Throwing infants against rocks ? Is it justified in the Bible?

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HomeschoolDad said:
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Mmarco:
I think you have missed my point; the problem is not forgiveness, but that we cannot be in communion with God as long as we have sinful desires in us. We must be sanctified and purified from all our evil and sinful desires. If God simply forgave us without changing our heart, we could not be in communion with Him.
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These are some interesting thoughts, but I’m not sure I’d go to the cross for them.
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Through His Passion, Christ reach the depths of our heart and comunicates to us the strength to trust God.
In fact, God has the power to change us but He wants to do that with our consent. In fact God has chosen to create man with a free will, He wants to respect our free will. Man cannot really accept to be changed by God and he cannot be in comunion with God as long as even a shadow of doubt and distrust remains in his heart ( it must be stressed that such a distrust may exist even without the man is aware of it, at the unconscious level).

In order to destroy every shadow of doubt and distrust in our heart, God has chosen to give us the greatest proof of love that may exist: Christ’s Passion. Christ’s Passion has redeemed us and reconciled us to God because it has uprooted from our heart our distrust and doubts about God’s love; it has satisfied our (conscious or unconscious) desire and need of a proof of love, so that it has given us the strength to trust God and feel loved by Him.
HomeschoolDad said:
I’d be interested in defining more closely “communion with God”.
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To have communion with God means to have a share in His Divine Life; God lives in us and we in Him. Let me quote some biblical verses:

John 15:4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.
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Good thoughts, but I certainly hope we can have some kind of “communion with God” in this life, even while still having sin and its aftereffects in us. I feel fairly confident that the Church teaches that we do have that kind of communion.
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As far as free will (and the contemporary pet notion of “conscience”), I commented upon this above, and shall not repeat it here.

Luther’s epithet of “Frau Jezebel” or “Frau Hulda” (not sure who this “Hulda” is supposed to be) was a fairly polite way of saying something much stronger about a seductress who would lead one away from truth and virtue, in his case reason, in my case “free will” and “conscience”.

Long ago, I gave back both “free will” and “conscience” to Almighty God, telling Him, in effect, “these things are just going to get me in trouble, please, Lord, take both back, I don’t want them, do with me as You will, direct my free will only to serve You, and direct my thoughts on matters of faith and morality in accord with Your Church’s magisterium”. Far from being stifling and frustrating, I actually find it very liberating.
 
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goout said:
You seem to have respect for God’s anger. Do you think God is angry when children are killed? How do envision the application of God’s anger in a way that is just? Does God’s anger benefit all people, or only some people?
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1. God’s Law is not ignored by His Mercy

God’s Law & Mercy upholds all of His creations. I respect both. All of us bound to follow His commands (His Law). If we obey, we are given reward according to our merit

Whenever we breach His Law, we offend Him and our neighbors. so then,we need His Mercy and our neighbor’s forgiveness. The latter is unmeritted favor. It is up to God & the person whom we offended to choose from their freewill to forgive.

Through The Law comes the knowledge of sins. Salvation comes through faith in God’s Grace. The latter cannot be forced on the victims. It is by choice.

Just like our baptism needs some kind of revelation of God in our life, faith cannot be forced on people. Otherwise, if we force it on people, it hurts communal social structure instead of bringing goodness, it offends the victim’s right.

2. Who is/ are the victim(s) of rape according to God’s Law?

Our history of salvation has always been according to paternal line. You can read from first page to the last page of your bible, you will find this is true.

Thus, according to God’s Law, if a woman is raped, unless she’s willing to marry the rapist, that fetus in her womb actually does not belong to her (because the fetus belongs to a man who is not her husband - the rapist).

So according to the law, both the rapist and his fetus are offensive to the woman victim.

However, if the woman feel compassion to the fetus, that is actually God’s Mercy for the “offender’s fetus” being revealed to her. If she out of her freewill receive it, then that fetus will live according to His Mercy. If her (future) husband willing to forgive it too, then it become his child, just as God the father adopt us as His children based on the forgiveness of sins. This is done not according to the law. This is according to unmeritted Grace/ Mercy/ Forgiveness. By free choice, not by law.
 
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JoyfulTune said:
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goout:
You seem to have respect for God’s anger. Do you think God is angry when children are killed? How do envision the application of God’s anger in a way that is just? Does God’s anger benefit all people, or only some people?
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1. God’s Law is not ignored by His Mercy
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Right. Exactly the point. You know the moral truth and are not willing to apply it.

What part of God’s law does not apply to killing small children?
 
how is it moral to force a woman who is slapped to give the other cheek?
 
goout said:
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JoyfulTune:
how is it moral to force a woman who is slapped to give the other cheek?
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How is it moral to kill a small child for the sins of someone else?
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So God in the OT was practicing immorality? Is this your interpretation of the bible?

You cannot be moral if you ignore God’s Law
 
I’d like to observe that your insistence on aborting the child as a solution to the rape victim’s suffering only hurts the victim’s cause further. It’s a false solution and it detracts from the hard work at hand that should aim at restoring real justice.

Killing the child perpetuates the injustice.
 
JoyfulTune said:
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goout:
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JoyfulTune:
how is it moral to force a woman who is slapped to give the other cheek?
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How is it moral to kill a small child for the sins of someone else?
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So God in the OT was practicing immorality? Is this your interpretation of the bible?

You cannot be moral if you ignore God’s Law
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What in the world are you talking about?
You actually believe God condones the killing of children as a way to give justice to others?
 
goout said:
I’d like to observe that your insistence on aborting the child as a solution to the rape victim’s suffering only hurts the victim’s cause further. It’s a false solution and it detracts from the hard work at hand that should aim at restoring real justice.

Killing the child perpetuates the injustice.
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It is not “my insistance on aborting”.

I know that as one of the on-lookers, I can only pray and avengelize to her. It is up to her (and her family) to decide what to to.
 
goout said:
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JoyfulTune:
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goout:
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JoyfulTune:
how is it moral to force a woman who is slapped to give the other cheek?
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How is it moral to kill a small child for the sins of someone else?
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So God in the OT was practicing immorality? Is this your interpretation of the bible?

You cannot be moral if you ignore God’s Law
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What in the world are you talking about?
You actually believe God condones the killing of children as a way to give justice to others?
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Read the op. Explain Psalms 137:9 according to you
 
goout said:
a false solution and it detracts from the hard work at hand that should aim at restoring real justice.

Killing the child perpetuates the injustice
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This is only subjective human logic. The bible disagree to this opinion.

One cannot be a catholic if he does not believe in the bible, can he?
 
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JoyfulTune said:
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goout:
a false solution and it detracts from the hard work at hand that should aim at restoring real justice.

Killing the child perpetuates the injustice
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This is only subjective human logic. The bible disagree to this opinion.

One cannot be a catholic if he does not believe in the bible, can he?
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How is the moral imperative to not kill an innocent child subjective human logic?
Show us where the bible condones killing an innocent child to provide justice for someone else.

the burden of proof is on you here.

Your desire to help rape victims should not cause you to abandon common sense morality.
 
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Please re-read the op, and also all bible quotes on the other thread (Problem with catholic church teaching on abortion in case of rape). I have put all the bible quotes there
 
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JoyfulTune said:
Please re-read the op, and also all bible quotes on the other thread (problem with catholic teaching on rape). I have put all the bible quotes there
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Show us the bible passage whereby God condones killing small children to provide justice for someone else.
 
JoyfulTune said:
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goout:
Show us the bible passage whereby God condones killing small children to provide justice for someone else.
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Psalms 137:8-9
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It’s incomprehensible that you should read this to support your position that God condones the killing of small children to satisfy justice for someone else.

This is one passage of the bible in isolation. And it takes leaps of extrapolation to come to the conclusion that you have drawn.

You have a tissue thin foundation for believe that God condones killing small children to bring justice to others.
And the position you are taking does not bring clarity or urgency to the plight of rape victims because it offers false solutions.
 
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JoyfulTune said:
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goout:
common sense morality.
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You admit that your morality is only common sense. Mine biblical
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Show us where God in the bible condones killing small children as a just action.
You have not done it. Your position is bankrupt, and it brings further injustice to the plight of victims.
 
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