms which colors their attitudes toward their belief. It is sometimes illustrated in a broad spectrum with social justice Catholics on one end and those absolutely unwilling to accept any innovations initiated by V2 on the other. Perhaps that’s what Ms. Rowland alluded to in her point #3. There *are *opposing factions within our Church and I think the descriptive word “fractured” fits, at least in my mind.

 

[FloridaJoan]

Well…We’ve seen what’s happened to the other “dress” threads but I’ll bite anyway.

At the current time, we live in a “grunge” society and the only thing that matters is our own comfort. Whether it be flip flops and shorts, tennies, muscle shirts or jogging suits worn by grandmas at Sunday Mass, we arrive for the sacred liturgy in the same clothes we wore to mow the lawn or clean the house. Now in an earlier generation, I believe there was a greater sense of propriety and even respect for the event to which we would attend. I mean…I wouldn’t wear a bathing suit to go see the Prez, nor would I wear a white shirt and tie to a tennis match. There was a certain order to things and it wasn’t about us - it was about being proper and respectful **of the event and what would happen there. ** I mean really, I would not attend my best friend’s wedding in torn jeans with my shirt tail hanging out, but this is really becoming the norm. If you mean to say that the older generation dressed with more dignity, then I’ll have to agree. BUT I will also say we have no Latin Mass in our little town. I attend the OF and am proud that at least most of those in ministry, up on the altar at our parish, dress respectfully knowing the Lord is present in the Eucharist. This would be shirt and tie for the guys - even a blazer, a blouse and skirt or dress for the ladies, and horrors, I sometimes even wear hose if I decide to wear a dress shoe! Actually it is to honor that which is to be exalted above all else - the Catholic Mass.

And dare I say I discerned a certain mockery in the tone of Ms. Rowland with her “funny” clothes statement?

Have at it!

well said ! We have ( generally speaking) lost our sense of decorum and respect.
What to wear ( at either EF or OF ) when going to visit The KING of kings … easy … my best !

pax et bonum

 

[MorEphrem]

And that may be an issue for some people right there. Suits on men everyday is very odd to many people.

Suits in general are considered a bit out of the ordinary where I live.

Now obviously Mass is not “ordinary” so don’t misconstrue that to mean I am against men wearing suits to Mass. I just mean that some people (not necessarily consciously) view suits as a bit pretentious.

I understand that you’re not saying suits are not proper to mass, but to those who feel uncomfortable doesn’t the fact that wearing a suit is out of the ordinary make it more appropriate since they aren’t vulgar clothes? Hence why I said this is a matter of upbringing and nothing else.

[This isn’t an attack on you, SMHW] People would, without a doubt, wear a suit to meet a senator but to meet their own Creator and King it’s “awkward” to wear anything else. I just find it either hypocritical or insincere. Something to the effect that FloridaJoan said .

 

[SMHW]

[This isn’t an attack on you, SMHW] People would, without a doubt, wear a suit to meet a senator but to meet their own Creator and King it’s “awkward” to wear anything else. I just find it either hypocritical or insincere. Something to the effect that FloridaJoan said .

Again, not arguing about dressing up for Mass. Just trying to offer some differing perspective.

I live in California. *Some *people might wear a suit to meet their senator. But plenty wouldn’t. People wore shorts and tank tops to pay their respects to President Reagan after he died. (And yes I know Reagan himself always dressed up for the White House.)

But I know many of you think we’re crazy so…

 

[Usige]

I don’t generally see many headscarves (or even many ankle length skirts) at dinners, weddings, or even funerals. I have no problem with individuals attending the EF Mass dressing like this, if that is what they personally choose to do, but to maintain that such styles of dress are the general social norm at dinners, weddings and funerals, is incorrect.

And implying that dressing like anything but a slob is “funny clothes” is incorrect too.

I was specifically speaking to someone saying that dresses and suits were in of themselves odd. As a general rule I rarely see people at funerals and weddings in shorts, sweatpants, athletic jerseys, etc.

 

[Brendan_64]

And implying that dressing like anything but a slob is “funny clothes” is incorrect too.

And what classifies someone as dressing like a ‘slob’? Jeans? T-shirts? Shorts? Sandals?

The definition of ‘slob’, according to the Oxford dictionary, is “a person who is lazy and has low standards of cleanliness”.

Don’t you think it is a rather judgmental (and a touch uncharitable) to brand someone in jeans and a t-shirt as a slob?

Perhaps the terms ‘formal’ and ‘informal’ would be more appropriate when describing a person’s style of dress?

 

[ProVobis]

There is no ‘fractured Church’. The vast majority of Catholics attend the OF Mass, with only a tiny minority attending the EF Mass.

I beg to differ. The majority don’t attend Mass at all, unlike the time when the EF was the only form and made much more available than the OF is now.

 

[Brendan_64]

I beg to differ. The majority don’t attend Mass at all, unlike the time when the EF was the only form and made much more available than the OF is now.

that is incorrect. The vast majority of Catholics do attend Mass, they might not all go every week, but they do attend, at least on occasion. And do you really think that the decline in percentage that attend regular Mass is down to the fact that the Mass is no longer in Latin? Nothing to do with huge changes in social culture and attitudes? All to do with the mass no longer being in Latin?

 

[MorEphrem]

I live in California. *Some *people might wear a suit to meet their senator. But plenty wouldn’t. People wore shorts and tank tops to pay their respects to President Reagan after he died. (And yes I know Reagan himself always dressed up for the White House.)

I had no idea. Hmm, maybe I’ve been culturally insulated on the east coast .

 

[ProVobis]

that is incorrect. The vast majority of Catholics do attend Mass, they might not all go every week, but they do attend, at least on occasion.

Do you have the stats that break this down? I’m just going by what my pastor says about most Catholics not stepping foot inside a church after their First Communion nowadays.

And do you really think that the decline in percentage that attend regular Mass is down to the fact that the Mass is no longer in Latin?

That I don’t know. But Latin wasn’t a problem until they decided to change things circa 1964.