Tired of the way things are going

[ConstantineTG]

That’s not how it works. You don’t become a priest just to fix things.

Right. St. Francis never became a priest but he did fix a lot of things

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I am growing tired of the way Mass is run at some parishes (it feels like the majority of parishes do this, but I could be wrong).

Here’s what I saw when visiting a parish earlier today:
-Bad Liturgical music (Sing-songy songs, almost to the point of clapping. Here is a link to one of the songs we actually did sing).
-Going against the rubrics several times:
-For the collection, the deacon came down from the altar, stood in front of it facing out, and the little children of the parish ran (yes, ran) to him to deposit money.
-The chalices used were of glass
-Hand holding during the Our Father
-A Risen Lord statue suspended in front of the church (above the altar) instead of a crucifix.
-Tabernacle off to the side

I could go on, but other complaints of mine wouldn’t be about the Mass.

I wish things didn’t have to be like this. Is it ignorance or arrogance that causes such… abuses? And what can we do to change it? Get involved?

Thanks for any (name removed by moderator)ut,
Coolduude

You’ve gotten a lot of responses and Benedictgal chiming in with appropriate rubrics.

I would remind you to do what you can, through correct channels, to change the things that are actual abuses (the glass chalice) and to your best to tune out what you don’t like but have no control over (hand holding).

For the other things in between - wishy-washy music, YES you will need to get involved!

 

[Sarika]

People should try to worship God rather than worship worship.

Most people with an interest in the subject do not tend to “worship worship”. They are noticing problems that hinder true worship of God, and sad about our inability to worship in the manner set forth for us by Christ through His apostles.

 

[FrancisB]

Unless his taste in music is no better…that is VERY subjective…

I wish that people would not persist in this idea. Just because non-trained musicians think that the rubrics are unclear because they don’t understand what they mean doesn’t mean that they are not clear. The prohibition against music that sounds like popular music was very clear. There is a clear stylistic indication as to what should be sung. There are even very clear “strong suggestions” about what text is to be sung. This is just ignored. Musical suggestions are no where near as subjective as they may seem. The people involved in liturgical music should have the training in liturgical music to know what to pick. They don’t, and the publishing companies make it difficult to find the right music. I think our Holy Father was very clear about Gregorian Chant, though, and there is Gregorian Chant translated into English, so this doesn’t only apply to the Latin Mass!

 

[Stylites]

Jesus, too, cared about this. Recall that He fashioned whips to drive out the moneychangers and the vendors from the Temple because they were profaning sacred space, the Court of the Gentiles, an area of the Temple that was reserved for non-Jews to worship.

I recall that He fashioned whips to drive out the moneychangers and the vendors from the temple because they were burdening the people and profiting from it, not because they dared to raise their hands in blessing or worship when the pharisees said they weren’t supposed to.

 

[ElToro]

Really? There were NEVER any abuses in the TLM? The priest never mispoke or mumbled the words? I think that is a big leap that I would not necessarily make…

Or skipped entire prayers or segments of the Mass or mumbled like an auctioneer? You’re right. To suggest attending the EF is a guarantee that there will be no excuses is folly.

 

[benedictgal]

I recall that He fashioned whips to drive out the moneychangers and the vendors from the temple because they were burdening the people and profiting from it, not because they dared to raise their hands in blessing or worship when the pharisees said they weren’t supposed to.

Stylites, they were, in fact, interfering with the worship that the Gentiles were trying to give God. Jesus said that “My Father’s house is a a house of prayer, but you have converted it into a den of thieves.” They were profaning sacred space, space that is reserved for prayers.

Incidentally, this has nothing to do with the Pharisees. Jesus’ interactions with them are often misinterpreted in this forums. The Pharisees had nothing to do with the cultic sacrificial worship of Ancient Israel. These are two separate matters.

 

[ElToro]

Most people with an interest in the subject do not tend to “worship worship”. They are noticing problems that hinder true worship of God, and sad about our inability to worship in the manner set forth for us by Christ through His apostles.

NONE of the things listed by the OP “hinder true worship of God.” Now if the priest was messing around with the words of institution or unnerving the faithful by profaning the Eucharist during the Mass the OP might have a point. At one parish I attend some ~!@#$%^&*()_+ spits out ejaculatory prayers/additions throughout the Mass. That DOES hinder many because he continually breaks other peoples’ concentration throughout the Mass. Then again that’s his intent – to bring attention to himself which is a huge problem.

 

[benedictgal]

NONE of the things listed by the OP “hinder true worship of God.” Now if the priest was messing around with the words of institution or unnerving the faithful by profaning the Eucharist during the Mass the OP might have a point. At one parish I attend some ~!@#$%^&*()_+ spits out ejaculatory prayers/additions throughout the Mass. That DOES hinder many because he continually breaks other peoples’ concentration throughout the Mass. Then again that’s his intent – to bring attention to himself which is a huge problem.

The glass chalice issue is a serious one because Redemptionis Sacramentum states that such usage is reprobate. Substandard music is also a problem, especially since it has already been addressed by not only Pope Benedict XVI, but the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist who labeled such music as a shadow in the liturgy and also by Blessed Pope John Paul II in his Chirograph on Sacred Music.

 

[coolduude]

NONE of the things listed by the OP “hinder true worship of God.” Now if the priest was messing around with the words of institution or unnerving the faithful by profaning the Eucharist during the Mass the OP might have a point. At one parish I attend some ~!@#$%^&*()_+ spits out ejaculatory prayers/additions throughout the Mass. That DOES hinder many because he continually breaks other peoples’ concentration throughout the Mass. Then again that’s his intent – to bring attention to himself which is a huge problem.

So glass chalices, which are not to be used, don’t hinder the worship of God?

The Church has laid out these rules, not “because they can”, but because God wants to be worshiped in a specific way- His way, not ours. So when the rules are broken, it does indeed interfere with worship.

 

[ElToro]

I recall that He fashioned whips to drive out the moneychangers and the vendors from the temple because they were burdening the people and profiting from it, not because they dared to raise their hands in blessing or worship when the pharisees said they weren’t supposed to.

Is that in Scripture?

 

[ElToro]

So glass chalices, which are not to be used, don’t hinder the worship of God?

Absolutely not. In some places in this world it’s either a glass (or other breakable, non-noble material) chalice or no Mass. What is does do is drive some people (those who feel they have the authority to direct the bishops due to their reading of the GIRM and RS) nutty. While it could easily be argued that said people are hindered from worshipping God while in such a state, being in that state is THEIR problem and not the priest who used the crystal chalice. Some here will have no idea what that means and that too is THEIR problem.

The Church has laid out these rules, not “because they can”, but because God wants to be worshiped in a specific way- His way, not ours. So when the rules are broken, it does indeed interfere with worship.

 

[benedictgal]

Absolutely not. In some places in this world it’s either a glass (or other breakable, non-noble material) chalice or no Mass. What is does do is drive some people (those who feel they have the authority to direct the bishops due to their reading of the GIRM and RS) nutty. While it could easily be argued that said people are hindered from worshipping God while in such a state, being in that state is THEIR problem and not the priest who used the crystal chalice. Some here will have no idea what that means and that too is THEIR problem.

First of all, there is no need to be insulting. The fact remains that the GIRM and RS need to be read and heeded. The documents exist for a reason. Even the poorest parishes do have the appropriate vessels for liturgical use, as these are often donated from parishes or religious communities that have bought new ones.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

I am growing tired of the way Mass is run at some parishes (it feels like the majority of parishes do this, but I could be wrong).

-For the collection, the deacon came down from the altar, stood in front of it facing out, and the little children of the parish ran (yes, ran) to him to deposit money.

At least they weren’t playing video games or gobbling granola bars. Who knows, maybe they will have GOOD memories of the Mass. “Suffer the little children to come unto Me.”

 

[coolduude]

Absolutely not. In some places in this world it’s either a glass (or other breakable, non-noble material) chalice or no Mass. What is does do is drive some people (those who feel they have the authority to direct the bishops due to their reading of the GIRM and RS) nutty. While it could easily be argued that said people are hindered from worshipping God while in such a state, being in that state is THEIR problem and not the priest who used the crystal chalice. Some here will have no idea what that means and that too is THEIR problem.

And I don’t know why it’s so difficult to follow the rules, especially in this country, where wealth abounds.

 

[Stylites]

Is that in Scripture?

Here they were, carefully following the Mosaic Law, as if the only issue were Jewish shekels changing hands (or hoofs, supposedly), in the temple. Jesus acted out of anger, that the Father He loves is being wronged, that people are placing burdens on others and keeping them away from His Father, and profiting from it.

And the pasch of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. And he found in the temple them that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting. And when he had made, as it were, a scourge of little cords, he drove them all out of the temple, the sheep also and the oxen, and the money of the changers he poured out, and the tables he overthrew. And to them that sold doves he said: Take these things hence, and make not the house of my Father a house of traffic.
-John 2:13-16

I say: Leave the liturgy and the burdens of perfectly following it, and admonishing and haranguing others, to the liturgical experts in the Church, and let the people of God focus on the liturgy of loving God, lest future generations talk of the folly from “the spirit of the reform of the reform.”

 

[coolduude]

I say: Leave the liturgy and the burdens of perfectly following it, and admonishing and haranguing others, to the liturgical experts in the Church, and let the people of God focus on the liturgy of loving God, lest future generations talk of the folly from “the spirit of the reform of the reform.”

It’s good at heart and good in theory. But the Mass I described is exactly what happens when you leave it to the experts. Sometimes the common folk needs to step up and put their word in.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I wish that people would not persist in this idea. Just because non-trained musicians think that the rubrics are unclear because they don’t understand what they mean doesn’t mean that they are not clear. The prohibition against music that sounds like popular music was very clear. There is a clear stylistic indication as to what should be sung. There are even very clear “strong suggestions” about what text is to be sung. This is just ignored. Musical suggestions are no where near as subjective as they may seem. The people involved in liturgical music should have the training in liturgical music to know what to pick. They don’t, and the publishing companies make it difficult to find the right music. I think our Holy Father was very clear about Gregorian Chant, though, and there is Gregorian Chant translated into English, so this doesn’t only apply to the Latin Mass!

So are you going to pay to have trained musicians instead of volunteers. The entire Mass does not need to be in Gregorian Chant…

 

[benedictgal]

Here they were, carefully following the Mosaic Law, as if the only issue were Jewish shekels changing hands (or hoofs, supposedly), in the temple. Jesus acted out of anger, that the Father He loves is being wronged, that people are placing burdens on others and keeping them away from His Father, and profiting from it.

I say: Leave the liturgy and the burdens of perfectly following it, and admonishing and haranguing others, to the liturgical experts in the Church, and let the people of God focus on the liturgy of loving God, lest future generations talk of the folly from “the spirit of the reform of the reform.”

However, form and content in worship mattered very much to God then as they do now. Jesus respected the rubrics of sacrificial cultic worship because they all pointed towards Him. They found their authentic meaning in His Sacrifice. Furthermore, because His own Father dictated the norms, they were all the more important Jesus.

The Church reminds us that we have a right to a properly celebrated Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Redemptionis Sacramentum further asserts that it is the right of the faithful to report such abuses to the bishop and, if the bishop does not act, directly to the Holy See.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Most people with an interest in the subject do not tend to “worship worship”. They are noticing problems that hinder true worship of God, and sad about our inability to worship in the manner set forth for us by Christ through His apostles.

So…it’s not their fault that they are distracted in Mass…and spending so much time nit picking? Why not concentrate on worshiping. If you have a problem with something such as a glass chalice…here’s a thought…have a charitable discussion with the priest later on. But if you spend all your time with your feathers ruffled because someone is holding hands during the Our Father…and are just grumbling about it in your heart…well good luck explaining that one to God later on…