tithing

[Eileen_T]

Kimberley Hahn has a talk on Tithing:Christian Stewardship sonsofthunder.net/02_10_99.html

BTW, Mormons tithe because that is part of the requirement they believe will lead to them becoming a god of their own world after they die in this one.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Keep in mind that the 10% of the Old Testament was to provide for “welfare”… payments to be made to widows, crippled, and etc… as well as for the temple… which made the distributions to the poor and needy.

Over the years, the secular governments took over the “welfare” function… so a lot of the tithe is already taken care of with the taxes we pay.

[It shouldn’t really be that way, but that’s the way things have evolved. I read (don’t know how true this is) that in England, the Church had a highly developed system for taking care of the indigent. The system got corrupted and that when you see someone living in a house with the name of somekind of Abbey, then you know that it used to be some sort of Church run poor house that got seized and given to a friend of the king.]

In any event, if Catholic behavior is supposed to be governed by the Catechism and by canon law, and if tithing is a Catholic function, then somewhere in there, there should be some fairly explicit guidance for Catholics.

It may be that “tithing” never really WAS Catholic, but rather was something “borrowed” from Protestant denominations.

 

[Steven_Merten]

I look upon tithing as a point at which one can purchase those extras in life without being guilty of sin through murdering the poor by lack of charity.

Jesus strongly and clearly tells us that charity to the poor will be a big part on judgement day as to whether a soul goes to heaven through Him or hell. In Christ’s Lazerous and the rich man story, to simply not support the poor is to murder the poor and carries the punishment of eternal damnation.

So if so few Christians are giving money to keep the poor from dying, does this put the whole entire burden on those Christians who do love Jesus through charity to the poor? Understanding God’s will of a tithe gives us an individual level of responsibility. Beyond this level of a tithe we are no longer murderers for not caring for the poor. After a tithe is accomplished and maintained, one can now take those vacations, buy computors, tvs, cable access, new cars and not be guilty of the sin of murdering the poor through lack of charity.

If one is not able to tithe but is only buying neccessities, I cannot see how Jesus and the Father would be upset with them. If one is giving their tithe through personal time and effort rather than through money, exellent. It is those who buy luxuries and extras for themselves before they maintain a tithe who are the ones guilty of sin, hatred and murdering the poor through lack of charity.

If one goes beyond a tithe, out of love for Jesus through the least of His brothers, this is awesome.

NAB MAT 25:31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ **Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. **For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ **And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."**LUK 16:19 The Rich Man and Lazarus

"There was a rich man who dressed in purple garments and fine linen and dined sumptuously each day. And lying at his door was a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who would gladly have eaten his fill of the scraps that fell from the rich man’s table. Dogs even used to come and lick his sores. When the poor man died, he was carried away by angels to the bosom of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried, and from the netherworld, where he was in torment, he raised his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he cried out, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me. Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering torment in these flames.’ Abraham replied, ‘My child, remember that you received what was good during your lifetime while Lazarus likewise received what was bad; but now he is comforted here,** whereas you are tormented. Moreover, between us and you a great chasm is established to prevent anyone from crossing who might wish to go from our side to yours or from your side to ours**.’

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Al Masetti:

I have heard a lot about tithing. Where in the Catechism of the Catholic Church or in the canon law does it specify the 10% number?

Al Masetti:

It’s in the Bible.

In Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Al Masetti:

Coming from what is arguably [one of ] the most expensive cost of living areas of the country, I am reluctant to state what other people are capable of affording.

Al MAsetti:

I’ve found that people can afford to pay for the things that are their priorities. If the Church becomes the priority to Catgholics that their souls were to their Lord, they would find some way to tithe, if not financially, then with their time working for the Parish.

We’re going into Holy Week and good Friday, that’s they day our Lord gave His life for us. I wonder what He would have done if He would have asked if He could have afforded to go through with the sacrifice.

The tithe should be freely offerred in gratitude for all the great gifts of God which are too numerous to list.

Please don’t tell me people can’t afford it - I’ve seen enough of those who can’t afford to tithe willingly paying $4.00+ for a cup of coffee and a danish each day at Starbucks.

In Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Al Masetti:

Keep in mind that the 10% of the Old Testament was to provide for “welfare”… payments to be made to widows, crippled, and etc… as well as for the temple… which made the distributions to the poor and needy.

Over the years, the secular governments took over the “welfare” function… so a lot of the tithe is already taken care of with the taxes we pay.

[It shouldn’t really be that way, but that’s the way things have evolved. I read (don’t know how true this is) that in England, the Church had a highly developed system for taking care of the indigent. The system got corrupted and that when you see someone living in a house with the name of somekind of Abbey, then you know that it used to be some sort of Church run poor house that got seized and given to a friend of the king.]

In any event, if Catholic behavior is supposed to be governed by the Catechism and by canon law, and if tithing is a Catholic function, then somewhere in there, there should be some fairly explicit guidance for Catholics.

It may be that “tithing” never really WAS Catholic, but rather was something “borrowed” from Protestant denominations.

Al Masetti:

If you study the Torah intently, you’ll see that the total was more like 30%, and that people were to leave all sorts of things for the poor who weren’t able to make it to the Temple.

The Bible is the Church’s Book. We’re supposed to try to live by it to the best of our abilities.

The Early Church lived in community and shared most of their possessions in common. If we tried to live like that, Catholics would be giving a lot more than tithes to the Church, and Catholics wouldn’t be applying for welfare.

I noted in a previous post about a SECULAR JEW who lives in one of the most expensive areas of this country and still gives about 10% of her income each year to charity. If she can do it, why can’t those who are supposed to be expression gratitude to the Lord of the Univrese for the greatest gift of all be able to do so?

In Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Al Masetti:

Please provide direct quotations from CCC, canon law and Sacred Scripture.

Al Masetti:

Catechism of the Catholic Church - VI. Love For the Poor

2449 *Beginning with the Old Testament, all kinds of juridical measures (the jubilee year of forgiveness of debts, prohibition of loans at interest and the keeping of collateral, the obligation to TITHE, the daily payment of the day-laborer, the right to glean vines and fields) answer the exhortation of Deuteronomy: "For the poor will never cease out of the land; therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor in the land.’"248 Jesus makes these words his own: "The poor you always have with you, but you do not always have me."249 In so doing he does not soften the vehemence of former oracles against “buying the poor for silver and the needy for a pair of sandals . . .,” but invites us to recognize his own presence in the poor who are his brethren:250

When her mother reproached her for caring for the poor and the sick at home, St. Rose of Lima said to her: "When we serve the poor and the sick, we serve Jesus. We must not fail to help our neighbors, because in them we serve Jesus.251 *

Notes:

248 ? Deut 15:11.
249 ? Jn 12:8.
250 Am 8:6; cf. ? Mt 25:40.
251 P. Hansen, Vita mirabilis (Louvain, 1668).

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P8F.HTM#K2

Please read the rest of what’s on the page. We’re supposed to tithe so that we, as Catholics. can take take care if the needs of other Cathoics when they are in need instead of forcing them to rely on the horrible, demeaning and dehumanizing welfare bureaucracy. We’re also supposed to do it out of GRATITUDE for all of God’s gifts to us.

In Christ, Michael

 

[otm]

Traditional Ang:

Al Masetti:

It’s in the Bible.

In Christ, Michael

that is true. However there are other things in the bible; for example, Paul says that we are not bound any longer by the (Mosic) Law, of which tithing is a part.

 

[whatevergirl]

It is a moral duty to tithe, yes…but, I think people are wondering what is happening to the money, since the Deacon is probably making a considerable salary as opposed to the priest that was there, prior.

As much as we have a moral duty to tithe, and I would continue to do, I would also want a financial statement (and my church sends this home every quarter) of how the money is being used, in particular, what is the Deacon getting paid? I’m sure he’s not raking it in, LOL–But, it could be also part of the parishioners concern.

 

[otm]

whatevergirl:

It is a moral duty to tithe, yes…but, I think people are wondering what is happening to the money, since the Deacon is probably making a considerable salary as opposed to the priest that was there, prior.

As much as we have a moral duty to tithe, and I would continue to do, I would also want a financial statement (and my church sends this home every quarter) of how the money is being used, in particular, what is the Deacon getting paid? I’m sure he’s not raking it in, LOL–But, it could be also part of the parishioners concern.

If the Deacon’s diocese operates as ours does, then he is paid by the diocese, not the parish. and that salary would probably be scaled according to the diocese, not simply a random or negotiated salary for that specific position.

 

[whatevergirl]

I agree with you, but perception is reality, though. And the Dioceses receive their money, ultimately from parish tithes. I still think a financial statement should be sent home–you have a right to know how your church uses its money. Sorry…off topic, but just my 2 cents.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

otm:

that is true. However there are other things in the bible; for example, Paul says that we are not bound any longer by the (Mosic) Law, of which tithing is a part.

otm:

That’s why I quoted from the CCC and Steve Marten quoted the Gospels of Mark and Luke. Although we’re no longer bound by things such as the Sabbath and Circumcision, we’re still bound to help our fellow Christians and to give back to God what is God’s.

It seems that we can find all sorts of reasons to figure out reasons for not doing this, but they really shouldn’t hold any water against our Lord’s commands and our obligations to each other.

The question shouldn’t be whether to tithe, but where to send the tithes when we can’t, in good conscience, send them to our local parishes.

In Christ, Michael

 

[Cristiano]

whatevergirl:

I agree with you, but perception is reality, though. And the Dioceses receive their money, ultimately from parish tithes. I still think a financial statement should be sent home–you have a right to know how your church uses its money. Sorry…off topic, but just my 2 cents.

Why do we have a right to know? We are not purchasing a service. This is almsgiving! We sacrifice to God, and it should be done without showing off. I am really frustated by what I consider some hard hearted postings that I am reading (I am not specifically referring to the quoted one). If we really want to help with parish finances we volunteer with time and/or money. If we have issues with evident unethical behaviors we go to the Bishop. If we are just confused, we get down on our knees and pray.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Traditional Ang:

It seems that we can find all sorts of reasons to figure out reasons for not doing this, but they really shouldn’t hold any water against our Lord’s commands and our obligations to each other.

In Christ, Michael

Hello Michael,

I agree with your evaluation of the situation.

My question is if billions of Christians (the Church) say let the poor die because they are not giving up their wealth in a tithe, why should the State care. Who goes to heaven for feeding the poor out of love for Jesus, the State or the Church? If Christians cannot find it in their hearts or in their New Testament scriptures to give enough to keep the poor from starving to death why should this cause a Church emergency to get the State to pay more?

The average tax payer pays 17% of his income in tax. This tax goes to build roads, fire and police, parks, military, prisons, natural resourses departments ect. (the list goes on and on) and America still has enough left over to blast the Church (billions of Christians) out of the water when it comes to domestic and foreign aid to the poor. If billions of Christians payed 10% of their income to God, as God commands, this would generate trillions of dollars and wipe starvation and poverty from the plannet.

I was greatly offended in Pope John Paul II demands that the “World Bank” (world taxpayers) forgive third world debt. Never did he demand the Christ’s Church pay off third world debt. Does the “World Bank” go to heaven for feeding the poor? Bishops and priests at Mass give long political sermons on what the State should be doing for the poor. If only they would devote a little time on how Catholic donation levels are an abomination to God. If only Church leaders would clarify that the Church (billions of Christians) give a pitance to keep the poor from dying before they attack the State to give beyond the tremendous level that the State already is giving.

Regardless of how much Christians hate sermons on tithing and giving to the poor to keep them from starving to death, I think this is where the Church should put her sermon time. We don’t want such a vast number of Christians claiming “invincible ignorance” while they are burning in hell, as Jesus teaches He will do to those Christians who do not properly support the poor through charity.

 

[otm]

Traditional Ang:

otm:
It seems that we can find all sorts of reasons to figure out reasons for not doing this, but they really shouldn’t hold any water against our Lord’s commands and our obligations to each other.

that is correct. However, the alternaive is not to go bak to the Mosaic law, but to follow the law of the Gospel, which if read with an open heart might indicate a requirement to do much more (for some) than a simple tithe - 10%. It is a little along the line of the Synoptics’ story of the young man who asks Christ what he must do to gain eternal life; where the “rubber meets the road” is in Christ’s request that he sell all, and come, follow Him.
Traditional Ang:

The question shouldn’t be whether to tithe, but where to send the tithes when we can’t, in good conscience, send them to our local parishes.

Yes, that is what the OP was asking, or rather, what the OP was related to.

 

[Steven_Merten]

otm:

that is correct. However, the alternaive is not to go bak to the Mosaic law, but to follow the law of the Gospel, which if read with an open heart might indicate a requirement to do much more (for some) than a simple tithe - 10%. It is a little along the line of the Synoptics’ story of the young man who asks Christ what he must do to gain eternal life; where the “rubber meets the road” is in Christ’s request that he sell all, and come, follow Him.

Hello otm,

To obey God’s commandments was Jesus answer to the man’s question, “What must I do to share in everlasting life?”

Selling all he had and giving up wife and children to follow Christ was Christ’s answer to what one should do if they seek perfection.

It is good to have preists, nuns and monks to give up spouces and children for Christ. It would be kind of hard to have a two thousand year old Church if all Church members had to give up spouces and children to travel a perfection only path to heaven.

You seem to have an either or understanding of scriptures. Either a tithe is in New Testament or it isent. If tithing was not restated in New Testament then Chrisitans are free to give as little to the poor as they care to regardless of how many poor people starve to death. Is this your feeling on Christian donations?

NAB MAT 19:16

The dangers of riches. Another time a man came up to him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?” He answered, “Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." “Which ones?” he asked. Jesus replied “You shall not kill”; ‘You shall not commit adultery’; ‘You shall not steal’; ‘You shall not bear false witness’; ‘Honor your father and mother’; and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” The young man said to him, “I have kept all these; what do I need to do further?” Jesus told him, “If you seek perfection, go, sell your possessions, and give to the poor. You will then have treasure in heaven. Afterward, come back and follow me.” Hearing these words, the young man went away sad, for his possessions were many…

…Moreover, everyone who has given up home, brothers or sisters, father or mother, wife or children or property **for my sake **will recieve many times as much and inherit everlasting life.

 

[whatevergirl]

Cristiano:

Why do we have a right to know? We are not purchasing a service. This is almsgiving! We sacrifice to God, and it should be done without showing off. I am really frustated by what I consider some hard hearted postings that I am reading (I am not specifically referring to the quoted one). If we really want to help with parish finances we volunteer with time and/or money. If we have issues with evident unethical behaviors we go to the Bishop. If we are just confused, we get down on our knees and pray.

God gave us a brain–to use it wisely. He didn’t say to just give your money, aimlessly, without His discernment. You have a right to know what the Church THAT YOU SUPPORT does with God’s/your money. This is not a bad thing. It’s a wise thing. Suppose the funds were being misappropriated? Suppose eventually your church had to close because of poor financing? Wouldn’t you want an opportunity to speak up, to help a church do better with its spending? American Red Cross and other such charities have financial reports posted PUBLICLY on websites, for all to see. Now, that is non religious, but still–it’s a charity. And, for that matter, you don’t have to give to a parish, in order for that to be tithing. “Give to God what is His,” it’s stated in the Bible. Not give to I wholeheartedly tithe to my church, and Catholic organizations–and believe in it with all of heart and mind. But, I also think it’s my right as a parishioner to know how the funds are allocated at my church.

 

[Steven_Merten]

whatevergirl:

God gave us a brain–to use it wisely. He didn’t say to just give your money, aimlessly, without His discernment. You have a right to know what the Church THAT YOU SUPPORT does with God’s/your money. This is not a bad thing. It’s a wise thing. Suppose the funds were being misappropriated? Suppose eventually your church had to close because of poor financing? Wouldn’t you want an opportunity to speak up, to help a church do better with its spending? American Red Cross and other such charities have financial reports posted PUBLICLY on websites, for all to see. Now, that is non religious, but still–it’s a charity. And, for that matter, you don’t have to give to a parish, in order for that to be tithing. “Give to God what is His,” it’s stated in the Bible. Not give to I wholeheartedly tithe to my church, and Catholic organizations–and believe in it with all of heart and mind. But, I also think it’s my right as a parishioner to know how the funds are allocated at my church.

Hello whatevergirl,

I agree with you.

I once had a conversation with a Protestant. We were discussing how Jimmy Baker built a mantion for his mother inlaw. Supposedly he was collecting donations for a school for handicapped children. The mansion had no elevator but only stairs. Handicapped children? The dog house outside was airconditioned.

The Protestant argued that as long as the people donated in good faith to help the less fortunate, all was ok. They felt the media had no bussiness in how the charity funds were spent. Evil!

Archbishop Weekland in the Milwaukee archdioseas used archdiosean money, half million dollars, to pay off his ex-gay lover to keep his mouth shut. Do I want my donation dollars to the poor being diverted by an Archbishop to keep his past gay romance a secret from me? Evil!
seattlecatholic.com/article_20020607_Archbishop_Weaklands_Legacy.html

I firmly agree with you that we have and obligation to God to keep our donated sacrifice to God from being squandered by the wicked. We must do this to the best of our ability.

 

[whatevergirl]

Hmmm…you said that better than me, Steven! LOL
Thanks for the reply.

 

[Cristiano]

I guess you are right! Better trust ourselves in policing the Church because God is unable to do it himself.