Three Barriers to the Latin Mass

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Do you have the stats that break this down? I’m just going by what my pastor says about most Catholics not stepping foot inside a church after their First Communion nowadays.
And has your pastor given you stats that support your claim?
That I don’t know. But Latin wasn’t a problem until they decided to change things circa 1964.
Society has changed hugely since the 1950s. It is highly unlikely that keeping Latin Mass would have prevented the decline we have seen. Decline in Mass attendances are as a result of our changing society, not as a result of Mass in the vernacular.
 
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Decline in Mass attendances are as a result of our changing society…
What exactly is a “changing society”? Wasn’t it changing during the 20’s and 30’s and 40’s? Or in the 18th and 19th century, for that matter? Wasn’t there an Industrial Revolution in there somewhere?
 
What exactly is a “changing society”? Wasn’t it changing during the 20’s and 30’s and 40’s? Or in the 18th and 19th century, for that matter?
Pre-WWII lacked the demon that is post-modernity (whatever that word even means) :p.
 
And has your pastor given you stats that support your claim?
I’ll see if I can get some for you. Maybe he missed a few last Christmas, which I’m sure will bring the numbers of people who come to church “at least on occasion” up considerably? To what, 30-40%? :rolleyes:
 
What exactly is a “changing society”? Wasn’t it changing during the 20’s and 30’s and 40’s? Or in the 18th and 19th century, for that matter? Wasn’t there an Industrial Revolution in there somewhere?
Good heavens, no.

From Article 4, *Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World *: “Today, the human race is involved in a new stage of history. Profound and rapid changes are spreading by degrees around the whole world. Triggered by the intelligence and creative energies of man, these changes recoil upon him, upon his decisions and desires, both individual and collective, and upon his manner of thinking and acting with respect to things and to people. Hence we can already speak of a true cultural and social transformation, one which has repercussions on man’s religious life as well……As happens in any crisis of growth, this transformation has brought serious difficulties in its wake.”

And this was written 50 years ago!!

For anyone wishing to see the Council’s reasoning for the above, I recommend the Introductory Statement to the Constitution (not that long or difficult a read) which can be found here:

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_cons_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html
 
Good heavens, no.
I didn’t say Vatican II was wrong with regards to the 50’s and 60’s. But can one say infallibly that other periods hadn’t been “changing”? What about in the last 10 years?
 
I didn’t say Vatican II was wrong with regards to the 50’s and 60’s. But can one say infallibly that other periods hadn’t been “changing”? What about in the last 10 years?
But that’s the point I was making. Yes, almost all of society, culture, the world, if you will, was changing, although much more dramatically and rapidly in the first half of the 20th century then in the previous several centuries. And that change continues at a pace and a scope beyond what the Council fathers could ever imagine. But our Church was not changing, not in its doctrines, which are unchangeable, but also not in the statement of those doctrines and in those elements of our liturgy, our official public worship, which could be changed and needed to be changed if they were to remain relevant to the vast majority of its members.

You are highly skilled in languages including Latin. I admire that. You display a fondness for “all things Latin” and I’m sure that the celebration of the Mass in Latin is especially meaningful for you. I respect that. But again for the vast majority I dare say (I can’t say this infallibly since Francis was elected instead of me:)) that this is not the case nor had it been for centuries. “No matter though,” was the official position, “you folks don’t need to understand what is being said word for word. The clergy will take care of that; you just need to be present while it’s going on.”

“Is that the best you’ve got” the emerging generations began to ask, rightly or wrongly, about practically everything, doctrines, disciplines and worship included. “If so, convince us and we’ll buy it; if not, why can’t we have the better?”

Did the changes cause the turmoil? I believe the turmoil caused the changes.
 
that is incorrect. The vast majority of Catholics do attend Mass, they might not all go every week, but they do attend, at least on occasion. And do you really think that the decline in percentage that attend regular Mass is down to the fact that the Mass is no longer in Latin? Nothing to do with huge changes in social culture and attitudes? All to do with the mass no longer being in Latin?
pewforum.org/Christian/Catholic/Strong-Catholic-Identity-at-a-Four-Decade-Low-in-US.aspx

pewresearch.org/key-data-points/u-s-catholics-key-data-from-pew-research/#attendmass

pewforum.org/Christian/Catholic/Strong-Catholic-Identity-at-a-Four-Decade-Low-in-US.aspx#strong

“Four-in-ten U.S. Catholics (41%) say they attend worship services at least once a week. The same percentage (41%) attends monthly or a few times a year, while 17% seldom or never attend.”

Some will blame this on societal changes over the last 60-80 years. I would suggest that the cause-effect is the reverse.
 
You are highly skilled in languages including Latin. I admire that. You display a fondness for “all things Latin” and I’m sure that the celebration of the Mass in Latin is especially meaningful for you. I respect that.
In all honesty, I was one of the first who thought the vernacular would be a good idea at the time. But when it was actually put into practice, and I began to see some, shall we say, profiteering going on as well as the loss of the mystery, I began to think otherwise. I think many others thought the same way.
Some will blame this on societal changes over the last 60-80 years. I would suggest that the cause-effect is the reverse.
Thank you. The Church losing its moral leadership in the world can’t be blamed solely on external societal changes IMO.
 
“Four-in-ten U.S. Catholics (41%) say they attend worship services at least once a week. The same percentage (41%) attends monthly or a few times a year, while 17% seldom or never attend.”
Yet when they do go, all receive Communion anyway. I guess the obligation to attend on Sundays and Holydays (does anyone check Jan 1st attendance?) isn’t taken very seriously by them.
 
The only three barriers to the Latin Mass I know of are bishops, priests and laity. 🙂
 
“Four-in-ten U.S. Catholics (41%) say they attend worship services at least once a week. The same percentage (41%) attends monthly or a few times a year, while 17% seldom or never attend.”
Half of that, according to Cara data

cara.georgetown.edu/CARAServices/requestedchurchstats.html

nineteensixty-four.blogspot.com/2009/09/nuances-of-accurately-measuring-mass.html

As far as less than once a week are counted, I don’t see the point. The obligation is to attend EVERY Sunday and Holyday.
 
Half of that, according to Cara data

cara.georgetown.edu/CARAServices/requestedchurchstats.html

nineteensixty-four.blogspot.com/2009/09/nuances-of-accurately-measuring-mass.html

As far as less than once a week are counted, I don’t see the point. The obligation is to attend EVERY Sunday and Holyday.
It’s the middle of summer. That means that most every Mass at our parish is, at best, only 2/3 of normal winter attendance. It will remain this way until the 3rd week of August when religious ed starts again. We’ve been keeping records for about three years now and it hardly varies. As soon as classes finish, families are in hiatus - the offertory drops and there’s never a problem finding a seat! The bottom line…Catholics no longer believe it a serious matter to miss Mass.
 
It’s the middle of summer. That means that most every Mass at our parish is, at best, only 2/3 of normal winter attendance. It will remain this way until the 3rd week of August when religious ed starts again. We’ve been keeping records for about three years now and it hardly varies. As soon as classes finish, families are in hiatus - the offertory drops and there’s never a problem finding a seat! The bottom line…Catholics no longer believe it a serious matter to miss Mass.
Indeed. I do find it noteworthy, though, that in the survey Pulvis referred to, the Protestant attendance numbers are higher than those of Catholics, in spite of the fact Protestants aren’t obligated to attend and despite the similarities of the English liturgies.
 
I found those barriers to just be sweeping generalizations that could easily be turned on the Novus Ordo.

For one, you could say that in a NO Mass aestheticism is present as well. While some could argue that the only reason they attend a TLM is because “it looks pretty” a lot of NO attendees (especially for the “Contemporary Service” types) could say they do it, because “they like the hymns.”

While there are those who at a TLM who will complain about “oh they didn’t do A right” which the lady is right, there are those who do complain about “this not being sung or this part in the liturgy was not done right” but guess what you get that in the NO aswell as the TLM.

I’d like to see how many of the same complaints this lady (I’m sorry I forget her name) would hear, if the priest at the NO began to chant the Kyrie in Greek instead of the vernacular…or demanding parishioners receive Communion on the tongue instead of in the hand (like they do at the Vatican)…I guarantee you, you will hear complaints.

As for the second barrier, once again…go to any NO Mass…there will be “funny dressed” people. If you were raised in a household where you were taught modesty…you would find it appalling to see some women in short shorts, showing off their rears (not looking to start a clothes-modesty firestorm here) or some men in tank tops going before Our Lord.

As for the third barrier…there is a point, especially with the sedevacantists…but when you realize the TLM uses the Roman Missal of 1962 which was of Blessed John XXIII (soon to be a saint). Last time I checked, it was Blessed John XXIII who called and opened the Second Vatican Council. Also when one looks at the Second Vatican Council there was never supposed to be an “all vernacular” Mass. Only the Readings, directives and a few prayers and chants were to be in the vernacular but the laity was to know the Latin Mass. This was and is the rule for the Paul VI Mass.

So really there is no barrier to the EF, other than the one NO types place before them…just as there are no barriers to a proper NO Mass…except for the ones SSPX’ers and sedevacantists place before themselves. As Summorum Pontificum clearly stated what was already true. Both the EF and OF are valid forms of worship.
 
I think her 3 barriers are really peripheral. I was expecting barriers like: 1.There are not enough priests who can (or desire to) pray the EF Mass. 2. Younger generations have not experienced the universality of praying the Mass in Latin (Mass is the same everywhere). 3. Patience: It takes practice to learn a new/old way to pray.
 
I think her 3 barriers are really peripheral. I was expecting barriers like: 1.There are not enough priests who can (or desire to) pray the EF Mass. 2. Younger generations have not experienced the universality of praying the Mass in Latin (Mass is the same everywhere). 3. Patience: It takes practice to learn a new/old way to pray.
I have no doubt EF attendance would be a lot higher given enough availability of the EF. But to be fair, I’d say the Anglican Use attendance would be higher given enough availability of that Mass as well. Or Eastern Catholic liturgies, for that matter. We seem to forget that those are valid options as well.
 
Upon reflecting a bit, I’m ambivalent about Rowland’s points.

I do think the second point is the weakest and most suspect. Scolding traditionalists for being aesthetically obsessed and nitpicky, and then criticizing them for dressing funny, does indeed smack of hypocrisy. Moreover, in my experience, people at extraordinary form Masses do not, in fact, “dress funny.” They were mantillas and dress more formally and more modestly than most Mass-goers, but I would never think to accuse them of just having stepped out of the 1950s. I see a lot of knee or ankle-length dresses and skirts, modest but not absurd blouses, collared shirts on men, with or without a jacket or tie. I don’t know what the TLM near Rowland is like, but none of the above strikes me as so old-fashioned that someone could reasonably be intimidated and scared off by it.

Rowland’s first point is more legitimate, I think. I absolutely do see what she calls “aestheticism,” in myself and in others. And I think she is right to say that it can be offputting to outsiders, and even a bit spiritually damaging, when we constantly nitpick every little decision made at Mass. If you are in charge of the liturgy in some capacity–perhaps as a choir director or section leader or altar server–then it’s good to be precise and care about the little details. But if you are just someone in the pews, and you encounter something you think is a bad decision (but which is not, in fact, a liturgical abuse), I believe the best practice spiritually is to humbly accept the decision of those in charge and go on being quietly grateful for the Mass. That is how a holy monk or a nun would probably respond.

But a few factors mitigate her point. First, even when traditionalists do nitpick, in my experience they nitpick far more at middling ordinary form Masses than at extraordinary form Masses. I’ve heard of exceptions, but usually traditionalists are just grateful and content after an extraordinary form Mass. Second, nobody loves the extraordinary form “just because it’s beautiful.” They prefer it because it is beautiful, but love it because it is Mass. Third, I have never heard a traditionalist offer a criticism as minor and purely aesthetic as “that soprano really didn’t hit that high C.” Most criticisms offered by trads are more substantive, and even more importantly, are genuinely liturgical (as opposed to purely aesthetic). A trad who complains about the lack of the introit and communion chant at an ordinary form Mass is not offering an aesthetic criticism; he is offering a genuinely liturgical criticism.

I think her third point is pretty legitimate as well. In my opinion, it’s difficult to overestimate the damage done by the systematic disobedience and attacks on Catholic doctrine perpetrated by the SSPX and other similar traditionalists with “schismatic attitudes.” If anything, I think obedient traditionalists need to push harder in insisting that what they are doing is trying to be faithful to Vatican II and renew its effect on the Church. When someone says they don’t like Latin at Mass, ask them why they’re so against Vatican II. When someone says they don’t want Gregorian chant at Mass, ask them why they’re so against Vatican II. That is the proper tack, not looking on Vatican II with suspicion and sorrow.
 
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