Three cheers for "cafeteria" Catholics

[phil19034]

Threads like these make me think maybe I’m not in the right religion.

I want to be Catholic, honestly. Believe me when I say I do. I was raised in this religion and would hopefully raise my own children in it. I have had personal experiences with God that have left me unable to doubt His presence in my life.

But I cannot and refuse to shut off my brain. If I have a moral objection to something in the Church that I have researched thoroughly and prayed about, I should not have to shrug and assume the Church is right and I’m wrong. With no room for debate or understanding, how is any institution supposed to flourish?

God gave us logic and critical thinking for a reason. I think oftentimes Catholics want me to use my logic but only if the end result is Catholicism. If my faculties point me to the slightest deviation from the Catechism, then I simply am not thinking about it hard enough or haven’t read enough (God forbid) Aquinas. And if in spite of all that I still don’t see “The Truth” then I ought to give up my will and assume the Church is right.

Maybe this is pride talking, or my ego desperate not to be given up, but these are genuine frustrations that the Church has to response to.

Could you please provide an example of what teaching? Because if it’s not Dogma or Doctrine, there might be some latitude. I too used to think like you do, but as I have become more and more evangelized & catechized; I’ve discovered the brilliance in Catholic teaching.

I could talk to you about the mortal sins I used to commit or approve of and now how I am 100% against them. And I’m on 37 years old. Once you realize that Christ speaks through the Church and doesn’t not allow the Church to error in terms of Faith and Morals, you realized that everything the Church teaches comes directly from Christ.

I married a Jewish woman back in the day. We are still married, but she is still not comfortable with me going to Mass and Bible Study or never missing on Sundays. When we married, I only went once or twice a year. My wife can’t even say the word “church.” She will ask me what time are you going to your “shindig” and when will you be home? It’s not easy. I feel called to do more and more for the Church, but I can’t do all I want because of my wife. But I also cannot deny the Truth.

Feel free to PM me if you have questions.

My The Lord Bless you on your Faith journey.

 

[Peter_Plato]

This The only authority I have to tell me that the church is 100% right on everything is the church.

Well, no, actually. You have the authority of Jesus himself who said, “You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.”

Either he said those words and meant something significant by them or he did not say them. Whether you think so or not, he did say them and we have every reason for believing that he did since we have every reason for believing Christianity is true and the testimony of the Apostles / Gospels is authentic.

My money is with Christ AND the Church he founded precisely because he had no reason to make such a statement except because he intended it as a full endorsement of the Church.

The fact that Church teaching is NOT merely a set of statements with the rider clause stating, “Believe or else,” refutes your contention above. Church teachings are well worked out, solidly reasoned and explained with an abundance of references to Scripture, the Words of Christ, big T Tradition and support from the writings and examples of saints throughout history. By the way, all of these are blatantly opposed to modern liberal views on ethics and spirituality.

Your statement is plainly in error regarding how the Church defends its teaching.

Some words to ponder concerning WHO it is that ultimately is the authority regarding existence…

‘The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one shall shut, who shuts and no one opens…

“‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth. For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing; not knowing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. Therefore I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, that you may be rich, and white garments to clothe you and to keep the shame of your nakedness from being seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, that you may see. Those whom I love, I reprove and chasten; so be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any one hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. He who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’” (Rev 4:1-22)

 

[phil19034]

This The only authority I have to tell me that the church is 100% right on everything is the church. And how do I know they’re right when they say that? Because the church is 100% right on everything – yay circuitous logic! What are we supposed to do if – having gone into it with an open mind, and having prayed, and having read every argument we can find – we still think the church’s explanation for something doesn’t hold up? I feel like that’s how things like the crusades or the inquisition happened – well the church said it’s right, so I guess it’s right.

There is a reason it’s called Faith and not Reason.

You either believe that Christ and the Holy Spirit protect his Church from error regarding Faith and Morals or you don’t. This is perhaps the number one difference between Catholics & Orthodox vs Protestants. Catholics and Orthodox believe the Church is infallible due to God’s guidance. Protestants do not.

The Church isn’t infallible when it comes to economics, immigration policy, etc… But we should still listen because there usually is a moral message there too which we should understand.

So the question becomes do you have Faith or do you need facts to back everything up? I used to be like that. But now I understand that Christ doesn’t allow the Church to error when teaching Faith and Morals, which means the Church teaches God’s will.

May The Lord Bless you on your Faith journey.

 

[One_point]

This The only authority I have to tell me that the church is 100% right on everything is the church. And how do I know they’re right when they say that? Because the church is 100% right on everything – yay circuitous logic! What are we supposed to do if – having gone into it with an open mind, and having prayed, and having read every argument we can find – we still think the church’s explanation for something doesn’t hold up? I feel like that’s how things like the crusades or the inquisition happened – well the church said it’s right, so I guess it’s right.

Like I said earlier, it is a matter of faith. Jesus promised that the gates would never prevail, Jesus gave the keys his authority to the church, Jesus said what you bind is bound, what you loose is loosed, Jesus said whatever you forgive is forgiven, whatever you retain is retained. Jesus said whoever listens to you listens to me. At the end the question is whether you believe in truth that is beyond you or not. the church doesn’t just make wild claims out of nowhere. You can trace the truth of Christ and his church for yourself and come to a reasonable conclusion. But at end you must make an act of faith which is act of humility to be a believer: I dont know everything. God, teach me! Some of the complaints here. I bet they have not really given the church’s position and reasoning on any one issue enough chance. You cannot say that the church just asks for blind trust when the church always gives good reasons for teachings on all controversial issue. But if you cannot give your assent of faith, then you are lying to people and yourself to say either you are true catholic or that your positions are the true catholic positions. You dont speak for Catholicism. You spak for your own individual desires. My issue is where a person sets themselves up as speaking for Catholicism when they are speaking of their individual tailor’ made religion they are making along the way. They recognize no authority beyond their own will and yet they insist on being counted in the company of those who recognize it. It is a lie in my opinion. I will not say leave the church because I sin but I know it is very dishonest to say I am a catholic but I don’t accept Catholicism.

 

[Bookcat]

A very important read from Pope Benedict XVI:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20090628_chius-anno-paolino_en.html (starts second paragraph–but read to the end…).

 

[Bookcat]

“Paul wants Christians to have a “responsible” and “adult faith”. The words “adult faith” in recent decades have formed a widespread slogan. It is often meant in the sense of the attitude of those who no longer listen to the Church and her Pastors but autonomously choose what they want to believe and not to believe hence a do-it-yourself faith. And it is presented as a “courageous” form of self-expression against the Magisterium of the Church. In fact, however, no courage is needed for this because one may always be certain of public applause. Rather, courage is needed to adhere to the Church’s faith, even if this contradicts the “logic” of the contemporary world. This is the non-conformism of faith which Paul calls an “adult faith”. It is the faith that he desires.”

~Pope Benedict XVI 28 June 2009

 

[Joe_5859]

This The only authority I have to tell me that the church is 100% right on everything is the church. And how do I know they’re right when they say that? Because the church is 100% right on everything – yay circuitous logic! What are we supposed to do if – having gone into it with an open mind, and having prayed, and having read every argument we can find – we still think the church’s explanation for something doesn’t hold up? I feel like that’s how things like the crusades or the inquisition happened – well the church said it’s right, so I guess it’s right.

It kind of annoys me when people lob the claim at the Church that Catholics are supposed to check their brain at the door. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Church would have nothing close to the rich and deep intellectual philosophical and theological tradition of the past 2000 years if all Catholics did was to check their brain at the door. I do a heck of a lot more critical thinking now as a devout Catholic than I ever did when I was going through periods of doubt.

I know it can seem like an intellectual short-cut, but really it is not. Any question I have ever had about the faith (and I had plenty), I have found satisfactory answers to precisely because I was using my brain.

It’s not circular reasoning to put one’s trust in the Church. I trust the Church because I trust Jesus. And I trust Jesus because I have encountered Him.

And there’s nothing wrong with the fact that trust plays a part in things. Our entire lives are built on who or what we put out trust in. Do we trust the random anecdotes we have picked up over the years to accurately tell us about the Church’s role in things like the Inquisition? Do we trust this or that website, textbook, or news source to convey the facts and interpret them fairly and correctly? Do we trust our own brain to be seeing all sides of an issue and making a judgment that is not being skewed by some logical fallacy?

I know I am a finite human being. I know that I have been wrong before. Which probably means there are things I am wrong about now. And I will no doubt be wrong about other things in the future.

Now imagine that there exists a God who is all knowing, all good and all powerful and that He created everything. Imagine He loves us so much that He actually chose to reveal Himself to us. And because He wants to make sure we have a certain way to know Him as He really is, He established a Church by which these truths – so essential to our salvation – could be communicated to every generation for the rest of time.

Knowing what I know about my own limitations and trusting the One who I have encountered in my life, it’s not very difficult for me to imagine that it is far, far more likely that I would be in error than that the Church is in error. Though, honestly, I have not really experienced such a disconnect. Every Church teaching that I have investigated makes sense to me. There is nothing that I am really accepting solely on “blind faith.”

And, again, this is not to say we check our brains at the door. We certainly do not. But let’s not imply that it is irrational for people to trust the Church’s judgment over our own. I think it’s far more rational to trust an institution established by the Infinite and Immutable God than it is for me to trust my own limited and fallible judgment.

 

[Rico_S]

Wow! You really think so? Despite the words of Christ who definitively said otherwise?

Christ said my parish would never close? I did not know that…that is sooo cool!!.

 

[sw85]

This The only authority I have to tell me that the church is 100% right on everything is the church.

See, you say you’ve really really really tried and researched and studied etc. on various issues to understand the Catholic viewpoint on things. Then you say stuff like this which completely undermines that.

Because when in the world has anyone, anywhere, ever said that the church is “100% right on everything”?!

 

[garyo49]

JFK? (trying to think what president a lot of Catholics voted for)

Think harder.

 

[phil19034]

Christ said my parish would never close? I did not know that…that is sooo cool!!.

Parish??? Christ doesn’t protect individual parishes against anything. He doesn’t even protect National Bishop Conferences or Dioceses (except maybe the Diocese of Rome - though the Popes have pretty much delegated the day to day responsibilities of Bishop to Rome to his version of “Auxiliary Bishops”). Christ protects the magisterium of the universal Church, the universal teaching.

God Bless

 

[Bookcat]

“Paul wants Christians to have a “responsible” and “adult faith”. The words “adult faith” in recent decades have formed a widespread slogan. It is often meant in the sense of the attitude of those who no longer listen to the Church and her Pastors but autonomously choose what they want to believe and not to believe hence a do-it-yourself faith. And it is presented as a “courageous” form of self-expression against the Magisterium of the Church. In fact, however, no courage is needed for this because one may always be certain of public applause. Rather, courage is needed to adhere to the Church’s faith, even if this contradicts the “logic” of the contemporary world. This is the non-conformism of faith which Paul calls an “adult faith”. It is the faith that he desires.”

~Pope Benedict XVI 28 June 2009

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20090628_chius-anno-paolino_en.html (starts second paragraph–but read to the end…).

 

[Mulligan2]

I know a lot of people on CAF complain about so-called “cafeteria” Catholics who disagree with the Church on certain issues. In fact, when I was deciding whether to get baptized or not I was told point-blank by some members here that the church would be better off without me.

But I was thinking about it today, and here’s what I thought:

By a lot of accounts, something like 70% of Catholics disagree with doctrine on at least one of the major “social justice” issues. Now, yes, people are entitled to wishing that those 70% would become come more in-line with traditional views. But what if they went the other way?

Could the Catholic Church as an institution (at least as we know it today) survive if 70% of its members decided to, say, become Episcopalians instead? I can’t be the only “cafeteria” Catholic who’s a regular church-goers who supports their parishes both socially and financially. What would it look like if all of those people walked?

Maybe I’m just in a mood today, but I think we should be applauding people who hang on to this faith by their fingernails instead of complaining about them. There’s a saying that courage isn’t not being afraid, it’s being afraid and going ahead anyway. Something similar could probably be said in this case. It’s easy to do what the church wants if you agree with it. But three cheers for those who try to stay with and support the church despite personal differences that they can’t reconcile.

Just my two cents.

Interesting post. I personally don’t like the phrase “Cafeteria Catholics” as it has a very prideful and superior connotation, as if the person using the phrase is somehow holier or more religious than the person they are speaking of. I don’t know any Catholics who are 100% in lock-step with the church on every single issue. Many Catholics have intuitive beliefs on certain topics - as a result of reason, logic, science, personal experience, etc. Belittling them is not going to change their beliefs. And asking them to leave the church is short-sighted and wrong. I take you at your word that there were members of CAF who said the church would be better off without you. That is very disappointing.

 

[spunjalebi]

To be honest, I am not sure there is much more to add. If someone has an intellectual issue with the Church and disagrees, do they expect the Church to change her position in order to suit the person disagreeing? The Church’s teachings are founded upon Jesus, and from Him we came to understand faith through scripture, reason, and tradition.

None of us are theologians. None of us have the answers or the answers that dissenters are hoping we can say to them. I don’t have much more to add, except to ask those who dissent to see what God has to say about it through scripture, tradition, and reason.

 

[true1]

I think you’re courageous for feeling your doubts and doing it anyway, with an eye to growing in understanding along the way.

Don’t you dare think the church would be better off without THINKING people, like yourself.
Obedience is one thing, but blindness is another. And ignorance is a slippery slope. It is so much easier to take authority’s word than to thrash out the issues personally, daily, as we encounter challenges to doctrine in our lives.

I agree with Muligan, the term “cafeteria Catholic” is pejorative. So is the new, chic-er version “buffet Catholic”. Either way it implies condescension.

You are accepting what you can grasp in faith for the time being. That’s not being choosy, those are the gradual steps of discernment.

Be brave. Love the mystery.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

I have always used and understood the term Cafeteria Christians to mean those who simply search for the teachings, doctrines, rules, music and ceremony that appeals to them.

I see Cafeteria Catholics as those who have left the Catholic Church to find another church that "fits’ their way of life.

I don’t see Catholics/Christians who respectfully dissent or question the teachings or tenants or their respective religions as a “Cafeteria” type. There is nothing wrong with objective questioning. Remember Doctrine can change.

 

[Buck_Crosswhite]

Could the Catholic Church as an institution (at least as we know it today) survive if 70% of its members decided to, say, become Episcopalians instead?

The Church would survive if there is only one loyal person. Numbers don’t mean anything.

 

[cycleman]

Threads like these make me think maybe I’m not in the right religion.

I want to be Catholic, honestly. Believe me when I say I do. I was raised in this religion and would hopefully raise my own children in it. I have had personal experiences with God that have left me unable to doubt His presence in my life.

But I cannot and refuse to shut off my brain. If I have a moral objection to something in the Church that I have researched thoroughly and prayed about, I should not have to shrug and assume the Church is right and I’m wrong. With no room for debate or understanding, how is any institution supposed to flourish?

God gave us logic and critical thinking for a reason. I think oftentimes Catholics want me to use my logic but only if the end result is Catholicism. If my faculties point me to the slightest deviation from the Catechism, then I simply am not thinking about it hard enough or haven’t read enough (God forbid) Aquinas. And if in spite of all that I still don’t see “The Truth” then I ought to give up my will and assume the Church is right.

Maybe this is pride talking, or my ego desperate not to be given up, but these are genuine frustrations that the Church has to response to.

Wow! I couldn’t have said it better, thank you!

I have strong disagreements with certain teachings. In my heart of hearts, using the brain God gave me, I think the Church has got it wrong on some issues. I am not rejecting God or Jesus Christ, I an rejecting the church teaching because I don’t believe that God ‘believes’ (that’s a poor word for it, but I think you get what I mean) what the church teaches.

In the Catholic church, there is no room for disagreement or dissent with these basic teachings. The Church is right, I am wrong, case closed. They are divine, I am either stupid, misguided, or prideful.

So, am I really a Catholic?

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Threads like these make me think maybe I’m not in the right religion.

I want to be Catholic, honestly. Believe me when I say I do. I was raised in this religion and would hopefully raise my own children in it. I have had personal experiences with God that have left me unable to doubt His presence in my life.

But I cannot and refuse to shut off my brain. If I have a moral objection to something in the Church that I have researched thoroughly and prayed about, I should not have to shrug and assume the Church is right and I’m wrong. With no room for debate or understanding, how is any institution supposed to flourish?

**God gave us logic and critical thinking for a reason. **I think oftentimes Catholics want me to use my logic but only if the end result is Catholicism. If my faculties point me to the slightest deviation from the Catechism, then I simply am not thinking about it hard enough or haven’t read enough (God forbid) Aquinas. **And if in spite of all that I still don’t see “The Truth” then I ought to give up my will and assume the Church is right. **

Maybe this is pride talking, or my ego desperate not to be given up, but these are genuine frustrations that the Church has to response to.

You say you should follow logic and critical thinking, and that’s true.

Does your reasoning tell you that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by and guided by God? If no, then your reasoning doesn’t tell you to be Catholic, if yes then it does. But you say that your reasoning also tells you that some of the Church’s teachings are wrong.

But that would be a contradiction - something has to give, or you are not following logic like you say you should. It is not logical to say both that the Church is and is not what it says it is. So if you believe both, then you must be wrong about one or the other.

The question is, which one? And if after reading and thinking you can’t resolve the issues you have, then the question becomes which is more likely? Leaving aside the particular issues you may have, you have two logical choices:

a) you are certain enough in your reasoning about your issues to discard whatever it is that led you to the Church

b) you are certain enough in your reasoning about the Church to admit that you can be wrong about whatever issues you may have

In both cases, you are discarding something that your reasoning led you to, because, again, you know that you must be wrong about something. The question is which do you think is more likely?

So it’s not that the Church says you must check your brain at the door, or that you must give up on reason. It’s just that you can’t stop reasoning simply because you ran into a contradiction where you don’t want to give up on either side. Logic requires that you resolve this contradiction one way or the other. Making a choice is not giving up. Refusing to make a choice and pretending that everything is ok is giving up.

 

[St_Francis]

I have always used and understood the term Cafeteria Christians to mean those who simply search for the teachings, doctrines, rules, music and ceremony that appeals to them.

I see Cafeteria Catholics as those who have left the Catholic Church to find another church that "fits’ their way of life.

I don’t see Catholics/Christians who respectfully dissent or question the teachings or tenants or their respective religions as a “Cafeteria” type. There is nothing wrong with objective questioning. Remember Doctrine can change.

Well, the way the term is generally used, it means a Catholic who does not believe one or more teachings of the Church. Those who support abortion being legal who were baptized Catholic and who have not left the Church, for example.

This is not a new phenomena, btw. Here is what St Thomas Aquinas had to say about those who rejected just one aspect of the Faith:

On the contrary, Just as mortal sin is contrary to charity, so is disbelief in one article of faith contrary to faith. Now charity does not remain in a man after one mortal sin. Therefore neither does faith, after a man disbelieves one article.

I answer that, Neither living nor lifeless faith remains in a heretic who disbelieves one article of faith…

Now it is manifest that he who adheres to the teaching of the Church, as to an infallible rule, assents to whatever the Church teaches; otherwise, if, of the things taught by the Church, **he holds what he chooses to hold, and rejects what he chooses to reject, he no longer adheres to the teaching of the Church as to an infallible rule, *but to his own will. *Hence it is evident that a heretic who obstinately disbelieves one article of faith, is not prepared to follow the teaching of the Church in all things; but if he is not obstinate, he is no longer in heresy but only in error. Therefore it is clear that such a[n obstinant] heretic with regard to one article has no faith in the other articles, but only a kind of opinion in accordance with his own will.

Summa Theologica II-II 5 Q 3 **