tithing

[wcknight]

Tithing from scriptures means giving one tenth of your earning to God or charity. Throughout scriptures, gifts to God are to be of the “first fruits” of our labors.

The purest offerings, the best of the harvest belongs to the Lord. Giving to God should not be an after thought. What will it merit us IF we give out of our abundance ? If what we give means nothing to us and causes us no pain then we basically have given nothing. There is a reason that Old Testament offerings were called “sacrifices.”

No matter what we give, God returns it to us 100 fold. And yes, giving does not only mean money. Our time and our efforts to help the Church, the community and the poor also counts, Jesus tells us that whatever we do for the least, we do for Him.

BY all means use an envelope or mail in your contributions. That is between you and God. But the reality of the situation is that as a group Catholics are dismal when it comes to charitable giving and support for the Church and poor. Some are far beyond a joke, they would have to multipy their donations by a hundred fold to even reach a mockery of a joke.

Many are extremely generous, but far too few in numbers.

 

[Al_Masetti]

wcknight:

Tithing from scriptures means giving one tenth of your earning to God or charity. Throughout scriptures, gifts to God are to be of the “first fruits” of our labors.

The purest offerings, the best of the harvest belongs to the Lord. Giving to God should not be an after thought. What will it merit us IF we give out of our abundance ? If what we give means nothing to us and causes us no pain then we basically have given nothing. There is a reason that Old Testament offerings were called “sacrifices.”

No matter what we give, God returns it to us 100 fold. And yes, giving does not only mean money. Our time and our efforts to help the Church, the community and the poor also counts, Jesus tells us that whatever we do for the least, we do for Him.

BY all means use an envelope or mail in your contributions. That is between you and God. But the reality of the situation is that as a group Catholics are dismal when it comes to charitable giving and support for the Church and poor. Some are far beyond a joke, they would have to multipy their donations by a hundred fold to even reach a mockery of a joke.

Many are extremely generous, but far too few in numbers.

Yes, but what are the specific scriptural references.

And what does the CCC and canon law state.

 

[Myangel]

Originally Posted by Traditional Ang
Do you remember the story in the gospel about the “Widow’s Penny”?

*He sat down opposite the treasury and observed how the crowd put money into the treasury. Many rich people put in large sums. A poor widow also came and put in two small coins worth a few cents.

Calling his disciples to himself, he said to them, “Amen, I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all the other contributors to the treasury. For they have all contributed from their surplus wealth, but she, from her poverty, has contributed all she had, her whole livelihood.” Mark 12:41-44*

Let me give you a scenario, Say a person man or women, has a family, roof over their heads whether it be mortgaged or rented, bills, earns approx $350-400. per week. That person out of his wages has to pay rent/mortgage first and foremost, then put enough money away for bills and then HAVE to buy the necessities (i.e. food, medicine) for the family. By the end of the week they only have approx $10 - $15. If they went to Mass and put in that amount they would be that Poor Widow even thought they did not put in 10% of their wages.

The usual standard for tithing is 10% - I’ll let the Theologians and those in the Magisterium debate about whether that 10% of one’s before tax or one’s after tax income, or whether one can deduct reasonable rents and mortgages from the income subject to tithing. Although a roof over one’s head is obviously a necessity, I just can’t see a huge mortgage as a necessity.

Who said anything about a HUGE mortgage. Something that may be a small mortgage to you and I is a HUGE one to someone who is struggling.

If we realized the great gift of God we’ve been given, we’d do whatever is necessary to scrape together that 10% or something close to it, and we’d do this out of gratitude and so that others might be able to receive the gift.

Agreed, depending upon ones state in life.

I have a friend who’s a Secular Jew. Every year she gives some where around 10% of her income to charity. She has a mortgage and other expenses like everyone else, and she’s been doing this for several years. If a person who doesn’t know God can tithe, why can’t those who know Him do so?

Agreed. Again read above. If one has the means then yes they should be a little more generous. There are many Godless people who tithe more than any of us can. For many who do know God, only God can judge them on how much they tithe.

I understand that people have situations that make it difficiult to imagine that God would take care of us if we gave money to his Church. That’s the Evil One, and we’ve been listening to him for far too long.

God also never said that one had to be homeless or poor. Remember you are where God wants you to be. Employed or unemployed, wealthy or poor, family or no family. Without God you have nothing. One should be thanking him for their state in life. For those who are poor, well God depends on those who are wealthy to look out for them, and those wealthy would not be there if it were not for God.

 

[wcknight]

The scenario you suggest may be true for some folks but at least in my area it is only small fraction who are in that situation.

Plus even in your scenario, you have place God last not first. The truth of the matter is that most folks do not make God a priority and they will usually adjust their spending to what they make or what they have available to them.

It is the same thinking that goes into saving for the future. IF you “pay yourself first (or in this case pay God first)”, you will put aside what you need for the long haul.

The key to saving long term is to spend as if you make a lot less than you really do. Mormons succeed in donating a much larger percentage because they have already put aside that income BEFORE they take out all their expenses. They don’t necesarily make more than we do, (and I know some who make a lot less) but they get by anyway.

A few years back I talked to one of my mormon co-workers, and he was the only wage earner in his family with 2 kids and wife. He gave 10% to his church AND 3% to charity. I didn’t ask if it was before or after taxes, but regardless it was a heck of lot more than anyone I knew.

Some time after that I saw an article in a magazine, that confirmed that the average mormon gives about 13% of income to chruch and charities, while Catholics were dead last among Christian groups giving about 2.7 %. Most other Christians gave between 2.7 and 3.5 %.

That was maybe 10 or 15 years ago, I don’t know IF we have improved, but if we have it has not been by much.

I doubt St. Peter will have an account of your income and giving record come judgement day, but if he does Catholics may be in for a rude awakening.

 

[wcknight]

There is a joke that goes like this :

A man lives his whole life and does nothing significant, he is not particularly religious and he is not particularly kind or generous. He is neither particular bad or especially good.

He never gives, but one day he drops 50 cents into a collection plate. After many years he dies and is at the pearly gates. The angel at the gate looks at the book of life and is not sure what to do, He goes to St Peter and says, this guy at the gate has lived an uneventful life, he hasn’t done any thing bad or anything good, but some time ago he did drop 50 cents into the collection plate.

St. Peter pulls out 2 quarters and says to the angel, give him back his 50 cents and tell him to go to H***.

 

[otm]

LeahInancsi:

Since you didn’t understand the example I gave you, I put it plain words.

If you’re so upset with your parish that you are willing to withhold you tithe, the **GO TO ANOTHER PARISH! ** Do not make others pay your way at the parish you are unhappy with. :banghead:

I understood the example. I just disagreed that it was an example that had any real world meaning.

I am not upset with my parish. I don’t question the fact that others who are upset with their parish could go to another one. I am simply trying to answer the question of the OP; is it a sin to withhold an offering from one’s parish if one is seriouls upset with something about the parish?

It would appear obvious that one could simply go to another parish, until one realizes that some times that is not physically possible. If one lives in a large city, one could perhaps go to a different parwsih each week, and spen 1/4 to 1/2 of a year doing so before getting back to the first parish. If one lives in an isolated area, one might have to drive an hour or more each way just to find another parish, however.

The question was, is withholding a sin, not, is there another solution.

 

[LilyM]

To draw an analogy - why is it Church law that Mass may be missed if you’re working to genuinely support yourself and your family? Shouldn’t we be giving that ‘first fruits’ of our time to God and putting it above all other considerations, including work? Shouldn’t we have faith that God will provide for us if we give that time to him?

No - ‘God helps those who help themselves’. Remember the story of the good servants who used but also MULTIPLIED the gifts they had by their own shrewdness in business. It was NOT by giving away more than they could afford to part with and making themselves and their master poor.

Give yes, give generously, yes, but consider your (modest) needs and requirements and those of your dependents as well and do so sensibly.

 

[Myangel]

Originally Posted by wcknight
The scenario you suggest may be true for some folks but at least in my area it is only small fraction who are in that situation.

I agree, however they do exist.

Plus even in your scenario, you have place God last not first. The truth of the matter is that most folks do not make God a priority and they will usually adjust their spending to what they make or what they have available to them.

Adjusting ones spending to feed the family and keeping a roof over their heads is not putting God last, but rather protecting what gift God has given you.

A few years back I talked to one of my mormon co-workers, and he was the only wage earner in his family with 2 kids and wife. He gave 10% to his church AND 3% to charity. I didn’t ask if it was before or after taxes, but regardless it was a heck of lot more than anyone I knew.

I worked with a 7 Day Adventist, she was the youngest child eraned a pittence, suported her family by paying the bills and donated the 10% required from her family to their church. Her parents had to support all the children (3 of them) by buying food and paying the rent.

That was maybe 10 or 15 years ago, I don’t know IF we have improved, but if we have it has not been by much.

I hope so

I doubt St. Peter will have an account of your income and giving record come judgement day, but if he does Catholics may be in for a rude awakening.

Not doubting this one bit. I believe that if you give ALL you have, whether its 10%+ or less, it is pleasing to God. Its between the individual and God as to whether they have TRULY given all they have.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello Krystal,

It is sickening to me how little Catholics give to the poor. I have heard Catholics give less than 1% to God and the poor when it should be closer to 10%.

I volunteered for St. Vincent DePaul. We went out to meet with poor people who called for finacial assistance. When we got to the poor person’s home, the lead volunteer gave the poor person a pamphlet explaining how to get on State welfare, a pamplet as to how to get thousands of dollars from the State for heat, food stamps, medicade for children. Then, from Christ’s Church of 1.1 billion Catholics, we gave the poor person a twenty dollar voucher. These poor people, worried about being put out on the street, just looked at us in disbelief. One woman threw the voucher back in our faces and said why are you wasting my time. I have to find a way to stay in my appartment before State welfare can kick in. Get out of here! I felt like the Christian saying, “keep warm and well fed” but did nothing to help his neighbor in need in James 2:14.

Yes one should support ones parish and not use not donating as a weapon. However, I am sure that your Deacon would not complain if you were to give a full ten percent of your income to St. Vincent DePaul. It is a charity which needs donations badly.
NAB JAM 2:14

My brothers, what good is it to profess faith without practicing it? Such faith has no power to save one, has it? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and no food for the day, and you say to them, “Good-bye and good luck! Keep warm and well fed,” but do not meet their bodily needs, what good is that? so it is with the faith that does nothing in practice. It is thoroughly lifeless.

 

[otm]

LilyM:

To draw an analogy - why is it Church law that Mass may be missed if you’re working to genuinely support yourself and your family? Shouldn’t we be giving that ‘first fruits’ of our time to God and putting it above all other considerations, including work? Shouldn’t we have faith that God will provide for us if we give that time to him?

If the work is necessary - in other words, one is not able to find a suitable job that does not cause one to miss Mass, then one is not required to attend; however, most of the discussion is centered around the unavoidable occasions and not the constant missing Mass. So, if one were, for example, a fireman and there was a fir that required one to miss Mass, one would not be obligated to quit the scene of the fire and go to Mass; but if one were on duty on Sunday and would be available (on call with a pager, e.g.) one would still be required to go to Mass. One would not be forbidden to take the job, or even considered less than an active Catholic by taking such a job. that is not a lack of faith; it is a fact of life that sometimes circumstances intervene. It is not an issue of not having faith; it is an issue of circumstances beyond one’s control.

 

[otm]

Another part of the discussion that seems to be overlooked is the fact that part of the giving to the Church can be (and arguably should be) time spent, as well as money given. Whether that time is spent as an usher, or an extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion, or teaching children’s religious ed., or cleaning up the groundsof the church, or washing and ironing the linens, or whatever, we all could do a bit, and a bit more, in volunteer work. Money argualble is what we are given for the time we spend working; it is the exchange. If one earns whatever dollar rate per hour, and whether one gives pre tax or post tax in determining a fair share, part of that fair share can be legitimately considered for the most part, as part of the fair share in terms of hours donated instead of dollars donated.

 

[wcknight]

I have absolutely no problem with folks who can NOT afford to give more or who can not afford to give anything at all. They know who they are.

It’s folks who can afford to give a whole lot more but simply don’t. As I said, our parish is one of the most affluent in the country. Seven digit homes are the norm not the exception. Six digit incomes is typical for most households. BUT what typically goes into the collection basket is scandalous. With 1500+ parisioners, we average less than $10 per person.

We’re not even meeting 1%, it’s much more like one tenth or 1/100 of one percent. People in our parish are not starving or homeless. No one is below the proverty line. We are in one of the top 10 income areas (if not top 5) of the entire country. There is no shortage of disposable income.

Kids from Penn State travel down a couple of hundred miles to our area to collect donations for their fund raisers. They know where the money is.

The problem is NOT lack of income, but lack of generousity.

 

[wcknight]

otm, I agree with you 100% but all too often it is the very same folks who give generously of their money who also volunteer to help out at Church and in the community.

Most folks who don’t give to the collection plate, don’t usually volunteer either.

When I’m recruiting for the Knights and collecting for a fund raiser, folks who give very generously are much more likely to join than those who only give a little or not at all.

 

[neweyes]

Here’s a question for the 10-percenters:

Is that 10 percent fro the NET or GROSS income?

 

[Cristiano]

neweyes:

Here’s a question for the 10-percenters:

Is that 10 percent fro the NET or GROSS income?

It should be 10 percent of the GROSS income. However my understanding is that we are returning to God a part of what we received and that it should be a sacrifice. If 10 percent does not feel as a true sacrifice, then we should give more. If 10 percent will affect things like medical expenses for your family, then I guess you can give less.

I originally come from Europe where tithing is not always part of the common culture. It was a shock when here in the USA my pastor started to mention the 10 percent. Now it is part of my budget and I look forward to giving a part of my money back. I can assure you that I have seen that the more I give, the more I get in return one way or the other.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Cristiano:

It should be 10 percent of the GROSS income. However my understanding is that we are returning to God a part of what we received and that it should be a sacrifice. If 10 percent does not feel as a true sacrifice, then we should give more. If 10 percent will affect things like medical expenses for your family, then I guess you can give less.

I originally come from Europe where tithing is not always part of the common culture. It was a shock when here in the USA my pastor started to mention the 10 percent. Now it is part of my budget and I look forward to giving a part of my money back. I can assure you that I have seen that the more I give, the more I get in return one way or the other.

Please provide direct quotations from CCC, canon law and Sacred Scripture.

 

[Cristiano]

Al Masetti:

Please provide direct quotations from CCC, canon law and Sacred Scripture.

The discussion between 10 percent gross or net is simply due to a contemporary relativistic approach. It has nothing to do with the Bible or CCC.

The discussion about giving as a sacrifice thus not being fixed to a 10 percent was discussed by Bishop Gregory Aymond of the Archdioceses of Austin, TX in the weekly catholic newsletter of the dioceses or the in its website (within the last 6 months). It was an article about stewardship. I apologize for not being able to provide the link.

 

[Jeanette_L]

Cristiano:

It should be 10 percent of the GROSS income. However my understanding is that we are returning to God a part of what we received and that it should be a sacrifice. If 10 percent does not feel as a true sacrifice, then we should give more. If 10 percent will affect things like medical expenses for your family, then I guess you can give less.

I originally come from Europe where tithing is not always part of the common culture. It was a shock when here in the USA my pastor started to mention the 10 percent. Now it is part of my budget and I look forward to giving a part of my money back. I can assure you that I have seen that the more I give, the more I get in return one way or the other.

This 10% Tithe originated in the Levitical Law for the Jews as not only a Temple tax but also to fund the governing of the Israelites, as I understand it. It is an extremely common Protestant, and more specifically Fundamentalist/Evangelical argument that Christians are still under this Jewish law, whereas New Testament writings didn’t enforce the Jewish law, but directed the Christian community to be generous and give as they were able, each according to his ability.

You would be hardpressed to find many Fund/Evang. teaching anything less than 10% of GROSS income, but I think the current Catholic teaching is more in accord with New Testament directives.

 

[otm]

Cristiano:

It should be 10 percent of the GROSS income. However my understanding is that we are returning to God a part of what we received and that it should be a sacrifice. If 10 percent does not feel as a true sacrifice, then we should give more. If 10 percent will affect things like medical expenses for your family, then I guess you can give less.

I originally come from Europe where tithing is not always part of the common culture. It was a shock when here in the USA my pastor started to mention the 10 percent. Now it is part of my budget and I look forward to giving a part of my money back. I can assure you that I have seen that the more I give, the more I get in return one way or the other.

I think that arguing that 10% comes from gross income assumes that there is control over what is taken out; taxes (if you are getting a paycheck, as opposed to owning a business) are automatic and you have extremely little or now control over it; further, with the exception of social Security, you have almost no return from what the governement takes.

What you get at the end is what you have to divide up between food, clothing, housing, transportation (and for many, a good portion to medical - either direct, or in payments on insurance).

While giving 10% of gross may give you a bigger deduction at tax time, it is effectively a portion of a portion that you do not send to the tax man. And given the fact that the taxes are taken out before you receieve anything - in other words, the employer pays the taxes, not you - the gross figure has little or nothing to do with the average person’s real world.

Every one is free to give what they choose to give; and if they choose to give greater than 10% of their net, they are free to do so. It is, however, a matter that the Church does not dictate. We need to give, and give generously, and we are each given the responsibility to determine what that really means, how that is really defined. Materialism is insidious. I have, however, seen people who do not exercise fiscal responsibility on the other end of the spectrum either.

 

[otm]

Cristiano:

The discussion between 10 percent gross or net is simply due to a contemporary relativistic approach. It has nothing to do with the Bible or CCC.

I fail to see how this is a relativistic question or a relativistic discussion, as you have almost no control over gross/net issues; your employer pays the tax that is due to the government and gives you what is left over. You never “have” the gross; you only have the net. At the end of the month (or beginning, or whatever - when you have your paycheck), that is all the money you are going to have. It may be quite a bit, or it may be very little, or somewhere in between. but that is the sum total you are getting. Saying that you must pay 10% of a part of money that you never had control over leaves one to ask, how is it that your duty extends to what you do not have? Just because someone said that is how much money you are “getting”? You never get it. The Government dictates that so much money will be “extracted” from what you “get”, but the fact of the matter is that it is simply another way of looking at a formula that says that if you are going to receive “X” amount of cash from your employer, your employer will pay “Y” amount to the government for the privilege of employing you. And by the way, that “Y” is greater than the amount they show they"took" from you to give to the government (they didn’t “take it” from you, as you never had possession and control over it).