Thus Saith the Lord and LDS "Prophets"

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…exegesis of the following verses of D&C:

*And also with Michael, or Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days; *(D&C 27:11)

Spring Hill is named by the Lord Adam-ondi-Ahman, because, said he, it is the place where Adam shall come to visit his people, or the Ancient of Days shall sit, as spoken of by Daniel the prophet. (D&C 116:11; cf. Dan 7)

Spring Hill is named by the Lord Adam-ondi-Ahman, because, said he, it is the place where Adam shall come to visit his people, or the Ancient of Days shall sit, as spoken of by Daniel the prophet. (D&C 138:38)

If Brigham Young had never spoken a single word in reference to Adam-God, these three verses, accepted as Scripture by all Latter-day Saints, would consolidate the case on their own merits. “Ancient of Days” is an Aramaic title for God, and is used that way in Daniel 7, as well as in 1 Enoch, another apocalyptic text that has obvious literary influence on both Daniel and Jude. The title “Ancient of Days” does not occur throughout the Bible, because only Dan 7 is written in Aramaic, and the phrase has no cognate in Hebrew. Yet it represents an Ancient Near Eastern tradition that goes back as far as pre-Biblical Ugaritic literature that refers to the chief Canaanite God as “Father of Years.” Moreover, the enthroned figure of God in Revelation is clearly modeled on the Ancient of Days in Daniel. … I know of no reason why anyone should deny that the Ancient of Days is God apart from ignorance of the evidence.
Soren1,
Surely you are aware that the LDS believe that there has been more than one “apostasy” on the earth during its history. Whether an Aramaic tradition is such or such does not establish revealed truth.

D & C 27 speaks of Michael as Adam, and Michael is the archangel is referenced in Revelation 12:7 and in Jude 1:7, wherein there is no mistaking that Michael the archangel is not the same as the Lord or God.

If you happen to have the reference, I would be interested to read the full text of your source about the statement I had never seen regarding “the Ancient of Days is God” which you said BY said. If you could cite the source, I will look it up.
 
…In order to expose and uproot it, a distinction must be made between two types of questions. These are:
  1. Is doctrine X an official Mormon teaching?
  2. Does doctrine X test the prophetic authority of the prophet who taught it?
Every version of Mormon minimalism that I have encountered depends on confusing these two questions, avoiding question #2 by reducing everything to question #1. Yet in most cases of controversial LDS teachings, the question that matters is #2, and the answer to that question does not always depend on the answer to #1. This is because the Bible provides legal guidelines for the testing of prophets that make no distinctions between a prophet’s official pronouncements and personal opinions. One plain example is Deut 13:1-3:

If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

This is a legal text, and it gives no wiggle room for personal opinions or speculation. The mere fact that LDS prophets have taught conflicting teachings about the identity of God brings this passage to bear on their authority; the distinction between official and unofficial teaching has no relevance to the application of this law.
Soren1,
The text of Deuteronomy 13:2-3 applies more readily to the kinds of “miracles” I have seen people talk about on this website than it does to an erroneous teaching of Brigham Young. A “sign” or a “wonder” are specific words with specific meanings, having to do with something attributed to be miraculous and using that supposed “miracle” as “proof” that the person was a spiritual person or a “saint”. If you want to talk about Deuteronomy 13:2-3, then that is the discussion that should ensue. (But I really don’t want to go there, as that would enter into terrain that becomes so emotional that no sensible discussion can be held.)
 
ParkerD,


The first, weakest argument I hit upon is that Young says, “doctrines” in the plural, which means he refers to more than just the sentence immediately preceding. It embraces all that Young has been saying, including the statement that Michael “is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do.”
Soren1,
No, the word “doctrines” has to do with the revealed teachings of Joseph Smith, as I previously explained. There was more than one “doctrine” revealed through Joseph Smith, and BY’s entire talk actually highlighted several of those revealed doctrines and talked about the apostasy in the world that had changed the doctrines.

The statement you included here was not in that talk, at all. I read the entire talk when I first responded to you, by looking it up online.
 
ParkerD,

Thus I have no motive to obfuscate consciously. I will now show that I have not obfuscated even accidentally, by demonstrating my correct use of the text you claim I pulled out of context. I quoted Young as teaching with reference to Adam-God, “Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation.” Yet you point to the sentence immediately preceding, which reads, “Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven.” Since Elohim was also in Eden, this is actually an orthodox statement.

I once thought as you do. Before the first time I ever quoted this passage, I hesitated on the basis of just this objection. Because both Michael and Elohim are called “father” in the sermon, both are in heaven, and since both were in fact in Eden, it is not at once obvious whether the Father in Heaven “that was in the garden of Eden” is Michael or Elohim. But further research revealed significant reasons to favor reading it in reference to Adam.

The first, weakest argument I hit upon is that Young says, “doctrines” in the plural, which means he refers to more than just the sentence immediately preceding. It embraces all that Young has been saying, including the statement that Michael “is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do.” This argument is good but indecisive, because Wilford Woodruff records the same text in his journal without the word “doctrines.”

A second reason adds a little more to the case: the context gives more weight to reading it as Michael, because he is the only male person spoken of as being in Eden elsewhere in the sermon: “When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him.” Again, this is a good reason, but not compelling.

The more powerful reason, the one the really persuades me, is that external witnesses support understanding it in reference to Adam. Other prominent Mormons, including Apostles, understood it in reference to Adam and Young did not attempt to correct them. Hosea’s Stout’s Journal that evening records, “Another meeting this evening. President B. Young taught that Adam was the father of Jesus and the only God to us. That he came to this world in a resurrected body, etc. More hereafter.” The same view can be found in a number of diaries written that night, including Woodruff’s, who quotes Heber C. Kimball reporting Young’s teaching as “Jesus Christ was his [Peter’s] God and the God and Father of Jesus Christ was Adam.” Samuel H. Rogers recorded that Young “said that Adam was the onley God that we would have, and that Christ was not begotten of the Holy Gost, but of the Father Adam, that Christ, was our elder brother.” No minority report exists to effect that it was Elohim, as distinct from Adam, who begat Jesus in the flesh. They all understood Young to mean that Adam begat Jesus.

As this point, I could hardly be charged for obfuscation for maintaining a view that agrees with all of Young’s firsthand hearers whose impressions of the sermon have been passed down to us. Of course, it is a seriously possibility that they all got it wrong, since Young just didn’t make it clear enough. If he spoke vaguely, they could have misheard him then in just the same way that I misread him today. The problem with that idea is that Young did not seek to correct anyone’s misunderstandings, even when the opponents of Adam-God repeated and then criticized the same interpretation of his words. Young’s persistence can be confirmed by another journal entry in Feb 1854, which shows that almost two full years later, Young had not disabused him of the mistake, but was continuing to reinforce that same understanding: “He (B.Y.) said that our God was Father Adam. He was the Father of the Savior Jesus Christ—Our God was no more or less than ADAM, Michael the Archangel.” I find this kind of report more persuasive than any transcript of a sermon, because it comes from someone’s conversations with Young, someone who knew him over the course of years, during which Young could have clarified such basic misunderstandings. Points of legitimate uncertainty that arise from the JOD transcript alone are firmed up in light of such evidence.

That is a taste of the kind of evidence that underlies my reading of the text from Young’s Address which you deem obfuscatory (Is that a real word?). Compared to your analogy about the stock market, I would say my reading has been rigorous.
Soren1,
With all that clarification, I can see why you have formed the opinion you formed, but the text of the talk in question did not have the contradictions in terms that those journal entries had. I have agreed that Brigham Young had a concept in his mind that was either taught very poorly or was outright wrong. I don’t need to defend it, at all. It was not brought forward through the proper channel as to being authoritative and binding upon anyone, even though BY seems to have thought he had that authority. This is called being stubborn and not caring that Doctrine and Covenants 107 taught him to seek the united counsel and agreement of the Twelve and the First Presidency before taking a decision forward as authoritatively binding, and even then it would need to be voted upon by the members in order for it to become an accepted doctrinal change, after those principles were established by Joseph Smith by revelation.
 
ParkerD,

The best argument you have is the long passage where Young talks about the paternity of Elohim. Your position here seems to be that since Young gave such importance to Elohim as Father, then Elohim, not Adam, is the Father in Heaven in the sentence preceding the one I quoted. I have no trouble reconciling Young’s teachings on Elohim with his teachings on Adam, because he treats both as father in different respects, Elohim as the father of spirits, and Adam as the Father of the human race and of Christ according to the flesh. My best understanding of the Adam-God doctrine is as follows: While Elohim is the Spirit-Father of Michael, Jehovah, and all humanity, nevertheless Adam is the Father of Jesus and first progenitor of mankind according to the flesh, and so their relationship in that respect is Grandfather, Father, and Son. In the Creation, Elohim gave the presidency over the world into Michael’s hands as the first holder of the priesthood, so that he has rule over all Creation. As a result, it is from Adam’s hands, not from Elohim’s that Christ receives dominion and glory, and it is Adam whom Christ in turn glorifies by delivering to him the kingdom. None of this constitutes a denial of Elohim’s spiritual paternity, but it justifies Adam “as the only God with whom we have to do,” since he is the ultimate judge of all to whom Christ’s sacrifice for us is offered. When we stand before the judgment seat, Michael will be sitting in it, and we will be judged on the basis of whether we have truly served him. Michael’s exaltation is possible because he already had a resurrected body when he came to earth. In my judgment, to treat Michael as the ultimate object of human service constitutes worship of him, and Young has instructed his followers to worship a different God, whom they had not known. The song I quoted from the 1848 hymnal shows no less.

You have to do a lot of reading in Young to put all these pieces together, but this is best synthesis I have yet arrived at. It resolves the most glaring contradictions into harmony and it has the special virtue of being warranted from the teachings of Joseph Smith, to whom Young was fiercely loyal. Consider the following First Presidency Message of July 1839:

Daniel in his seventh chapter speaks of the Ancient of Days; he means the oldest man, our Father Adam, Michael, he will call his children together and hold a council with them to prepare them for the coming of the Son of Man. He (Adam) is the father of the human family, and presides over the spirits of all men, and all that have had the keys must stand before him in this grand council. This may take place before some of us leave this stage of action. The Son of Man stands before him, and there is given him glory and dominion. Adam delivers up his stewardship to Christ, that which was delivered to him as holding the keys of the universe, but retains his standing as head of the human family. [Context here.]

This doesn’t say quite as much as Young does, but the basic pieces are already in place right here. What Young has done is radicalize Smith’s teaching, not by adding to it materially, but by drawing out its logical implications, contained in it already. The idea that forms the bridge from Smith to Young is that if Christ gets his dominion and glory from Adam, and if it is divine dominion and glory the he gets, then Adam is divine too. In ruling over us as priest, he also rules as God. “With whom we have to do” comes from a bad translation in the KJV of a phrase better rendered as “to whom we have to give an account.” Young quotes this verse according to the KJV text, but he uses it in ways that reflect a correct understanding of its true exegesis. It is therefore to Adam and not to Elohim, that we are to understand the following verse:

And before him no creature is hidden, but all are naked and laid bare to the eyes of the one to whom we must render an account. (Heb 4:13, NRSV)
Soren1,
If Adam is “the father of Christ according to the flesh” then that means there was a literal ancestry from Adam through David and through Mary, which I agree with and have recently reiterated in another thread.

The following is a clear text which you quoted:

Daniel in his seventh chapter speaks of the Ancient of Days; he means the oldest man, our Father Adam, Michael, he will call his children together and hold a council with them to prepare them for the coming of the Son of Man. He (Adam) is the father of the human family, and presides over the spirits of all men, and all that have had the keys must stand before him in this grand council. This may take place before some of us leave this stage of action. The Son of Man stands before him, and there is given him glory and dominion. Adam delivers up his stewardship to Christ, that which was delivered to him as holding the keys of the universe, but retains his standing as head of the human family. [Context here.]

The only change I would make to the above is to insert the word “thus” as the first word of the last sentence, to clarify that the preceding sentence was talking about Christ receiving His rightful glory and dominion by the act of being given the keys from Adam, so that Christ could begin the triumphant winding up scenes with all of the keys having been centralized into His hands. It is symbolic that the sealing ordinances that need to be completed through the designated holders of the keys ultimately are tied to the power Christ holds as the Redeemer and Deliverer.
 
Parker D,

This response is a new argument, different from the one you made earlier. Your main line of reasoning before was scriptural, using a text from D&C 107. I answered that text because your argument was from the text. Now you are going a different route and arguing from your own experience of how the modern church does things. This is an appeal to tradition rather than to the actual sources of revelation. Yet this ignores the nature of my original objection.

One of my points about D&C 107 is that it is a practical document pertaining to decisions about how to attain good ends, not the discernment of what is or is not revealed. An appeal to modern church governance hardly begins to address that. As for the revelation of 1978, it would only be relevant it it showed that the unanimous consent of the quorums was necessary to constitute the Declaration as inspired. But that cannot be the case. Consider another addition to Mormon Scripture, Joseph’s Smith’s Civil War prophecy in D&C 87. That text sat around in Brigham Young’s back pocket until the Civil War started, since he didn’t know what to make of it. When it seemed to him that Joseph’s prophecy was going to be fulfilled, he met with the quorums and added it to D&C. Do you think that means that D&C 87 was not inspired until the 1860s? No, of course, not. Their decision was to include it in D&C, a decision that falls within the provenance of D&C 107, but as to whether it was inspired, that determination comes from the intrinsic nature of the text itself, and is not a matter of human decision.

Your view of LDS authority is anachronistic, and was not seen as true in the early LDS Church, since after all, it has no support in revelation itself. Why is modern LDS tradition superior to the old tradition? What is there, beside chronological snobbery and unsupportable assertions about one text in D&C to reject the view represented in the following journal entry by Wilford Woodruff about Orson Pratt’s rejection of the Adam-God doctrine:

. . . met with the Regency in the evening. The time was occupied till 10 o’clock writing lessons upon the black board. Then the subject was brought up concerning Adam being made of the dust of the earth, and Elder Orson Pratt pursued a course of stubbornness & unbelief in what President Young said that will destroy him if he does not repent & turn from his evil ways. For when any man crosses the track of a leader in Israel & tries to lead the prophet–he is no longer led by him but is in danger of falling. (March 11, 1856)
Soren1,
On the contrary, the application of the principles detailed in D & C 107 with respect to “united counsel and consent” (my term to describe the principle) has become better understood and better practiced since the days of BY, but that is completely logical since BY had had only the precedence of how the LDS church was led by the president during the days of Joseph Smith. In other words, BY did not have a sufficient basis to have understood the principle, but that does not make the principle non-applicable. It means BY thought he had the same “single prevailing authority” as Joseph Smith (perhaps, I can assume from how he did things)–but that was incorrect based on D & C 107. It was something the Twelve and the First Presidency needed to learn, and some things are learned by going through a process that is an imperfect and bumpy process.

True enough that your closing quote here is correct in that a person who places themselves in a position of “leading the prophet” (which is not the same as disagreeing with him), can easily be “in danger of falling.” But the Quorum of the Twelve and the First Presidency can disagree and not a one of them be “in danger of falling” so long as they seek the Spirit, seek guidance from the Lord and from the scriptures, and present their differences still in a spirit of unity and meekness. The “unity of the faith” and being “one” as described in the New Testament yield the same principle; here with the Twelve and the First Presidency it should be “perfected”, and certainly the principle would be expected to become more fully understood as the church moved from “infancy” to “adolescence” and from adolescence to a mature church with all the revealed doctrines in place and functioning.

Again, the Twelve and the First Presidency of today teach this principle on an ongoing basis. I have heard it as late as last week in a personal setting which I don’t need to disclose, nor should I.
 
. . . . .. . . . .The Son of Man stands before him, and there is given him glory and dominion. Adam delivers up his stewardship to Christ, that which was delivered to him as holding the keys of the universe, but retains his standing as head of the human family. [Context here.]
. . . . .insert the word “thus” as the first word of the last sentence, to clarify that the preceding sentence was talking about Christ receiving His rightful glory and dominion by the act of being given the keys from Adam, so that Christ could begin the triumphant winding up scenes with all of the keys having been centralized into His hands. It is symbolic that the sealing ordinances that need to be completed through the designated holders of the keys ultimately are tied to the power Christ holds as the Redeemer and Deliverer.
I do not believe Adam presides over the spirits of men; or that he holds a stewardship or keys to deliver to Christ. The idea that Christ will stand before Adam to receive anything is offensive to the Gospel, and points to the Adam/God idea. Death came through Adam, and life came through the Christ.

Catholic Catechism:
635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."485 Jesus, “the Author of life”, by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage."486 Henceforth the risen Christ holds “the keys of Death and Hades”, so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."487
Code:
Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, **he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him - He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . .** "I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead."488
1 Corinthians 15:
20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 **Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. **
The risen Christ has already conquered evil. All authority has already been committed to Christ. He is not waiting for Adam to hand over the keys.
Hebrews 2 (ESV):
5 **Now it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking. **6 It has been testified somewhere,
Code:
"What is man, that you are mindful of him,
or the son of man, that you care for him?
7 You made him for a little while lower than the angels;
you have crowned him with glory and honor,
8 putting everything in subjection under his feet."
**Matthew 28 (ESV): **
16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Ephesians 1:
20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church,
1 Peter 3:
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

A caution from Holy Scripture that all of us do well to remember:
Colossians 2:
8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.

Anna
 
I do not believe Adam presides over the spirits of men; or that he holds a stewardship or keys to deliver to Christ. The idea that Christ will stand before Adam to receive anything is offensive to the Gospel, and points to the Adam/God idea. Death came through Adam, and life came through the Christ.

The risen Christ has already conquered evil. All authority has already been committed to Christ. He is not waiting for Adam to hand over the keys.

Anna
Anna,
I want you to know that I appreciate your having pointed out those New Testament passages, since I agree with them and need to clarify the concept about Adam.

Adam received a stewardship that related to the family of man. He was to raise up a righteous posterity, with love and with exercise of authority without also destroying or reducing free will choice among his posterity.

The LDS belief is that Adam received the priesthood, that after he fell he was baptized and received the Holy Spirit, and that he lived righteously in the mortal period of his life, along with Eve. Seth became his righteous son who followed his righteous example (and actually looked like Adam).

I agree that Christ has all power and authority over this earth. Temporarily, keys have been given to priesthood holders at certain points in time on the earth, but Christ never stopped also holding those keys–they were allowed to be held jointly.

The scene described where Adam will receive the keys from various prophets and leaders who had received keys while they were on the earth and served in priesthood capacities, and will then give them to Christ, is symbolic that he (Adam) has finished his stewardship or in other words, his assignment to raise up a righteous posterity for Heavenly Father. That assignment was given to Adam to glorify Heavenly Father and the Savior–who upheld the Father’s plan and became the Redeemer since that was part of the plan that allowed Adam’s posterity to grow and progress through making choices and gaining experience through making those choices.

So for Adam to “give keys” to Christ does not mean Christ didn’t already hold those keys. It is a representation of finishing a stewardship assignment from Christ, who receives the glory from the Father at that point for having “placed all things under His feet” and having truly conquered all evil on this earth (meaning it will be gone), as you noted Christ does and will do.

I of course know you would not agree with any of this. We differ profoundly in our view of Adam, in that LDS view him as a man who became righteous through the Savior’s atoning grace, and was given a stewardship over his posterity which he will one day completely fulfill through the power and grace of Christ.
 
I of course know you would not agree with any of this.
Since none were made priests until Israel existed, this is of course not a matter of disagreement, but a matter of fact. Adam was not a priest.
 
Apparently you missed Anna’s point. Christ is King, and has conquered sin and death. He reigns now and isn’t waiting for anyone to give Him anything, as the Father has given Him all glory and honor.

Adam is dead, and does not reign over the living or the dead.
 
Apparently you missed Anna’s point. Christ is King, and has conquered sin and death. He reigns now and isn’t waiting for anyone to give Him anything, as the Father has given Him all glory and honor.

Adam is dead, and does not reign over the living or the dead.
Thank you, RebeccaJ!!

Anna
 
Can you provide Biblical support for your beliefs about Adam? I’m sorry if they were provided and I missed them–if that’s the case, just point me to your posts.
Adam received a stewardship that related to the family of man. He was to raise up a righteous posterity, with love and with exercise of authority without also destroying or reducing free will choice among his posterity.
The LDS belief is that Adam received the priesthood, that after he fell he was baptized and received the Holy Spirit, and that he lived righteously in the mortal period of his life, along with Eve. Seth became his righteous son who followed his righteous example (and actually looked like Adam).
I agree that Christ has all power and authority over this earth. Temporarily, keys have been given to priesthood holders at certain points in time on the earth, but Christ never stopped also holding those keys–they were allowed to be held jointly.
The scene described where Adam will receive the keys from various prophets and leaders who had received keys while they were on the earth and served in priesthood capacities, and will then give them to Christ, is symbolic that he (Adam) has finished his stewardship or in other words, his assignment to raise up a righteous posterity for Heavenly Father. That assignment was given to Adam to glorify Heavenly Father and the Savior–who upheld the Father’s plan and became the Redeemer since that was part of the plan that allowed Adam’s posterity to grow and progress through making choices and gaining experience through making those choices.
So for Adam to “give keys” to Christ does not mean Christ didn’t already hold those keys. It is a representation of finishing a stewardship assignment from Christ, who receives the glory from the Father at that point for having “placed all things under His feet” and having truly conquered all evil on this earth (meaning it will be gone), as you noted Christ does and will do.
I of course know you would not agree with any of this. We differ profoundly in our view of Adam, in that LDS view him as a man who became righteous through the Savior’s atoning grace, and was given a stewardship over his posterity which he will one day completely fulfill through the power and grace of Christ.
Also, please provide Biblical support for the LDS claim that Adam is Michael the Archangel and the Ancient of Days.
. . . . .Daniel in his seventh chapter speaks of the Ancient of Days; he means the oldest man, our Father Adam, Michael, he will call his children together and hold a council with them to prepare them for the coming of the Son of Man. . . . .
In orthodox Christianity, “The Ancient of Days” is clearly known to be God.

Catholic Encyclopedia
Link: newadvent.org/cathen/01463a.htm
Ancient of Days
A name given to God by the Prophet Daniel (7:9, 7:13, 7:22), in which he contrasts His eternal powers with the frail existence of the empires of the world. It is from these descriptions of the Almighty that Christian art derived its general manner of representing the first person of the Holy Trinity. Ancient of Days is expressed in Aramaic by Atiq yomin; in the Greek Septuagint by palaios hemeron; and in the Vulgate by Antiquus dierum.
Also, How can Adam be both human and angel? Angels are “non-corporeal beings.”

Catholic Catechism:
I. THE ANGELS
The existence of angels - a truth of faith
328 The existence of the spiritual, non-corporeal beings that Sacred Scripture usually calls “angels” is a truth of faith. The witness of Scripture is as clear as the unanimity of Tradition.
330 As purely spiritual creatures angels have intelligence and will: they are personal and immortal creatures, surpassing in perfection all visible creatures, as the splendor of their glory bears witness.190
Parker, I realize we are veering off topic here. However, as you explain the LDS view of authority and prophets; these other subjects come up.

I do think our definition of a “prophet of God” is entirely different; and our view of the identity of Adam and Christ is entirely different, as is the relationship between them.

However, I don’t find the discussion without merit. You have provided a better understanding of LDS beliefs. It’s just the deeper you go; the less Biblical LDS beliefs appear. I do not intend for my conclusions to be disrespectful. I just don’t know how you can justify your beliefs through the Holy Bible.

Anna
 
🙂

I didn’t see the point of the long explanation of LDS mythology surrounding Adam, or for that matter, why it is even needed.
I posted just after you.

The LDS mythology, though tedious, is actually very revealing in its lack of Biblical support.
. . . . .However, I don’t find the discussion without merit. You have provided a better understanding of LDS beliefs. It’s just the deeper you go; the less Biblical LDS beliefs appear. I do not intend for my conclusions to be disrespectful. I just don’t know how you can justify your beliefs through the Holy Bible.
It does take far too much energy. The outcome of the Mormon discussions never comes with a surprise ending.

I really need to get back to my writing.

Anna
 
Anna,
I want you to know that I appreciate your having pointed out those New Testament passages, since I agree with them and need to clarify the concept about Adam.

Adam received a stewardship that related to the family of man. He was to raise up a righteous posterity, with love and with exercise of authority without also destroying or reducing free will choice among his posterity.

The LDS belief is that Adam received the priesthood, that after he fell he was baptized and received the Holy Spirit, and that he lived righteously in the mortal period of his life, along with Eve. Seth became his righteous son who followed his righteous example (and actually looked like Adam).

Actually, the belief of Adam is a moving target. First, Adam was God and Eve was one of his wives from another planet. Then Adam was the Angel Michael. Strange.

I agree that Christ has all power and authority over this earth. Temporarily, keys have been given to priesthood holders at certain points in time on the earth, but Christ never stopped also holding those keys–they were allowed to be held jointly.

That can’t be true. If Christ was all-powerful, there would not have been an apostasy. For Mormons, Christ was a weak god who lied to his followers about the gates of hell never prevailing.

The scene described where Adam will receive the keys from various prophets and leaders who had received keys while they were on the earth and served in priesthood capacities, and will then give them to Christ, is symbolic that he (Adam) has finished his stewardship or in other words, his assignment to raise up a righteous posterity for Heavenly Father. That assignment was given to Adam to glorify Heavenly Father and the Savior–who upheld the Father’s plan and became the Redeemer since that was part of the plan that allowed Adam’s posterity to grow and progress through making choices and gaining experience through making those choices.

Which Adam…the the “only God with whhom we have to do” or Adam the angel Michael?

So for Adam to “give keys” to Christ does not mean Christ didn’t already hold those keys. It is a representation of finishing a stewardship assignment from Christ, who receives the glory from the Father at that point for having “placed all things under His feet” and having truly conquered all evil on this earth (meaning it will be gone), as you noted Christ does and will do.

Adam gives the keys to Christ because apparently Adam is still God.
 
Can you provide Biblical support for your beliefs about Adam? I’m sorry if they were provided and I missed them–if that’s the case, just point me to your posts.

Also, please provide Biblical support for the LDS claim that Adam is Michael the Archangel and the Ancient of Days.

In orthodox Christianity, “The Ancient of Days” is clearly known to be God.

Also, How can Adam be both human and angel? Angels are “non-corporeal beings.”

Parker, I realize we are veering off topic here. However, as you explain the LDS view of authority and prophets; these other subjects come up.

I do think our definition of a “prophet of God” is entirely different; and our view of the identity of Adam and Christ is entirely different, as is the relationship between them.

However, I don’t find the discussion without merit. You have provided a better understanding of LDS beliefs. It’s just the deeper you go; the less Biblical LDS beliefs appear. I do not intend for my conclusions to be disrespectful. I just don’t know how you can justify your beliefs through the Holy Bible.

Anna
Anna,
I’ll give fairly brief responses:
  1. Adam’s stewardship related to his posterity and Eve and to the earth: Genesis 1:27-28; 2:22-24; 4:25-26; 5:1-4.
  2. See 1 above. Also see Genesis 5:22-23 about Enoch, Adam’s really righteous descendant who learned from Seth and from Adam and from God since he “walked with God”.
  3. If one doesn’t know that Christ gave keys to priesthood holders on earth who were leaders, then means one hasn’t even started to understand the Bible. Catholics dwell on the keys Peter held, but that doesn’t mean he was the only one who ever was given keys.
4-6) These posts relate to Adam being the Ancient of Days seen in vision by Daniel, though Daniel wasn’t given the interpretation during or after his vision. He was told “none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.” It is clear that the understanding relates to the “end times”(Daniel 12:10; see also Daniel 7)

Thus I would say that those who are “wise” will understand at the point in time that God wants them to and they ask for that understanding.

I do like that Catholics accept one depiction at least of God the Father with a body based on their belief that the Ancient of days as described in Daniel 7:9 is God the Father, since that passage describes a physical body that can be seen and described.

But the LDS belief is that the description in that verse is of Adam as the “Ancient of days”, the belief having come by revelation to Joseph Smith, and confirmed by individual personal revelation through the gift of the Holy Ghost. It is clear from Daniel 12:8-10 that the Bible was not supposed to give the interpretation of Daniel’s vision about the Ancient of days and about all the kings and about aspects of the “end times” that were part of his vision.

I know that will be frustrating, but that’s about the size of it.

The LDS belief is that Michael as the archangel was certainly a non-corporeal being, but became Adam as the first man on the earth. God had a bigger plan that just placing Adam and Eve here and watching them fall and then sort of picking up the pieces through Christ. The LDS belief is that the plan of salvation really was known by God all along.👍
 
Also, How can Adam be both human and angel? Angels are “non-corporeal beings.”
Not in Mormonism. In Mormonism, “angels” are resurrected humans. That’s one of the many redefined words that makes discussion with Mormons so difficult.

For instance, in Mormonism, Gabriel is the resurrected Noah. Mormonism claims that Noah’s pre-mortal name was Gabriel, as Adam’s pre-mortal name was Michael (the archangel).
 
Answer to ParkerD: Part 1 of 2
1). . . . .Adam’s stewardship related to his posterity and Eve and to the earth: Genesis 1:27-28; 2:22-24; 4:25-26; 5:1-4.
Genesis 1 (ESV): 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
28And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
Genesis 2: 22 And the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. 23Then the man said,“This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.” 24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
Genesis 4: 25And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and called his name Seth, for she said, “God has appointed for me another offspring instead of Abel, for Cain killed him.” 26To Seth also a son was born, and he called his name Enosh. At that time people began to call upon the name of the LORD.
**Genesis 5: **1This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. 2Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created. 3When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. 4 The days of Adam after he fathered Seth were 800 years; and he had other sons and daughters.
  1. See 1 above. Also see Genesis 5:22-23 about Enoch, Adam’s really righteous descendant who learned from Seth and from Adam and from God since he “walked with God”.
Genesis 5: 22Enoch walked with God after he fathered Methuselah 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23Thus all the days of Enoch were 365 years.
Adam received a stewardship that related to the family of man. He was to raise up a righteous posterity, with love and with exercise of authority without also destroying or reducing free will choice among his posterity.
None of the passages of Scripture you cited say that Adam was to “raise up a righteous posterity” or that he was to “do this without destroying or reducing free will choice among his posterity.” You are attributing God’s power and authority to Adam. God does the raising up. God created free will. Adam has no authority to destroy or reduce free will. These arguments are not helping your claim that LDS do not believe Adam is god.
The LDS belief is that Adam received the priesthood, that after he fell he was baptized and received the Holy Spirit, and that he lived righteously in the mortal period of his life, along with Eve. Seth became his righteous son who followed his righteous example (and actually looked like Adam).

Where does the Bible say, Adam received the priesthood? or After Adam fell, he was baptized and received the Holy Spirit? or Adam lived righteously in the mortal period of his life?

There are no passages in the Bible to support your claim that Adam was given the Priesthood.

The Old Testament speaks of Melchizedek, who prefigured the Priesthood of Christ; and the Levitical Priesthood.
Genesis 14:
 
Answer to ParkerD: Part 2 of 2
The scene described where Adam will receive the keys from various prophets and leaders who had received keys while they were on the earth and served in priesthood capacities, and will then give them to Christ, is symbolic that he (Adam) has finished his stewardship or in other words, his assignment to raise up a righteous posterity for Heavenly Father.
  1. If one doesn’t know that Christ gave keys to priesthood holders on earth who were leaders, then means one hasn’t even started to understand the Bible. Catholics dwell on the keys Peter held, but that doesn’t mean he was the only one who ever was given keys.
All I’m asking is that you provide Biblical proof that Adam was ever given the “keys.”
4-6) These posts relate to Adam being the Ancient of Days seen in vision by Daniel, though Daniel wasn’t given the interpretation during or after his vision. He was told “none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.” It is clear that the understanding relates to the “end times”(Daniel 12:10; see also Daniel 7)

Thus I would say that those who are “wise” will understand at the point in time that God wants them to and they ask for that understanding.
With the lack of Biblical proof that Adam is the Ancient of Days; this is one of very few response options.
I do like that Catholics accept one depiction at least of God the Father with a body based on their belief that the Ancient of days as described in Daniel 7:9 is God the Father, since that passage describes a physical body that can be seen and described.
But the LDS belief is that the description in that verse is of Adam as the “Ancient of days”, the belief having come by revelation to Joseph Smith, and confirmed by individual personal revelation through the gift of the Holy Ghost. It is clear from Daniel 12:8-10 that the Bible was not supposed to give the interpretation of Daniel’s vision about the Ancient of days and about all the kings and about aspects of the “end times” that were part of his vision.
I’ll defer to Catholic forum members to speak to this issue.
I know that will be frustrating, but that’s about the size of it.
Actually, tedious would be a better word. The more you write, the more you reveal about LDS beliefs that have no Biblical support.
The LDS belief is that Michael as the archangel was certainly a non-corporeal being, but became Adam as the first man on the earth. God had a bigger plan that just placing Adam and Eve here and watching them fall and then sort of picking up the pieces through Christ. The LDS belief is that the plan of salvation really was known by God all along.
There is nothing that God doesn’t know.

You are saying that Adam, the first human man, had been Michael the archangel, and is the Ancient of Days. Even setting the “Ancient of Days” issue aside; did Adam change back into the Archangel Michael to contend with the devil in the dispute about the body of Moses?
**Jude 1: **8Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones. 9But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.” 10 But these people blaspheme all that they do not understand, and they are destroyed by all that they, like unreasoning animals, understand instinctively.
What is Adam now: angel, mortal, spirit, exalted/god, or something else?

Anna
 
Soren1,
Surely you are aware that the LDS believe that there has been more than one “apostasy” on the earth during its history. Whether an Aramaic tradition is such or such does not establish revealed truth.

D & C 27 speaks of Michael as Adam, and Michael is the archangel is referenced in Revelation 12:7 and in Jude 1:7, wherein there is no mistaking that Michael the archangel is not the same as the Lord or God.

If you happen to have the reference, I would be interested to read the full text of your source about the statement I had never seen regarding “the Ancient of Days is God” which you said BY said. If you could cite the source, I will look it up.
I did not say that Brigham Young uttered the precise words “The Ancient of Days is God.” He did not say this explicitly for the same reason that Shakespeare never says that the witches in Macbeth are there to tempt him: it is too obvious to bear mentioning. Rather than state who the Ancient of Days is, Young presupposes it at every point. He reveals what his understanding is in the way he emphasizes “Ancient of Days” in his teachings on Adam. I think it is a reasonable inference that “Ancient of Days” is in all caps with an exclamation point in the JOD text of Young’s famous 1852 sermon because Young emphasized it by intonation. In declaring that Adam is God, he made a point to call our attention to Adam as Ancient of Days, for that is the revealed point of departure for both Young and Smith. The argument is like this: “Adam is the Ancient of Days … get it? … Adam is God … get it? … Joseph taught this principle … get it?” Young’s argument is inferential, but by no means unclear.

Throughout the literature on Adam-God that you find from the period, the “Ancient of Days” title is frequently applied to Adam in the same breath as “God.” For instance, this song from the 1856 hymnal:

WE BELIEVE IN OUR GOD
We believe in our God, the Prince of his race,
The archangel Michael, the Ancient of Days
Our own Father Adam, earth’s Lord as is plain,
Who’ll counsel and fight for His children again.
We believe in His Son, Jesus Christ who in love
To His brothers and sisters came down from above,
To die, to redeem them from death, and to teach
To mortals and spirits the gospel we preach.
 
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