Tired of the way things are going

[AndyP2010]

In most parishes, most decisions are made to make a small number of their parishioners happy. In other words, whenever is going to consult with his flock about a decision, he is naturally going to talk to whoever is available. That is, the about 10% of the parish( maybe on the high side), who constantly volunteer time and treasure to make things work. Father is only going to talk to people that he knows, so if your not involved when is he going to hear what you think.

 

[adstrinity]

coolduude,

So happy you know about St. John Cantius!! I was going to suggest going there, but, let me just suggest you go there sooner than this Fall! You’ll be soooooooooooo much happier you did!

I was going to suggest going to a TLM because there are NO abuses in that Mass, BUT, that wont really help with your situation.

You can try talking to the Priest, or a committee who runs whatever needs changing (liturgical, parish, music director…whatever is in charge of that church), and see what can be done to make YOUR PARISH more holy, but, it may fall on deaf ears.

I really recommend going to SJC as soon as possible. EVEN if you do not go to the Latin Mass (High, Low, or Novus Missae), the OF English Mass is celebrated ad orientem and I think incense is used. Oh, and, the church is BEAUTIFUL!!! IT LOOKS LIKE A CATHOLIC CHURCH!!! If you are looking for authentic Catholicism, this is where to go. There are statues and icons all over, and 6, count them, SIX confessionals (at least there was when I was last there).

I really cannot emphasize enough to get out of your parish now. You deserve SJC. Your eternal destiny depends upon it! Your parish shouldn’t cause you to parish (ha ha).

 

[ElToro]

This one is definitely an abuse.

this is one of the reasons why I prefer the Latin Mass

There is nothing inherent in the EF Mass that keeps glass chalices away. A celebrant could just as easily use a glass chalice for the EF as the OF Mass.

 

[ElToro]

I am growing tired of the way Mass is run at some parishes (it feels like the majority of parishes do this, but I could be wrong).

Here’s what I saw when visiting a parish earlier today:
-Bad Liturgical music (Sing-songy songs, almost to the point of clapping. Here is a link to one of the songs we actually did sing).
-Going against the rubrics several times:
-For the collection, the deacon came down from the altar, stood in front of it facing out, and the little children of the parish ran (yes, ran) to him to deposit money.
-The chalices used were of glass
-Hand holding during the Our Father
-A Risen Lord statue suspended in front of the church (above the altar) instead of a crucifix.
-Tabernacle off to the side

I could go on, but other complaints of mine wouldn’t be about the Mass.

I wish things didn’t have to be like this. Is it ignorance or arrogance that causes such… abuses? And what can we do to change it? Get involved?

Thanks for any (name removed by moderator)ut,
Coolduude

Not everything is suggest is an “abuse.” You may not like to hold hands during the Lord’s Prayer, “sing-songy” songs or having the tabernacle located off to the side (I know I sure don’t) or the kids running but none are an “abuse.” None of these 4 are even prohibited in fact. All are sad though.

There is no problem with a Risen Lord statue either so long as there is a proper crucifix (even the processional crucifix) near the altar. Look closely.

The glass chalices are a no-no. If this is your home parish, ask your pastor is you can lead a campaign to raise money for proper sacred vessels.

 

[benedictgal]

There is nothing inherent in the EF Mass that keeps glass chalices away. A celebrant could just as easily use a glass chalice for the EF as the OF Mass.

Actually, the rubrics of teh 1962 Missal govern what happens in the EF Mass. Thus, since glassware is not allowed in these rubrics, it should not be used. Furthermore, since the Holy See has declared glassware reprobate, these should not be used in the first place.

 

[ElToro]

Try to focus on God rather than upon supposed likes and dislikes and personal complaints and imagined wrongs. Try to see the positive in everything rather than seeking out the negative. Try to come to church to worship God rather than to run the church. Try to amend one’s own ignorance and arrogance rather than assigning ignorance and arrogance to others whom one does not even know.

Maybe then you might not be so tired of attending Mass in the presence of God.

There is a lot of wisdom to what you are saying. I would still look into the glass chalices though. The reality is however that if the local ordinary allows them, HE takes the responsibility for their use and the matter will have to be resolved at his level. Lotsa luck with that.

It’s interesting if one REALLY thinks about this matter. If a metal chalice of Precious Blood got dropped, the resulting mess is pretty much the same as it would be if a glass chalice was dropped that was filled with the Precious Blood. Both would be terrible situations. the Precious Blood would not be profaned to a larger degree if the chalice shattered. The clean-up might be a touch more difficult but the level of profanation would not be any different. Those that suggest the profanation would be greater are talking out of their hats.

I suspect the Holy See added the prohibition of glass vessels because many thousands (millions?) of parishes don’t use actual glass chalices. They use ordinary stemware. Now that DOES profane the Precious Blood because in our society that’s essentially equating the Precious Blood to wine. I think the cleanest/easiest way for the Holy See to limit this problem is to make the prohibition they did – but for this reason, not the earlier one.

If I were a priest and I had my great-great uncle’s Waterford crystal chalice, I might use it now and then if I had my bishop’s approval. Great art adds to the liturgy and such a chalice would in my belief.

 

[ElToro]

Actually, the rubrics of teh 1962 Missal govern what happens in the EF Mass. Thus, since glassware is not allowed in these rubrics, it should not be used. Furthermore, since the Holy See has declared glassware reprobate, these should not be used in the first place.

Actually there is absolutely nothing about the EF Mass that keeps glass chalices away to a higher level than the OF. If a celebrant is going to use one, he can do so with the same level of effort in either the EF or OF.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Thus, the OP has every right to be concerned about the liturgical state in his parish.

Unless his taste in music is no better…that is VERY subjective…

 

[Little_One0307]

Where would you find one in your area? And does this fulfill the obligation?

Just look to see if your city or your diocese has religious contemplative orders present. If there are, then yes going to their Masses fulfill the Sunday obligation.

God bless.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

coolduude,

I was going to suggest going to a TLM because there are NO abuses in that Mass, BUT, that wont really help with your situation.

Really? There were NEVER any abuses in the TLM? The priest never mispoke or mumbled the words? I think that is a big leap that I would not necessarily make…

 

[benedictgal]

Actually there is nothing inherent in the EF Mass that keeps glass chalices away (to a larger degree than the OF.) A celebrant could just as easily use a glass chalice for the EF as the OF Mass.

I believe that this is incorrect. There is nothing in the rubrics that allows glassware to be used.

Furthermore, the prohibition on glassware is not something that the local Ordinary can easily dispense the parishes from following. Furthermore, regarding glassware, it had been reported that when the Holy Father went to Venice, someone had commissioned a Murano glass chalice for him to use. The Holy Father did not use it; he wound up using one made of gold, instead.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I am growing tired of the way Mass is run at some parishes (it feels like the majority of parishes do this, but I could be wrong).

Here’s what I saw when visiting a parish earlier today:

-Bad Liturgical music (Sing-songy songs, almost to the point of clapping. Here is a link to one of the songs we actually did sing).

Just because you don’t like it does not mean that it is a liturgical abuse…

-Going against the rubrics several times:
-For the collection, the deacon came down from the altar, stood in front of it facing out, and the little children of the parish ran (yes, ran) to him to deposit money.

Same with this…in all honesty…how many times has this happened? Every Sunday or…once?

-The chalices used were of glass Now you have a real complaint here…talk to the priest.

-Hand holding during the Our Father As long as the priest does not command or invite it? Big deal…you don’t have to hold hands with anyone…so don’t?
-A Risen Lord statue suspended in front of the church (above the altar) instead of a crucifix. Did you look really hard for the crucifix? Are were you do fixated on the other statue that you might have missed it?

-Tabernacle off to the side How far off to the side? That would make a big difference…our’s is slightly off to the side…as there is no room for a back altar…but it is ever so slightly off to the side vs…in another room…again…how much are we talking about here?

I could go on, but other complaints of mine wouldn’t be about the Mass.

I wish things didn’t have to be like this. Is it ignorance or arrogance that causes such… abuses? And what can we do to change it? Get involved?

Thanks for any (name removed by moderator)ut,
Coolduude

 

[ElToro]

Unless his taste in music is no better…that is VERY subjective…

Indeed.

If he went to his pastor with the list he provided us it might very well not go well for him.

 

[ElToro]

http://www.camptaichi.com/wp-content/uploads/is-tai-chi-your-holy-grail.jpg
If I was a Catholic priest and I located the Holy Grail, I would certainly celebrate the Mass with it even if it had a soapstone bowl (breakable) as many suggest.

I think it would be a great idea for a priest to use an all metal chalice with handles like the ones that were once used in some places at least now and then to remind people that things have changed – even drastically.

 

[benedictgal]

http://www.camptaichi.com/wp-content/uploads/is-tai-chi-your-holy-grail.jpg
If I was a Catholic priest and I located the Holy Grail, I would certainly celebrate the Mass with it even if it had a soapstone bowl as many suggest.

I anticipated that you would bring this up. Regarding this particular chalice, it is agate, not glass. Furthermore, the only one who can dispense with any norm is the Holy Father because of Papal Supremacy.

Incidentally, prior to Pope Benedict XVI using this in Valencia, the last one to have used it was Blessed Pope John Paul II.

 

[ElToro]

I anticipated that you would bring this up. Regarding this particular chalice, it is agate, not glass. Furthermore, the only one who can dispense with any norm is the Holy Father because of Papal Supremacy.

Incidentally, prior to Pope Benedict XVI using this in Valencia, the last one to have used it was Blessed Pope John Paul II.

So?

Agate is hardly a precious material – certainly no more than fine Waterford Crystal. I would not use the chalice because of what it is made of but because of its awesome history and it’s beauty.

Furthermore my local diocesan bishop has the authority to allow my pastor to use a Waterford Crystal Chalice or the Holy Grail. Many people misunderstand just how much authority local bishops have, despite rigrous objections from “fr. z” and ewtn.

 

[Paxvobis]

I am growing tired of the way Mass is run at some parishes (it feels like the majority of parishes do this, but I could be wrong).

Here’s what I saw when visiting a parish earlier today:
-Bad Liturgical music (Sing-songy songs, almost to the point of clapping. Here is a link to one of the songs we actually did sing).

We sang that too. It’s a crying shame considering that just forty years ago we sang theologically rich hymns like Dies Irae (you know, songs that actually had depth and meaning)

That said, while I do prefer Gregorian Chant, I do like some of the songs they play at the vernacular Mass, like “I am the Bread of Life”, “Shepherd Me O Lord”, and yes, even “Gather Us In.” Maybe it’s because I grew up with them that I have a soft spot for them.

-Going against the rubrics several times:
-For the collection, the deacon came down from the altar, stood in front of it facing out, and the little children of the parish ran (yes, ran) to him to deposit money.
-The chalices used were of glass
-Hand holding during the Our Father
-A Risen Lord statue suspended in front of the church (above the altar) instead of a crucifix.
-Tabernacle off to the side

I could go on, but other complaints of mine wouldn’t be about the Mass.

I wish things didn’t have to be like this. Is it ignorance or arrogance that causes such… abuses? And what can we do to change it? Get involved?

I live in a diocese with tons of churches, so maybe its a little presumptuous of me, but perhaps you could find a church without these elements. I bet all Latin Mass churches don’t have any of these things, and most OF parishes don’t too.

That said, I think people get rid of things like crucifixes and tabernacles on the altar just because they can. There are real theological reasons for having a crucifix behind the altar and not a “risen Christ.” There are real theological reasons for maintaining a spirit of reverence in church. People are just ignorant of these and fall for whatever is “new.”

 

[Stylites]

I am growing tired of the way Mass is run at some parishes (it feels like the majority of parishes do this, but I could be wrong).

People should try to worship God rather than worship worship.

 

[benedictgal]

People should try to worship God rather than worship worship.

Actually, God cares a great deal about norms. He spent no little time dictating to Moses just how, when and where He should be worshipped. Jesus, too, cared about this. Recall that He fashioned whips to drive out the moneychangers and the vendors from the Temple because they were profaning sacred space, the Court of the Gentiles, an area of the Temple that was reserved for non-Jews to worship.

 

[benedictgal]

So?

Agate is hardly a precious material – certainly no more than fine Waterford Crystal. I would not use the chalice because of what it is made of but because of its awesome history and it’s beauty.

Furthermore my local diocesan bishop has the authority to allow my pastor to use a Waterford Crystal Chalice or the Holy Grail. Many people misunderstand just how much authority local bishops have, despite rigrous objections from “fr. z” and ewtn.

El Toro, the bishop only has the authority to do the following, according to the GIRM:

1. The Diocesan Bishop, who is to be regarded as the high priest of his flock, and from whom the life in Christ of the faithful under his care in a certain sense derives and upon whom it depends,148 must promote, regulate, and be vigilant over the liturgical life in his diocese. It is to him that in this Instruction is entrusted the regulating of the discipline of concelebration (cf. above, nos. 202, 374) and the establishing of norms regarding the function of serving the priest at the altar (cf. above, no. 107), the distribution of Holy Communion under both kinds (cf. above, no. 283), and the construction and ordering of churches (cf. above, no. 291). With him lies responsibility above all for fostering the spirit of the Sacred Liturgy in the priests, deacons, and faithful.

As Rome has declared that the use of glassware, ceremics and the like is reprobate, the bishop cannot willfully set aside the Holy See’s declaration. Reprobate is strong language for Rome to use and it is not something that can be easily ignored and disregarded.