Tired

[cheeto1]

o.k. - First of all, let me just say that the devil is real. When
you can see that, you will know what God can save you
from. There is a spiritual world who is fighting just like
you may have seen in an old cartoon, an angel on one
shoulder, a devil on the other. Very few thoughts are our
own idea, yet it is we who have been given the free choice.

     I didn't wan't to tell you this, because it's better not to
     think about it.

    If you really want to know the truth, you must find out
    about Jesus.  Read all 4 gospels, and read them again.
    When you read these, something will strike you, and
    you'll know what to pray.  Believe me, God is real, and
    you Will find out.

   In the meantime, do everything you would if you
  already knew.  We are all praying for you, and you
  will find out!:heart:

 

[Awake]

Hi awake i didnt mean by over analysing things that you were looking too hard for god, thats the point god is always there even when you feel hes not, its about sometimes stopping the whole questioning and let him come to you if that makes any sense at all
As for you not having faith, you are questioning so you must have some, if you didnt you wouldnt bother with wanting to find out.

Sometimes it feels like we have no faith when in fact the opposite is true, we have faith but we question, as someone else said even jesus disciples questioned and they were with him.

Well, you may be right, but it sure doesn’t seem like I have faith, though.

Maybe the fact you have been around people that do not have faith in god has thrown your own faith and views up in the air, even though you feel you have never had any? sometimes we need to surround ourselves with people who do have that faith in order to get us back to where we want to be.

No, this isn’t the case. I’m usually around people that have very strong faith in God.

 

[Awake]

o.k. - First of all, let me just say that the devil is real. When
you can see that, you will know what God can save you
from. There is a spiritual world who is fighting just like
you may have seen in an old cartoon, an angel on one
shoulder, a devil on the other. Very few thoughts are our
own idea, yet it is we who have been given the free choice.

     I didn't wan't to tell you this, because it's better not to
     think about it.

I was wondering how long it would be before somebody brought this up. I did mention, after all, that I do fear the prospect of hell. So maybe talk like this is my only hope; that I’ll scare myself into believing.

If you really want to know the truth, you must find out
about Jesus. Read all 4 gospels, and read them again.
When you read these, something will strike you, and
you’ll know what to pray. Believe me, God is real, and
you Will find out.

   In the meantime, do everything you would if you
  already knew.  We are all praying for you, and you
  will find out!:heart:

I hope I’ll be able to find out. If not, then I hope that God will forgive me (if he does exist).

 

[the_phoenix]

I was wondering how long it would be before somebody brought this up. I did mention, after all, that I do fear the prospect of hell. So maybe talk like this is my only hope; that I’ll scare myself into believing.

Hi Awake,

Nice to meet you. Have prayed for you and included you in my Rosary intentions.

You’re reminding me of a teacher I had … the strictest nun I ever saw. Once, she spent the entire class period teaching us about Hell. You might say she was trying to scare the Hell out of us. And guess what? Sister Claudia is the only teacher to whom I’ve ever mailed a hand-written thank-you letter. I could see the love and concern for us behind her stern demeanor.

Thanks for sparking a memory of this nun that I still so much admire.

~~ the phoenix

 

[fhansen]

But the Bible seems pretty clear to me: those who believe will have eternal life. Catholicism says that atheism is one of the biggest problems of our time. I haven’t read anywhere in the Bible or in church documents that say as long as we try to believe, God will be happy.

Yes, but faith is not an all at once experience, like some evangelicals or “Born-agains” claim, either. Conversion, or metanoia, is a life-long process in which faith grows.

Belief and faith in Christ seems like such an underlying importance. It makes me wonder why if it is so important, why do some people have so much difficulty with it?

You bring up some good questions. I once started a thread which asked how a believer knows that Christianity is true and more specifically that the CCs’ teachings are true. For me, it’s not at all about “gut feelings” or any other kind of feelings. It’s about knowledge and intellectual assent, and the CCC teaches this, too. What makes faith different from otherwise “normal” knowledge is that it specifically concerns things we can’t see-so that we can’t obtain this faith at all unless there is a God who’s giving it. And there’s also something built into us that already knows and can recognize the shepherds voice-that voice of truth-and respond to it.

Hebrews 11:6:
6”And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.”

I think the real key is seeking-earnestly. I can only speak for myself but I left the Church at a young age, searched for truth in many places -with only a hope that there was such a thing as truth- and found to my own surprise that it led me back first to Christianity and ultimately to the CC. But the earnestness with which we want to know directly affects the degree to which we find it. And, like other posters have pointed out, sometimes we need to be aware of evil or be poor in spirit or recognize our unhealthiness, our sin, our need for healing, our helplessness or “lostness” before we get serious about responding to the voice we hear. But once we’re motivated, once it becomes important to us that we believe, then the rest falls into place. I think the CC could improve in explaining that once we’re confirmed or finished with our Catholic formal education, we may be Catholic in name but our job has just begun in terms of finding God. In any case, I can’t believe that God would ever turn down a person who is sincerely asking, seeking, or knocking. He’ll answer.

BTW, we’re all atheists to begin with.

Another great quote of Augustines’: “Love, and do what you like.”

I

 

[Conservative]

… I want to be Catholic. I really don’t want to become an atheist. I think the only thing that’s holding me back from being an atheist is my desire to be Catholic and my fear of being wrong.

Awake -
Your dilemma has sparked a very interesting thread - with many good replies, and your response above says it all. You want to be a Catholic, and your desire to be an atheist is held back by your desire to be a Catholic. 'Nuff said.

If you want to be a Catholic, then just let it happen - give it time. Don’t lose sleep over it - and don’t lose sleep over atheism which boasts that God does not exist. Or have the Madelyn Murray O’Hares of the world appointed themselves “gods” telling you so? Atheists are selling you a bill of sales - don’t buy it.

And if atheism is causing you to lose sleep - think about that, too. God gives peace. He doesn’t ask you to stress towards religion. He asks that you simply come. I think most of us have motivation issues from time to time. Go to Church - whenever you can, as often as you feel you can - just sit there and talk to God. Never feel little is accomplished. Your effort, your presence has accomplished much - and He sees you. And He knows your doubts before you. Give God some credit - and a chance to work within you.

And for those who have been inspired by priests, as a poster mentioned, please tell them. I’ve had similar experiences. They work so hard and give up so much for God and for us - let them know once in awhile - that their efforts are not in vain.

Keep trying / not stressing, Awake - and get some sleep! There is a God, and He loves you.

 

[Awake]

Yes, but faith is not an all at once experience, like some evangelicals or “Born-agains” claim, either. Conversion, or metanoia, is a life-long process in which faith grows.

True.

You bring up some good questions. I once started a thread which asked how a believer knows that Christianity is true and more specifically that the CCs’ teachings are true. For me, it’s not at all about “gut feelings” or any other kind of feelings. It’s about knowledge and intellectual assent, and the CCC teaches this, too. What makes faith different from otherwise “normal” knowledge is that it specifically concerns things we can’t see-so that we can’t obtain this faith at all unless there is a God who’s giving it. And there’s also something built into us that already knows and can recognize the shepherds voice-that voice of truth-and respond to it.

I’ve spent a lot of time debating with Protestants over Christianity. I never felt a burning love for God or profound faith, but intellectually, Catholicism made perfect sense to me in terms of Christianity. Protestants just didn’t get it. The problem was that I only looked at Catholicism in terms of Christianity. Compared to Protestantism and Orthodoxy, it still does make sense to me. But once I started thinking about the possibility that Christianity might not be true, then it all stopped making sense to me.

I used to say that I believed in Catholicism because it made sense to me intellectually. Even though I’ve never had religious experiences like other people do and never felt anything, I knew I was right. Now, I can’t say that. It doesn’t make sense to me. If I would be completely honest with myself, I’d probably say that intellectually I’m an atheist. Catholics I know that don’t have intellectual knowledge on God are able to fall back on some religious experience they’ve had. I don’t have that. I don’t think I intellectually believe in Catholicism and I haven’t felt anything. So what’s left? Fear of damnation. God help me.

Hebrews 11:6:
6”And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.”

I think the real key is seeking-earnestly.

But it still says it’s impossible to please God without faith.

I can only speak for myself but I left the Church at a young age, searched for truth in many places -with only a hope that there was such a thing as truth- and found to my own surprise that it led me back first to Christianity and ultimately to the CC. But the earnestness with which we want to know directly affects the degree to which we find it. And, like other posters have pointed out, sometimes we need to be aware of evil or be poor in spirit or recognize our unhealthiness, our sin, our need for healing, our helplessness or “lostness” before we get serious about responding to the voice we hear. But once we’re motivated, once it becomes important to us that we believe, then the rest falls into place. I think the CC could improve in explaining that once we’re confirmed or finished with our Catholic formal education, we may be Catholic in name but our job has just begun in terms of finding God.

Well, the one thing that I’ve always had (if you haven’t already noticed) is an extreme sense of guilt all the time. I’ve actually been told by a priest to stop going to confession so often.

In any case, I can’t believe that God would ever turn down a person who is sincerely asking, seeking, or knocking. He’ll answer.

I sure hope you’re right. But at the same time, there are a lot of things that God does that I would think that God would ever do.

BTW, we’re all atheists to begin with.

Actually, I’d say we all begin as Apathetic Agnostics.

 

[Awake]

Hi Awake,

Nice to meet you. Have prayed for you and included you in my Rosary intentions.

You’re reminding me of a teacher I had … the strictest nun I ever saw. Once, she spent the entire class period teaching us about Hell. You might say she was trying to scare the Hell out of us. And guess what? Sister Claudia is the only teacher to whom I’ve ever mailed a hand-written thank-you letter. I could see the love and concern for us behind her stern demeanor.

Thanks for sparking a memory of this nun that I still so much admire.

~~ the phoenix

Uh… you’re welcome?

 

[Awake]

Awake -
Your dilemma has sparked a very interesting thread - with many good replies, and your response above says it all. You want to be a Catholic, and your desire to be an atheist is held back by your desire to be a Catholic. 'Nuff said.

If you want to be a Catholic, then just let it happen - give it time. Don’t lose sleep over it - and don’t lose sleep over atheism which boasts that God does not exist.

I try to just let it happen, but it doesn’t work for me. I’ll tell myself “just keep going to church and don’t worry about it and you’ll be fine.” And then during Mass, the priest will say something in his homily or something will be read in one of the readings and I’ll think to myself “I don’t buy that. It makes so much more sense from an atheists perspective.” Then I’ll just think about that throughout the entire Mass and feel guilty and wonder if I should be receiving communion.

I know this isn’t what you’re saying, but I feel like people are telling me not to use my intellect. I feel like I’m being told “You don’t feel God, you don’t know God personally or intellectually, he doesn’t make sense to you, and you’ve never had a religious experience, so you should just go to church and stop thinking about it then. He’s real because I say so.”

Or have the Madelyn Murray O’Hares of the world appointed themselves “gods” telling you so? Atheists are selling you a bill of sales - don’t buy it.

Well, that is another thing that I would hate about being atheist: I can’t stand any of the mainstream atheists out there. I would hate to be associated with them.

And if atheism is causing you to lose sleep - think about that, too. God gives peace. He doesn’t ask you to stress towards religion. He asks that you simply come. I think most of us have motivation issues from time to time. Go to Church - whenever you can, as often as you feel you can - just sit there and talk to God. Never feel little is accomplished. Your effort, your presence has accomplished much - and He sees you. And He knows your doubts before you. Give God some credit - and a chance to work within you.

I just did this for an hour in church before mass today. It seemed like a complete waste of time. I pray sometimes because I know I should, but I always dread it because it’s long and boring and I always end up getting frustrated.

Keep trying / not stressing, Awake - and get some sleep! There is a God, and He loves you.

Sleep does sound good.

 

[Scanner]

I didn’t read all of the responses but here is my limited, non-properly-cathechized Catholic answer.

1. Part of faith is actually sticking through it even if you haven’t experienced a miracle. In fact, that is the definition of faith. If you have Mary making nightly visits to you in the form of apparitions well. . .it doesn’t take much faith, right?

I have the exact same feelings you do. I can’t really find what’s so holy about Church. I’d rather be with nature and could feel God’s presence there.

1. My limited understanding tells me that to get closer to God, you are to engage in prayer, fasting, and good works. Since prayer isn’t working for you, why not try fasting and good works and concentrating on those things?

I myself am a terrible prayerer and terrible Sabbath-keeper. Out of the 3, I find fasting the most connecting with God.

Maybe you need to get out of Church and do some good works/engage in charity to bring back a sense of fulfillment you seek.

I find the “triune” of connecting with God (prayer, fasting, good works) interesting. A lot of Catholics I know who are good prayers are less than charitable . . .and the charitable ones, less than reverent.

I think this is by design and there is some wisdom to it.

I am not trying to excuse you from Mass here. . .but maybe explore other parts of the Catholic faith and spirituality. It’s like you are eating meat and no veggies, starches or fruits.

Good luck.

 

[Awake]

I didn’t read all of the responses but here is my limited, non-properly-cathechized Catholic answer.

1. Part of faith is actually sticking through it even if you haven’t experienced a miracle. In fact, that is the definition of faith. If you have Mary making nightly visits to you in the form of apparitions well. . .it doesn’t take much faith, right?

I have the exact same feelings you do. I can’t really find what’s so holy about Church. I’d rather be with nature and could feel God’s presence there.

1. My limited understanding tells me that to get closer to God, you are to engage in prayer, fasting, and good works. Since prayer isn’t working for you, why not try fasting and good works and concentrating on those things?

I myself am a terrible prayerer and terrible Sabbath-keeper. Out of the 3, I find fasting the most connecting with God.

Maybe you need to get out of Church and do some good works/engage in charity to bring back a sense of fulfillment you seek.

I find the “triune” of connecting with God (prayer, fasting, good works) interesting. A lot of Catholics I know who are good prayers are less than charitable . . .and the charitable ones, less than reverent.

I think this is by design and there is some wisdom to it.

I am not trying to excuse you from Mass here. . .but maybe explore other parts of the Catholic faith and spirituality. It’s like you are eating meat and no veggies, starches or fruits.

Good luck.

Interesting thoughts. Thanks.

 

[cheeto1]

there are a lot of things that God does that I would think that God would ever do.

Hmm… especially if He wasn’t real…

I agree with scanner.

 

[Awake]

Hmm… especially if He wasn’t real…

I meant to say “wouldn’t”.

 

[cheeto1]

What is God doing that He wouldn’t do? (assuming that He is
real of course)

 

[Awake]

What is God doing that He wouldn’t do? (assuming that He is
real of course)

Well, I wasn’t going to make this thread about specific reasons I question Catholicism, but I’ll answer your question since you asked.

It bothers me that God commanded genocide in the Old Testament and it bothers me that so many things he commanded seem contrary to what Catholic philosophy teaches about God being loving and good. Even in the New Testament, there are things that don’t seem like they would be actions of a loving and forgiving God, such as Acts 5:1 - 5:10. I know that theologians like to explain all these incidents away by describing them as God being just or mere symbolism, but the fact these kind of things are so prevalent really makes me wonder. We’re taught that genocide is a terrible thing for us humans to commit, but when God does it, it’s okay. We just say that “he knows what he’s doing.”

Like I said earlier, I don’t question the existence of God because there is evil in the world. That’s a big hurdle for a lot of people. But what I have a problem with is God commanding evil or committing them himself.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

Hi Awake. My sympathies – I went through a very similar struggle when I was about 18. In fact, the story of Ananias and Saphira was one of the key points in my rejection of Christianity.

At the time, I was less grounded in the faith than you. And I must say that you’re making a better effort at seeking a Christian response than I did. When I hit a few stumbling blocks, I jumped to atheism pretty unreservedly. The next twelve years or so were ugly, in a number of ways. I pray that you don’t have to go through the same thing.

I fully understand your problem with God *apparently *commanding/committing evil. The OT certainly has some stories which are shocking to modern sensibilities. One thing that’s important to remember is that death isn’t the end of the story, and we can’t presume to judge based on one small part of the story.

For instance, the firstborn of Egypt. This is one of the skeptics’ favorites to demonstrate God’s “evil”. Superficially, their claim makes a certain amount of sense. But what if we replace “killed” with “transported to a place of eternal happiness”? All of a sudden God doesn’t look so bad. Granted that the parents of the children won’t like it – but is God under a moral obligation to provide each child with a certain length of life? As a parent, I consider each moment of my child’s life to be a gift. If my child dies before me, I’ll be heartbroken, but I can’t claim that God was unjust.

Well, I may make that claim out of sorrow, but my point is that the claim would not be rational.

A similar argument can be made about Ananias and Saphira, although it’s a little trickier since they apparently died in sin. We don’t know that for sure, though, and there’s certainly room to hope (and pray) that they were saved.

the priest will say something in his homily or something will be read in one of the readings and I’ll think to myself “I don’t buy that. It makes so much more sense from an atheists perspective.” Then I’ll just think about that throughout the entire Mass and feel guilty and wonder if I should be receiving communion.

I would be interested in an example of what makes more sense from an atheist’s perspective. It’s a lot easier to discuss specifics than generalities. Can you think of one ?

As for receiving communion – I’m no theologian, but I’m pretty sure we’re supposed to reflect on the readings/homily during Mass. I don’t think you should hesitate to receive, just on the grounds you mentioned here.

One more thought before I close. While I don’t want to push harder on the “scare you into believing” tack, you might want to consider the possibility that there’s an evil influence around you. Maybe try the St Michael prayer in the morning? He has a good track record against Satan. Worst case, it only takes a few seconds, so it’s not like you’re committing to a holy hour or something.

Although that would be good too.

God bless.

 

[cheeto1]

We’re taught that genocide is a terrible thing for us humans to commit, but when God does it, it’s okay.

I agree that it is terrible. Moses’ own wife said to God
“You are a God of blood to me.”
Still I agree with the apostles: “To whom shall we go? You have
the words of everlasting life”

 

[Awake]

Hi Awake. My sympathies – I went through a very similar struggle when I was about 18. In fact, the story of Ananias and Saphira was one of the key points in my rejection of Christianity.

At the time, I was less grounded in the faith than you. And I must say that you’re making a better effort at seeking a Christian response than I did. When I hit a few stumbling blocks, I jumped to atheism pretty unreservedly. The next twelve years or so were ugly, in a number of ways. I pray that you don’t have to go through the same thing.

I fully understand your problem with God *apparently *commanding/committing evil.

Thanks. This isn’t the only reason I question Catholicism, I just don’t want to get into everything here.

The OT certainly has some stories which are shocking to modern sensibilities. One thing that’s important to remember is that death isn’t the end of the story, and we can’t presume to judge based on one small part of the story.

For instance, the firstborn of Egypt. This is one of the skeptics’ favorites to demonstrate God’s “evil”. Superficially, their claim makes a certain amount of sense. But what if we replace “killed” with “transported to a place of eternal happiness”? All of a sudden God doesn’t look so bad.

Even if he did that, God commanding people to commit genocide goes against everything we’re every taught. The catechism even tells us that one is morally bound to resist order that command genocide. So I guess that means that Israelites should have actually resisted God’s command and refused to follow his will.

Granted that the parents of the children won’t like it – but is God under a moral obligation to provide each child with a certain length of life? As a parent, I consider each moment of my child’s life to be a gift. If my child dies before me, I’ll be heartbroken, but I can’t claim that God was unjust.

Well, I may make that claim out of sorrow, but my point is that the claim would not be rational.

God could have taken all these people in their sleep or allowed them to die a peaceful death. But no, rather he turned his chosen people into a pack of bloodthirsty wolves who brutally slaughtered people who were simply occupying territory that they wanted. That doesn’t seem like a loving thing to do.

A similar argument can be made about Ananias and Saphira, although it’s a little trickier since they apparently died in sin. We don’t know that for sure, though, and there’s certainly room to hope (and pray) that they were saved.

This whole story just confuses me. We hear all this stuff in the New Testament about love and forgiveness. We hear that God will forgive you no matter what you do.

Then along comes Ananias and Saphira. They sold their land to come follow the disciples, but they decided to hold a little of the money back for themselves. That doesn’t actually sound too unreasonable to me. They probably were figuring that this whole Christianity thing is new and might die out in a year, so we better have something just in case it’s not actually from God. If they were selfish, they wouldn’t have sold their land in the first place.

Granted that lying about it to Peter wasn’t the best thing, but it doesn’t seem like the worst thing in the world. Their faith wasn’t as strong as others who were 100% sure of Christianity, but they were doing a lot more than most were. And yet God strikes them dead for lying. It doesn’t seem like something a loving and forgiving God would do. A loving God would strengthen their faith so they would be able to let go of that extra money they were holding on to.

I would be interested in an example of what makes more sense from an atheist’s perspective. It’s a lot easier to discuss specifics than generalities. Can you think of one ?

Okay, I guess I just look back historically and how God was viewed. It used to be that people thought that the weather was all controlled by God and one had to pray for good weather. Prosperous weather was a sign of God showering his grace over you, while poor weather was a sign that God was punishing you, or testing you. Now we understand how weather patterns work and we are able to make extremely accurate predictions of future weather. People used to explain poor weather as a punishment from God, but now we can explain it in more accurate terms by air currents, solar activity, etc. It seems like people used God as a way to try to control things they did not have control over or understand.

Like a poster said earlier, she will pray to God that she will find a parking space. When she finds one, she praises God for being a loving God. When she doesn’t find one, she takes comfort in telling herself that it’s not God’s will. This just doesn’t make sense to me. What more sense is that she will find a parking space based on the number of cars in the parking lot and the total number of spaces.

I guess what I’m saying is that it just seems that people use God as a way to explain things they have no control over. Regardless of the outcome, they believe it’s a sign from God. People get comfort from the thought of an all-powerful deity bending backwards to answer all their requests. There are so many things we don’t have control over and don’t know all the variables, but once we know the variables, we stop relying on God. We don’t pray to God anymore for a solar eclipse because we know have all the variables exactly when it’s going to happen. Once you know how many cars there are and how many parking spots there are, chances are you wouldn’t pray to God for a spot to appear out of the sky and be open for you.

 

[Awake]

As for receiving communion – I’m no theologian, but I’m pretty sure we’re supposed to reflect on the readings/homily during Mass. I don’t think you should hesitate to receive, just on the grounds you mentioned here.

Well, I shouldn’t be receiving it I don’t believe in the Eucharist. During Mass, I’ll sometimes really start questioning if I believe and doubting.

 

[Awake]

I agree that it is terrible. Moses’ own wife said to God
“You are a God of blood to me.”
Still I agree with the apostles: “To whom shall we go? You have
the words of everlasting life”

That’s only if you already believe that Christianity is true.