Three Principals For Honoring Your Husband

[thewanderer]

Trace the history, dates, people, it is born out of evil, just like the liberation theologies and as I do support civil rights, the civil rights movement was also born of communism. It appears to unite, but, only functions to divide!

All I’m saying is that what feminists state that they stand for is the recognition of equal dignity between men and women. This is in and of itself a good thing. So just because a certain group of people take this principle and apply it badly doesn’t mean that the principle itself is bad. I freely admit that I am a feminist because all that being a feminist means is desiring men and women to be treated with equal dignity. I also think it is wrong to put pressure on women to work outside of their homes, that doesn’t deny the fact that its wrong to pay men and women different amounts for the same job. So, as I’ve said, some people use the principle of feminism, that men and women have equal dignity and should be treated accordingly, and apply it in a way that fails to accomplish this. How does that mean that feminism is in and of itself a bad thing?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

The Catholic Church doesn’t teach women to be submissive within the definition that you seem to want to give to submission.

You seem to be saying that you think it means “having no backbone” or being oppressed. It does not.

I think Father Echert explains it well.

ewtn.org/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=562010&Pg=Forum7&Pgnu=1&recnu=1

"The Church provides several options for the readings on the Feast of the Holy Family among which is a biblical text from Saint Paul on the matter of Christian marriage and family:

“Put on, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, heartfelt compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience, bearing with one another and forgiving one another, if one has a grievance against another; as the Lord has forgiven you, so must you also do. And over all these put on love, that is, the bond of perfection. And let the peace of Christ control your hearts, the peace into which you were also called in one body. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, as in all wisdom you teach and admonish one another, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, in word or in deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is proper in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives, and avoid any bitterness toward them. Children, obey your parents in everything, for this is pleasing to the Lord. Fathers, do not provoke your children, so they may not become discouraged.”

This is a biblical text that some prefer to skip over because what is demanded of spouses but that is a disservice to the Christian theology of marriage. Relative to customs of the ancient Middle East this teaching on the dignity of a wife was countercultural; relative to the feminism of modern times it remains countercultural to this day. Saint Paul rooted this changeless teaching in the original order of creation and the spiritual recreation accomplished through Christ. A husband is called to sacrificial love for his spouse, as Christ died for the Church, and a wife is called to submission to her spouse, as the Church is obedient to Christ. **The two are subject to one another but not in identical ways. As Pope Pius XI expressed it:
**
“The submission of the wife neither ignores nor suppresses the liberty to which her dignity as a human person and her noble functions as wife, mother and companion give her the full right. It does not oblige her to yield indiscriminately to all the desires of her husband, which may be unreasonable or incompatible with her wifely dignity. Nor does it mean that she is on a level with persons who in law are called minors and who are ordinarily denied the unrestricted exercise of their rights on the ground of their immature judgment and inexperience. But it does forbid such abuse of freedom as would neglect the welfare of the family; it refuses, in this body which is the family, to allow the heart to be separated from the head, with great detriment to the body itself and even with risk of disaster. If the husband is the head of the domestic body, then the wife is its heart; and as the first holds the primacy of authority, so the second can and ought to claim the primacy of love.” (Casti connubii, 10)

Father Echert"

I think for the most part this is exactly what you are saying Serap, but you seem to be very bothered by the word submission .

How is saying that the man/husband is like God and the woman/wife is like the mere* Church* an expression of equality?
In any argument between God and the Church, God is right/more important by definition.

 

[heart4home]

Nope, not bothered by word “submission”. I am very much loved and respected by my husband for my ability to be flexible as a wife and mother.

You have said you wont’ submit to anyone in a previous thread and also that your husband likes your backbone. From that I understood you to mean, that you think submitting would mean losing your backbone.

So to clarify, would you mind explaining what you see the word submission as meaning since in one post you say you are not bothered by it and yet you have said repeatedly that the Church doesn’t teach us that we have to (although I think that’s not entirely true) and so you will not.

I’m just trying to understand if you really don’t see submission as oppressing or as losing your backbone, what it is you see that is wrong with it, when it is done as instructed to us in the scriptures and indirectly through much Church teaching.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

AA8,

Are you really saying that if the husdand has the final say then the wife is not equal?
So if I were, out of love and as a sign of respect to my husband, let him make the final decision on many matters that would affect our family I would lose my equality with him? In order for me to be equal I need to ensure that we each get the final say the exact ssame number of times?

I sure hope that all you mean is that if a woman is forced into submitting there is something wrong with that. Yes, it is wrong to force a woman to give up her say in something simply because she’s a woman. And while there are people that still try to force their wife into submission, or who mistakenly believe that the Catholic Church teaches that all women must always let their husbands have the final say, there are a lot of people who love the idea of giving up their say in certain matters as a sign of love for their spouse, and this is a beautiful thing. And as I said before, I haven’t seen anything yet which implies that anyone who spoke of submission as a good thing think that women should all be forced to submit just because they are women.

Yes.
People being forced to submit is not the same as people willing submitting to some greater authority (such as men and women who join the marines and submit themselves to military discipline).

 

[judcargile]

All I’m saying is that what feminists state that they stand for is the recognition of equal dignity between men and women. This is in and of itself a good thing. So just because a certain group of people take this principle and apply it badly doesn’t mean that the principle itself is bad. I freely admit that I am a feminist because all that being a feminist means is desiring men and women to be treated with equal dignity. I also think it is wrong to put pressure on women to work outside of their homes, that doesn’t deny the fact that its wrong to pay men and women different amounts for the same job. So, as I’ve said, some people use the principle of feminism, that men and women have equal dignity and should be treated accordingly, and apply it in a way that fails to accomplish this. How does that mean that feminism is in and of itself a bad thing?

The Church say that men and women are equal in human dignity. You can call yourself a Christian and make the same point. On average men make more than women because they tend to be in the workforce longer. My personal take on that old line is that it is simple propaganda. I have belonged to a labor union for the past twelve years and sex was not a requirement for wage; Job classification was. I have never seen a female make less in my experience, but, if you repeat a lie enough times, people will believe it. You can call yourself what you want; But, the whole idea behind the concious deceivers is to divide and conquer. This thread is a very good example of this as most commentators here never comprehended the point of the thread, it is sad. I thought both books were beautiful and want to hand them out to every married couple I know.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Such statements remind me of this quote:

**“The curse of modern times is the propensity of male hormones in places where they can do the most damage”
― Robert James Waller **
I think in marriage we submit to God first, wholly and completely, then in mimicking his love for us and redemptive grace, submit wholly and completely to each other as husband and wife. Men should feel respected and admired, women loved like they are queens of their universe. Took us 11 yrs to figure this out, and we’re still working on it.

Who the heck is Robert James Waller?

 

[thewanderer]

Yes.
People being forced to submit is not the same as people willing submitting to some greater authority (such as men and women who join the marines and submit themselves to military discipline).

Good, I’m glad we agree. Are you willing to recognize, then that the church does not teach that women are to be forced to submit to their husbands simply because they are women? And that it is important to read what is written through the intention of the person who wrote it?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Did ANYBODY bother to read what I posted?! From the conversations that I have read thus far, I can only recommend that you STOP, be STILL and read it again. This is not an article it is my thumbnail referneced to a book Written by Dr. Tony Evans. There is also a companion book for Married men that is three principals for loving your wife. I have made a similar post here on that one. BELIEVE me, men have alot more duties to you than you will ever have to them. Most of you seem brain-washed along with most of the Western Culture due to the Women’s Liberation Movement, and the rest of the leftist **** that f-r-e-e-d you all exactly into WHAT?! Women had the power before they were taught to give it away to whoever you felt like, and once they were convinced that raising their children was not the most important job in the world, substitutes were found. Once the left broke the family apart, tradition stopped being handed down and garbage started coming in! Eleven days and I get to leave this jacked-up country; You all can have it, BELIEVE me! You are not men, you can not be men and you do not have the sense to realize that men do not want to be married to men.
I know that there are concious deceivers here in these chat rooms; But, let me assure you of one thing. God is not on trial, nor is His Bride…We are the ones on trial and I suggest you get very humble, very quickly!

Threats and insults…
I am not impressed, how about anyone else in the thread?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

PLEASE! Explain to me how two people can both have the final say? Your husband is responsible. You do not have to believe that. You BOTH are equal in dignity…you never had the same roles! If I could BE a mother, I would have adopted years ago!

Compromise, negotiation, etc.

 

[ryecroft]

Hardly gives license to excuse the wife’s responsibility, it was not a suggestion. It IS a commandment. God does not hear the prayers of a man that leaves a hurt on his woman’s heart. She IS His little girl, after all!

Which commandment would that be exactly? I don’t remember there being a “as wife thou shalt submit unto thy husband…” type of commandment -
and with all the crud I’ve done in my life, I’m amazed God still listens to me - so while I like the idea of God being angry at someone that would hurt a woman/his wife - I don’t think it’s any of our place to say that God will or won’t listen to someone’s prayers - If God hearing our prayers was based on track records, few of us would be on speaking terms with God. Obviously if God were NOT slow to anger we’d all be in a much worse situation (referring to Him not just being reactionary)

If a husband is truly sacrificing and loving the wife, then there should be NO need to say that wives need to submit - as has been mentioned, there would be ‘mutual’ submission - one spouse doing all they could to make the other spouse more comfortable, happier - more loved and taken care of. This was mentioned from a time over 2000 years ago when women literally had no choice BUT to submit to their husbands or fathers. I THANK GOD we no longer (at least in America) live in a society where this is acceptable. If you truly love your wife or husband as I have mentioned - I can’t really imagine a time where there SHOULD be a situation where the man would have to ‘take the lead’ and make a decision that went against his spouse. I’m not saying you have to agree on everything but if the love was like that then no one should be playing the trump card of submission. I agree - submission can be a good thing (example in bed - or as so many on here call it ‘the marital embrace’- but that’s not just for the wife).

God Bless
Rye

 

[AngryAtheist8]

No! 2+3=5 You have to have both to have 5. You are just different and anybody who has been married for more than a week KNOWS that men and women think differently.

Men know what they think

Women know how they feel

Women want to be the one and only

Men want to be respected

Are you saying women don’t know what they think (or perhaps don’t think at all)?

What was the point of this post?

 

[thewanderer]

The Church say that men and women are equal in human dignity. You can call yourself a Christian and make the same point. On average men make more than women because they tend to be in the workforce longer. My personal take on that old line is that it is simple propaganda. I have belonged to a labor union for the past twelve years and sex was not a requirement for wage; Job classification was. I have never seen a female make less in my experience, but, if you repeat a lie enough times, people will believe it. You can call yourself what you want; But, the whole idea behind the concious deceivers is to divide and conquer. This thread is a very good example of this as most commentators here never comprehended the point of the thread, it is sad. I thought both books were beautiful and want to hand them out to every married couple I know.

Guess what, I also call myself a Christian, and a Catholic! My whole point is that not everyone who uses the term ‘feminist’ is wrong in doing so, and that, while it has negative connotations to many, perhaps we should try to understand what it really means by seperating the negative connotations from the good in its essence?

I’m sorry that you are upset that people have not taken your thread the way it was intended. The problem is that this is a sticky situation to talk about because, as mentioned above, the oppression that has used ‘submission’ as its rationale. So feelings run high on this subject and you have to expect a lot of different responses if you post about it. Which is why it is more helpful to try and help them seperate the negative connotations of oppression from the real beauty of the idea of submission as properly understood.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I eat humble pie everyday being a mom and wife. I go without a lot for the happiness of my family. I am not submissive…it’s just not who I am. My family unit is working out great. I don’t need to be humbled.

You are very concerned with other people…just concentrate on your own journey and you’ll be a lot happier.

I am woman…hear me roar…well…my kids definitely hear it every now and then

One thing that doesn’t get considered much is that by labeling a whole group naturally dismissive, you essentially demean the sacrifice of people within that group who choose to submit to something greater than themselves.

If women are naturally submissive (as many claim) then there’s nothing particularly special about a woman submitting to the Church, her spouse, secular authorities, etc. regardless of the circumstances.
Because submission is viewed as a woman’s natural state.
According to that logic, a woman is not selflessly sacrificing her freedom or autonomy for some greater good but merely acting on instinct.

 

[judcargile]

Are you saying women don’t know what they think (or perhaps don’t think at all)?

What was the point of this post?

You will have to 1) make some kind of point that is substantial in some way however wrong it may be 2) Bring an IQ at least of the same level of room temperature 3) Read the original post, as I originated the thread and THAT IS the point. If you fail to meet the tasks, conditions and standards that I am incapable of making ANY clearer, I would be a fool to waste any further time with you, as I am already regreting that this is two minutes of my life that I can never get back.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Men, who are called to serve as husbands and fathers, I pray that you find these words and may the seeds be planted in the hearts of all men that will hear you. It was the destruction of the family that has destroyed this nation in the US and your virtue (Latin word meaning “to be a man.”) will break any sword.
You have the duty to serve, firstly your wife; yet, you do not know your role!
You are her Savior!
You are her Sanctifier!
You are her Satisfier!
Husbands love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church. Christ showed His love in SACRIFICE, SUFFERING and SUBSTITUTION.
Sacrificing for Your Wife by his command and example, He gave Himself up for The Holy Mother Church, The Bride of Christ! Your love should be cruciform-in the shape of a cross. It is NOT about wearing a crown and being King of our castle. He wore a crown of THORNS first and then the cross came before His glory! Is the sacrificial way you love your wife obvious in ANY way? Men love to rap, rap, rap about their love and sound SO impressive about how we are going to protect them and even die if need be. Who do you personally know anyone who has actually taken a bullet? Can you nail your desires and agenda to the cross and love our wives and meet her needs? The sacrifice has to go beyond words…she HAS to see you walk that walk!
To sanctify something is to set it apart from ordinary use for a special purpose. God takes ordinary objects and peoples and sanctifies them for His Glory. They are set apart from their past and unto the future He would wish for them. You made promises to your wife (or will) about her future, are you just parroting words? Again, the Bride of Christ, His Body, and The Church is disconnected from a past of sin and through His grace we are made obedient to His given law and will. The process of this transformation was manifested through His death and until you die to yourself and leave your worldly desires in the world you should be disconnected from, you are not the example that Christ gave; you are just talking a good talk! If a man does not work, he should not eat…seeing how Hollywood, the TV and the ‘street’ are the antithesis of the truth?
Satisfying the needs of your wife as Christ does for His Church is probably a little harder than any of us thought it would be. “C’mon, I had NO IDEA that she was THAT needy!” Well, you talked such a good game while you were trying to win her over…but, you did not realize that you were going to have to become a servant to learn how to become the leader. Christ washed the feet of His Apostles giving us the example to do as He has done. Do not wait around for your wives to serve you, set the example in your home by being the one who serves!

These are not arguments.
These are merely slogans and insults.
Moreover their not even new ones.
You just cut and pasted some stuff from the OP.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

The husband is responsible…regardless of his ability, interest or performance. You will not have to answer for it, HE will!

So the woman isn’t responsible for anything?
What if she’s single, does she have some responsibility then?

 

[judcargile]

Guess what, I also call myself a Christian, and a Catholic! My whole point is that not everyone who uses the term ‘feminist’ is wrong in doing so, and that, while it has negative connotations to many, perhaps we should try to understand what it really means by seperating the negative connotations from the good in its essence?

I’m sorry that you are upset that people have not taken your thread the way it was intended. The problem is that this is a sticky situation to talk about because, as mentioned above, the oppression that has used ‘submission’ as its rationale. So feelings run high on this subject and you have to expect a lot of different responses if you post about it. Which is why it is more helpful to try and help them seperate the negative connotations of oppression from the real beauty of the idea of submission as properly understood.

Ma’am,

Truth can only be an absolute; If what you thought or felt was right, was in fact right. There would be alot fewer accidental wrecks, electocutions, drownings, accidental shootings, ect. The danger is that until we let go of the small things that divide us, we will never come together as communities, nations, ect. again, the enemy wants to divide and conquer and it is not a small thing that the point of this thread is largely not being considered because some have “felt” it was going in the wrong direction; Especially, when you might consider that to understand the initial post would relieve them of their heavy, HEAVY burden that they needlessly carry!

 

[AngryAtheist8]

You are still taking it so negatively! I wonder if God’s definition is different than Webster?

I asked my wife over dinner last night what she thought it meant in the context in which it is written. Her first thought was that it’s main meaning is respect. I would have to agree with her on that. And if you really think that the next few verses that tell husbands how to love their wives doesn’t sound a tad like submission, then maybe you should think about how Christ loves his church some more!

My wife grew up protestant and she said that in the protestant churches, they never even mention the part about how husbands are supposed to love their wives…only the part about wives being submissive…but that’s ok…as Catholics, we don’t exactly agree with the way protestants interpret the Bible, do we?

I really must have missed the posts in this thread where people advocated wives bowing down and following their husbands every whim. Maybe someone can point them out so I know who everyone is arguing with…

Read the OP and the other posts by judcargile:shrug:

 

[judcargile]

So the woman isn’t responsible for anything?
What if she’s single, does she have some responsibility then?

She is responsible for her; I am being very generous here, start with the initial post and then you can busy yourself about being a troll and actually engage me with a relevant point. Is that less than fair?

 

[thewanderer]

Ma’am,

Truth can only be an absolute; If what you thought or felt was right, was in fact right. There would be alot fewer accidental wrecks, electocutions, drownings, accidental shootings, ect. The danger is that until we let go of the small things that divide us, we will never come together as communities, nations, ect. again, the enemy wants to divide and conquer and it is not a small thing that the point of this thread is largely not being considered because some have “felt” it was going in the wrong direction; Especially, when you might consider that to understand the initial post would relieve them of their heavy, HEAVY burden that they needlessly carry!

My point is that you are not going to be able to unite people unless you help them understand each other. If people have misconceptions it isn’t going to help them to just stand around showing them the same thing over and over again. Instead you need to figure out why they have a problem with what you are showing them, and kindly and charitably help them to see what it is that they are mistaken about.