Tiptoe through TULIP

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I believe a person who doesn’t receive the Jesus who keeps always is not my brother, because it would be a selfish salvation
How do you explain the following passages in light of your words “Jesus who keeps always”?

2 Peter 2:20-21 - “For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.”

Hebrews 10:26-29 - “For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. … A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?”

Do you think Jesus “kept” the people described in these verses?
 
The petty self only applies if I did make a mistake which I did assuming someone didn’t insert that mistake into my post. You can be friends with the tares and the swine that look like Christians but are not. I believe a person who doesn’t receive the Jesus who keeps always is not my brother, because it would be a selfish salvation, nor would I consider a brother in Christ someone who claims they were irresistibly selected (Calvinists). This isn’t a thought crime is it?
Nobody can edit your posts but you. Even if they could, I cannot imagine why they would. It’s the sort of typo anyone could make, and doesn’t signify anything about you except that you are human.

I’m not entirely sure what you mean by the rest of your post, but you seem to be saying that anyone who does not believe in OSAS is not your brother and not a Christian. You are welcome to that belief, which I do not share for many reasons. However, if you wish to discuss the merits of OSAS, you should probably start your own thread for that, perhaps after reading some of the numerous OSAS threads that there have been on CAF already. TULIP and OSAS, although connected in some ways, are really not the same topic.

–Jen
 
How do you explain the following passages in light of your words “Jesus who keeps always”?

2 Peter 2:20-21 - “For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.”

Hebrews 10:26-29 - “For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. … A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?”

Do you think Jesus “kept” the people described in these verses?
2 Pet. 2.21 is a person who comes close to the door of salvation but doesn’t enter.

In Heb. 10 likewise he was never born-again to begin with.
 
The entire concept sounds so dark and, well, typically 16th century European. That’s because it is.

If God’s grace is irresistible, and our election is unconditional, then why do Calvinists evangelize?

Nonsensical.
 
I had a friend that attended a multicultural nondenominational church strongly influenced by calvinistic beliefs. She gave me.the tapes of the sermons her pastor gave on T.U.L.I.P.
I was really turned off by the total depravity concept and never finished the rest of the tapes.
Thank you for your post. I rejoice that you were turned off by the above concept. 🙂

I am aware that the teachings of Calvinism are not the teachings of the
Catholic Church. I thank the Lord for the Magisterium.

How vulnerable we can be when we do not hear the teachings of the Church.

St. Francis de Sales brought many Calvinists back to the Church.

St. Francis de Sales, Pray for us!
 
Ok. Round two. Not as distressed, not as exhausted after the week. Thank you for your patience, all.

Dorothy – Remembering how St Francis de Sales had a period of his life where he feared he was predestined against his will was helpful to me last night to know that I certainly couldn’t have been reading this right, and that will had to have a role.

dmar – I did notice the exception clause, although I wasn’t satisfied with it because I was still free to believe something that, at first and second and maybe third glance, I was failing to see as remotely orthodox. Sort of like, Catholics can believe it’s good to hate others, or they can’t (obviously they can’t, but if this sort of thing were permitted, no one could rest easily knowing that it was permitted)

You are right that I may have mis-interpreted Akin, here. I was confusing what Thomism meant. Although it still seems odd to me (due no doubt to my lack of knowledge), at the very least it doesn’t seem awful. I suppose my difficulty was just in understanding that God could make something work every time he wanted it to, without forcing man’s will. Which is still hard to comprehend but one could suppose it were possible if one knew more.

What was problematic in my limited eyes was that God is spoken of a few times as choosing the elect for no other reason than his own will; that meaning, not because the elect would will to love Him if they were graced, but purely because He decided for some and not others, independent of who they were (thus it should seem, at random).

But perhaps this is just a clever way of saying the same thing I was believing. That God does know His elect will choose Him with grace, and that others won’t choose Him even with grace. But the caveat, now: He chooses the elect because He wills it but not because of them, not as though He were bound to the elect because of the choices men would make, but out of His mercy and wisdom in what He knows about them. I think the two ideas are reconcilable and that it is phrased this way so as to avoid the heretical conclusion that man, by his will, forces God’s hand (God, who owes man nothing, cannot be obliged by anyone other than by His own self to render man any service)

Lastly, the reason I had been interpreting negative reprobation to be the same as double predestination in terms of results was as follows: that anyone who received not grace from God for salvation, although they would have willed it if they could, is simply condemned de facto to Hell, because they have too impaired a will without grace (this being the way God made man’s natural will) to make it there on their own. Thus God, in passing them over, was not even offering so much as a life preserver, which seemed cruel if there were persons among them who would have liked to use a life preserver.

But perhaps here, also, those negatively reprobated are simply those God already knew, and did not reprobate them because of their future wills (which would imply again that God was forced by the actions of man) but out of His own will (although knowing).

Why, look at the time… I will respond to more posts later. Thanks again everyone for helping out, here. Thank God for St Francis de Sales and also St Joan of Arc, without whom sometimes I just don’t know if I could hold on! 🙂
 
SighGuy,

There is a treasury of truth and wisdom in the Church!

Thanks be to the Lord. 🙂
 
cin.org/users/james/files/tulip.htm

This has caused me immense distress. I must be mis-reading it. I’d like someone to help me, here. I have the sickest feeling that I cannot even truly be awake, that I must be in a sort of awful nightmare.

It’s especially the part of Unconditional Election. It seems set against everything I thought I knew about Catholicism. It would seem to completely eliminate the meaningfulness of merit and free will. It seems to make free will into a sort of practical joke, so to speak. Either God has predestined you for glory, in which case you’ll will it (without being able not to), or God has “passed over” you, and since God made you unable to merit Heaven by your own means, as your natural will is so severely wounded, you’re assuredly damned (thus it’s not a double predestination, but in terms of the results, it is)

I can’t see where free will plays into this. It’s the sort of thing I would have laughed at to hear, if I weren’t now hearing it from CA apologists.

Be kind, here. I’m not trying to rail against God, or anyone. I’m feeling like everything I know about my faith is completely shattered and useless. It’s kind of rough.
Catholicism simply never separates mans will from his justification/salvation, even as he needs God’s help (grace) in turning to Him. From the Catechism:

**1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.27

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42

600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:

Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.
**
 
grannymh – I shall have to set my mind to it, finding out what I can learn about unconditional election and this Thomistic sort of grace. I am sure, like you said, the points must be reconcilable with what the Church teaches, and it is just a lack of understanding on my part that I do not see it clearly.

Although, perhaps it is wise to start with the easiest and work our way up… to make the whole thing more palatable. 🙂

revert jen – it was well said that I shouldn’t look into these things when I’m already exhausted…! And I know that I couldn’t have been reading it right, or I couldn’t have been in such conflict over it, since the way I was reading it was, I knew, contrary to the teaching of the Church. Some of these things are best left unturned until we are ready to turn them (I am not advocating that we should ignore Truth! But that we might need to wait a little before looking at it in order to understand it better)
 
This actually could have been a factor in my conversion to catholicism.

I was raised in a church similar to the Catholic church, but from 18-45 didn’t go to church. I had a protestant friend who would invite me everh once in awhile and I would go for a few times then stop going
I couldn’t understand these protestant churches and their services not crntered around communion and I missed a liturgical service.

Anyhow when she gave me these tapes to listen to I knew it was false teaching. I knew somehow the Catholic church held the truth and eventually knew I didn’t want to be attendng anymore protestant churches where the pastor decided what the congregation should believe Especially after hearing the tape on total depravity.

Not long after I went back to the church I was raised in and realized it was still too protestant. So I started my journey home to the Catholic church.
 
fhansen – thank you for those great and reaffirming excerpts from the CCC. I was at a loss last night wondering if I had been misinformed and that we saw free will as sort of arbitrary or a contrived concept and that the faith was truly so bleak as God choosing some and not others without regard to their wills. These testaments of the faith found in the CCC are a reassurance.
 
This actually could have been a factor in my conversion to catholicism.

I was raised in a church similar to the Catholic church, but from 18-45 didn’t go to church. I had a protestant friend who would invite me everh once in awhile and I would go for a few times then stop going
I couldn’t understand these protestant churches and their services not crntered around communion and I missed a liturgical service.

Anyhow when she gave me these tapes to listen to I knew it was false teaching. I knew somehow the Catholic church held the truth and eventually knew I didn’t want to be attendng anymore protestant churches where the pastor decided what the congregation should believe Especially after hearing the tape on total depravity.

Not long after I went back to the church I was raised in and realized it was still too protestant. So I started my journey home to the Catholic church.
Welcome home! 🙂
 
Total depravity
Unconditional election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the saints

It is Protestant.
It is Calvinist rather than generally Protestant: a considerable proportion of Protestants have been not only non-Calvinist but thoroughly opposed to the above ideas.
 
600 Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.
“To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace”

That directly contradicts Roman’s 9. But no bother, I think the Canon of the Bible needs to be reconsidered by the Church anyway
 
It is Calvinist rather than generally Protestant: a considerable proportion of Protestants have been not only non-Calvinist but thoroughly opposed to the above ideas.
Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply otherwise. I just wanted to make clear that it wasn’t Catholic. But of course you’re correct.

–Jen
 
dmar – I did notice the exception clause, although I wasn’t satisfied with it because I was still free to believe something that, at first and second and maybe third glance, I was failing to see as remotely orthodox. Sort of like, Catholics can believe it’s good to hate others, or they can’t (obviously they can’t, but if this sort of thing were permitted, no one could rest easily knowing that it was permitted)
I think there are a lot of horrifying positions that haven’t yet been declared heretical by the Church. Some theologians in Church History have argued that lying can be permitted in certain circumstances, for example. I am not sure how accurate the accusations are, but I believe many orthodox Jesuit writers have been accused of supporting lying under certain circumstances. (This is also tied up with the issue of “mental reservation,” which further obscures my understanding of the issue.) If the Church actually taught that it was sometimes okay to lie, I think I would have an extremely hard time with that, but since it doesn’t teach that I don’t have as much of a problem. I only have to accept that some theologians have adopted a position that I think is terrible, and they have not yet been declared outright heretics. I don’t really expect the Church to have to anathematize every idea that I think is terrible. I just give my reasons for thinking those positions are terrible, and move on.
You are right that I may have mis-interpreted Akin, here. I was confusing what Thomism meant. Although it still seems odd to me (due no doubt to my lack of knowledge), at the very least it doesn’t seem awful. I suppose my difficulty was just in understanding that God could make something work every time he wanted it to, without forcing man’s will. Which is still hard to comprehend but one could suppose it were possible if one knew more.
Scripture speaks many times of God moving the hearts of men, but somehow He does that without forcing it. That’s what I think Thomism is getting at.
What was problematic in my limited eyes was that God is spoken of a few times as choosing the elect for no other reason than his own will; that meaning, not because the elect would will to love Him if they were graced, but purely because He decided for some and not others, independent of who they were (thus it should seem, at random).
St. Augustine once said that God saves whom He saves to illustrate His mercy, and condemns whom He condemns to illustrate His justice. If we interpret that in a Calvinist way, it sounds terrible. But St. Augustine also clarified by saying that when a man is saved, that is due to God, and when a man is condemned, that is due to his own fault. Viewed in that light, it doesn’t seem bad to me at all: those who go to hell through their own fault do illustrate God’s justice. He gives them what they deserve. :eek: It’s a sobering lesson, but I think it is important.

I bring that up because I don’t think Thomism makes God’s condemnatory judgment independent of how people act. It is His mercy that saves people regardless of how they acted in the past, but His justice condemns people because of how they act, specifically a final, permanent decision not to accept God’s grace. Anyway, that is how I understand Thomism.
Lastly, the reason I had been interpreting negative reprobation to be the same as double predestination in terms of results was as follows: that anyone who received not grace from God for salvation, although they would have willed it if they could, is simply condemned de facto to Hell, because they have too impaired a will without grace (this being the way God made man’s natural will) to make it there on their own. Thus God, in passing them over, was not even offering so much as a life preserver, which seemed cruel if there were persons among them who would have liked to use a life preserver.
Thomism teaches against that, though, by saying that all men are given sufficient grace to be saved.

From Ludwig Ott: “God gives all the just sufficient grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufficiens) for the observation of the Divine Commandments. (De fide.)”

And: “God gives all the faithful who are sinners sufficient grace (gratia saltem remote sufficiens) for conversion. (Sent. communis.)”

And: “God gives all innocent unbelievers (infideles negativi) sufficient grace to achieve eternal salvation. (Sent. certa.)”

And: “There is a grace which is truly sufficient and yet remains inefficacious(gratia vere et mere sufficiens. (De fide.)”

In Thomism, therefore, those who reject God’s will are given sufficient grace (the life preserver), they just rejected it.
But perhaps here, also, those negatively reprobated are simply those God already knew, and did not reprobate them because of their future wills (which would imply again that God was forced by the actions of man) but out of His own will (although knowing).
I believe Catholic teaching does say that the reprobate are condemned in view of their future wills. From Ludwig Ott again: “God, by an Eternal Resolve of His Will, predestines certain men, on account of their foreseen sins, to eternal rejection. (De fide.)” Again, if you interpret this in a Calvinist way, it sounds terrible. But it specifically says the opposite of Calvinism: they are reprobated “on account of their foreseen sins,” whereas Calvinism says they sin on account of their reprobation.

Anyway, I hope that is helpful. Please let me know if I’ve helped you resolve anything at all.
 
It is helpful. Perhaps it is somewhat analogous to a great orator. A powerful orator changes the wills of many men and women, but does not control their will. It would be silly to say that a man had no free will after listening to a great speaker, but still it is silly to say that a speaker will certainly have no effect upon the will of a man. Each man differently, and some the reverse effect, but nevertheless the speaker has an effect.

If God, then, is a perfect orator, He could presumably move the wills of men away from what they were going to do and bring them towards perfection, although it is still the will of the man (and again, some will even become more hostile towards God after hearing his voice than they were before, because of their will)

I’m sure it is vastly more complicated, but such an explanation, if not totally flawed, is at least sufficient for my understanding at the current time.
 
It might be fair to put it this way. Will does have a role, but that role is perfectly negative. I cannot be saved unless I surrender altogether to divine grace; it is largely a refusal to resist the operations of grace. There is otherwise nothing that my will does which enables salvation.
 
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