TLC's "All American Muslims"

[bhshockeymom62]

jam, can you tell me where you came to the conculsion that we “all” worship the same god?:

Christianity: The God revealed to us in the Bible is, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Islam: allah is not triune, is not to be called father and has no son

Christianity: God is love and full of forgiveness
Islam: allah is a god of hate and no forgiveness

Christianity: Jesus is God (Matt 17:5 Mark 1:1 Luke 1:35
Islam: Jesus is a prophet and rejects the divinity of Jesus (Koran 4:171. 5:114, 19:92

Christianity: Jesus was pre-existant to creation (Gen. 2:6, 3:22, Isaiah 48:12, 16) there are a ton more too
Islam: Jesus was a created being ( 3:55, 58

Christianity: Man is born into sin (Gen 3, 5:3, Romans 5:12,14…there are a ton more
Islam: rejects original sin (53:38, 6-165, 99:7,8

Christianity: Salvation only comes through Jesus (Acts 4:12 there are a ton more
Islam:Salvation only comes through obeying allah and mohammed (3:85,5:10,25:68,48:13

Islam denies Jesus’ crusifiction and death and resurrection (4:154-158

This is just the start. Jesus states in John 14:6 "I am the way the truth and the life, NO ONE comes to the Father except through ME.

If you say all religions lead to God then Jesus is lying.

The Jewish people also need Jesus for salvation.

 

[jam070406]

jam, can you tell me where you came to the conculsion that we “all” worship the same god?:

Christianity: The God revealed to us in the Bible is, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Islam: allah is not triune, is not to be called father and has no son

Christianity: God is love and full of forgiveness
Islam: allah is a god of hate and no forgiveness

Christianity: Jesus is God (Matt 17:5 Mark 1:1 Luke 1:35
Islam: Jesus is a prophet and rejects the divinity of Jesus (Koran 4:171. 5:114, 19:92

Christianity: Jesus was pre-existant to creation (Gen. 2:6, 3:22, Isaiah 48:12, 16) there are a ton more too
Islam: Jesus was a created being ( 3:55, 58

Christianity: Man is born into sin (Gen 3, 5:3, Romans 5:12,14…there are a ton more
Islam: rejects original sin (53:38, 6-165, 99:7,8

Christianity: Salvation only comes through Jesus (Acts 4:12 there are a ton more
Islam:Salvation only comes through obeying allah and mohammed (3:85,5:10,25:68,48:13

Islam denies Jesus’ crusifiction and death and resurrection (4:154-158

This is just the start. Jesus states in John 14:6 "I am the way the truth and the life, NO ONE comes to the Father except through ME.

If you say all religions lead to God then Jesus is lying.

The Jewish people also need Jesus for salvation.

It says it in the catechism of the Catholic Church. Section 841, I believe.

 

[ringil]

Heck, why even convert at all? We worship the same God. I’m alright, you’re alright!

I don’t get the point of your post. It doesn’t address my question to the OP.

 

[ringil]

jam, can you tell me where you came to the conculsion that we “all” worship the same god?:

Christianity: The God revealed to us in the Bible is, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Islam: allah is not triune, is not to be called father and has no son

Christianity: God is love and full of forgiveness
Islam: allah is a god of hate and no forgiveness

Christianity: Jesus is God (Matt 17:5 Mark 1:1 Luke 1:35
Islam: Jesus is a prophet and rejects the divinity of Jesus (Koran 4:171. 5:114, 19:92

Christianity: Jesus was pre-existant to creation (Gen. 2:6, 3:22, Isaiah 48:12, 16) there are a ton more too
Islam: Jesus was a created being ( 3:55, 58

Christianity: Man is born into sin (Gen 3, 5:3, Romans 5:12,14…there are a ton more
Islam: rejects original sin (53:38, 6-165, 99:7,8

Christianity: Salvation only comes through Jesus (Acts 4:12 there are a ton more
Islam:Salvation only comes through obeying allah and mohammed (3:85,5:10,25:68,48:13

Islam denies Jesus’ crusifiction and death and resurrection (4:154-158

This is just the start. Jesus states in John 14:6 "I am the way the truth and the life, NO ONE comes to the Father except through ME.

If you say all religions lead to God then Jesus is lying.

The Jewish people also need Jesus for salvation.

It’s written clearly in the Catechism that we worship the same God as the Muslims and the Jews. That is Doctrine.

 

[Contarini]

In case you have not seen the coming attractions or the show itself TLC now has a show documenting the life of Muslims living in America. In one episode though it shows the fiance of a muslim woman converting from Catholicism to Islam. I was sick to my stomach seeing this, I do not know why TLC would show this. It was just so upsetting for me to see this. I am now personally boycotting TLC and advocating all my friends do the same. I am also going to send letters telling them how this was completely inappropriate. To show anyone changing their religion on regular television, I feel, is too sensitive of a subject to show, any religion. How do all of you feel about this show?

I wish you would reconsider. You’re just feeding into the worst form of “political correctness” and contributing to the secularization of society.

It’s not inappropriate at all–people change their religions and it’s a legitimate story to talk about. Would you really feel that way if they had a story about someone becoming Catholic? If you would, then you are consistent, but I still think you’re wrong. This is part of human behavior–and contrary to the foolish modern dictum, religion isn’t private. It’s a communal matter, and an entirely appropriate subject for “regular television.”

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Heck, why even convert at all? We worship the same God. I’m alright, you’re alright!

Non sequitur. It is not part of traditional Christian belief that simply “worshiping the same God” means that someone is “all right.”

One can, after all, be a perfectly orthodox Catholic and go to hell.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Heck, why even convert at all? We worship the same God. I’m alright, you’re alright!

Non sequitur. It is not part of traditional Christian belief that simply “worshiping the same God” means that someone is “all right.”

One can, after all, be a perfectly orthodox Catholic and go to hell

It is quite clearly a traditional Christian belief (and not, as people seem to believe, some sort of liberal innovation) that all monotheists worship the one God.

And no, people who worship Satan or a tree are not, by definition, monotheists. Monotheism is not just worshiping a single superhuman being (the technical term for that is “henotheism”), but worshiping the one Source of all being (and thus of all goodness, since goodness and being are convertible) rather than worshiping a plurality of superhuman beings.

Edwin

 

[jam070406]

Non sequitur. It is not part of traditional Christian belief that simply “worshiping the same God” means that someone is “all right.”

One can, after all, be a perfectly orthodox Catholic and go to hell

It is quite clearly a traditional Christian belief (and not, as people seem to believe, some sort of liberal innovation) that all monotheists worship the one God.

And no, people who worship Satan or a tree are not, by definition, monotheists. Monotheism is not just worshiping a single superhuman being (the technical term for that is “henotheism”), but worshiping the one Source of all being (and thus of all goodness, since goodness and being are convertible) rather than worshiping a plurality of superhuman beings.

Edwin

It was sarcasm.

 

[jam070406]

I don’t get the point of your post. It doesn’t address my question to the OP.

Why would she be upset seeing a Muslim convert to Catholicism?

 

[Contarini]

It was sarcasm.

I got that. But it was misguided sarcasm.

If I said, sarcastically, as a non-Catholic: “Oh, of course, I see the light, all my Protestant friends and relatives are going to hell so I’d better become Catholic so I don’t burn with them,” you would, I suspect, point out that my sarcasm was misguided and that the Catholic Church did not teach that Protestants who act in good faith are necessarily going to hell.

So here.

Edwin

 

[jam070406]

I got that. But it was misguided sarcasm.

If I said, sarcastically, as a non-Catholic: “Oh, of course, I see the light, all my Protestant friends and relatives are going to hell so I’d better become Catholic so I don’t burn with them,” you would, I suspect, point out that my sarcasm was misguided and that the Catholic Church did not teach that Protestants who act in good faith are necessarily going to hell.

So here.

Edwin

You’re the only one talking about people going to hell. I’m not sure a Catholic abandoning the Christian Faith for Islam is someone acting in good faith. Witnessing it was a scandal to the OP.

 

[bhshockeymom62]

It’s written clearly in the Catechism that we worship the same God as the Muslims and the Jews. That is Doctrine.

So then the RC church denies that Athanasian Creed?

The Athanasian Creed
Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.

But the Catholic faith is this, that we venerate one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in oneness; neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance; for there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit; but the divine nature of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is one, their glory is equal, their majesty is coeternal.

(it is the longest of the creeds, you can look it up to read the rest of it)

The Athanasian Creed

This is the Athanasian Creed, as used in the Roman Catholic Church. It’s used in the liturgy only rarely (sometimes on Trinity Sunday), but like all of the Church’s creeds, it is still valid and respected.

Although no longer officially attributed to St. Athanasius (died in 373 A.D.), it still bears his name. This beautiful creed contains a detailed meditation on the nature of the Trinity.

The Athanasian Creed is also called the Quicumque vult, after its first words in Latin.

This creed can also be found in the Handbook of Prayers, edited by James Socias.

Since I am not RC I would like to ask that if RC’s put their catechism above the Bible? Above the exact words of Jesus? This was not always the claim of the RC when did it change? The statement that muslims and jews worship the same god was written by man not God. The catechism is not the inspired word of God is it?

I quoted that the RC still uses the Athanasian Creed on Trinity Sunday. If it is read and used then that contradicts the statement in your cathechism.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

jam, can you tell me where you came to the conculsion that we “all” worship the same god?:

Christianity: The God revealed to us in the Bible is, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Islam: allah is not triune, is not to be called father and has no son

Christianity: God is love and full of forgiveness
Islam: allah is a god of hate and no forgiveness

Christianity: Jesus is God (Matt 17:5 Mark 1:1 Luke 1:35
Islam: Jesus is a prophet and rejects the divinity of Jesus (Koran 4:171. 5:114, 19:92

Christianity: Jesus was pre-existant to creation (Gen. 2:6, 3:22, Isaiah 48:12, 16) there are a ton more too
Islam: Jesus was a created being ( 3:55, 58

Christianity: Man is born into sin (Gen 3, 5:3, Romans 5:12,14…there are a ton more
Islam: rejects original sin (53:38, 6-165, 99:7,8

Christianity: Salvation only comes through Jesus (Acts 4:12 there are a ton more
Islam:Salvation only comes through obeying allah and mohammed (3:85,5:10,25:68,48:13

Islam denies Jesus’ crusifiction and death and resurrection (4:154-158

This is just the start. Jesus states in John 14:6 "I am the way the truth and the life, NO ONE comes to the Father except through ME.

If you say all religions lead to God then Jesus is lying.

The Jewish people also need Jesus for salvation.

I believe Muslims do regard Allah as merciful.

Trying to answer the question of whether the Muslim “Allah” is the same as the Christian God has various potential pitfalls. One would be the line of thought of those who focus too much on etymology to justify one position or another. The history and exact meaning of the name “Allah” can shed some light on the development of Islam, but ultimately we need to look at what real Muslims living today believe.

Another pitfall is being too vigorous in connecting the acceptance of Christian dogmas about God to whether someone believes in God at all. For example the line of logic that we believe God to be a Trinity, Muslims do not believe in the Trinity, therefore they do not believe in the same God.

The thing is it is possible to believe in God but hold heretical ideas about Him. I think for this question we need to work with a much more fundamental “definition” God than even the Trinity, namely a single uncreated Being that is the ultimate source of all other beings. As far as I know Muslims do believe in such a Being, and so we can say they believe in the same God, they just believe some very grave errors about Him, much like non-Christian Jews in that respect. This as opposed to, for example, Mormons, who use very Christian language about “God” (much more so than Muslims) but if I’m not mistaken mean something totally different, basically “God” and “Jesus” being two of many humans who have progressed to superhuman status.

 

[Birdpreacher]

I think romance (“romantic love” is a contradiction in terms) leads people to put each other on a pedestal that should be reserved for God and God alone. It is idolatry. I know this because Jesus said, “By their fruits you shall know them.” It is because of the gospel of romance that people are clamoring for the Church to accept homosexuality, divorce, and a whole bunch of other things. Jesus also said, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, and all your soul.” Romance leads people to “love” each other in the same way. They think they love each other, but love is eternal, and the problem with falling in love is that it’s just as easy to fall out of love. Therefore romantic love is a lie, and all lies come from Satan, who is the father of lies.

And if a non-Catholic became Catholic just to marry a Catholic, I would question his/her sincerity. Anything built on changeable feelings is built on sand.

Whatever is not of faith is sin.

All forms of Love, unrefined by the Church’s teachings, will lead to sin.
Romantic love has and will forever be a big part of Church Theology. Just because romantic love (or eros), if left undisciplined, will lead to sin does not mean that romanitc love, in of itself is sinful.

Pope Benedict exclaimed in Deus Caritas Est: that eros is the love between man and woman which is neither planned nor willed, but somehow imposes itself upon human beings.

The Pope goes on to say that Eros, if wielded w/o proper control will lead to the sins you characterized through the use of the word “romance” However, the Pope also says that it is wrong to completely do away with eros all together. This desire to put the other person on a pedestal is not sinful rather an essential part of what it is to be human.

It is both Eros and Agape (referring to love grounded in and shaped by faith.) that combine to give us the ability love as God desires us to.

Even if eros is at first mainly covetous and ascending,** a fascination for the great promise of happiness, in drawing near to the other**, it is less and less concerned with itself, increasingly seeks the happiness of the other, is concerned more and more with the beloved, bestows itself and wants to “be there for” the other. The element of agape thus enters into this love, for otherwise eros is impoverished and even loses its own nature. On the other hand, man cannot live by [agape] alone. He cannot always give, he must also receive. Anyone who wishes to give love must also receive love as a gift.

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html

Also The Book Song of Songs is part of our canon and even referenced by Benedict in the encyclical. The Book is basically a bunch of romantic love songs between a man and a woman. This just further goes to show that there is nothing wrong with exalting romantic love.

Here we can find a first, important indication in the Song of Songs, an Old Testament book well known to the mystics. According to the interpretation generally held today, the poems contained in this book were originally love-songs,perhaps intended for a Jewish wedding feast and meant to exalt conjugal love.

 

[jam070406]

It’s written clearly in the Catechism that we worship the same God as the Muslims and the Jews. That is Doctrine.

Doesn’t Jesus tell the Jews that reject Him that their father is the devil, the father of lies?

 

[Contarini]

So then the RC church denies that Athanasian Creed?

No. But clearly it is possible to refer to the same God while speaking incorrectly about Him. Otherwise you would have to say that not only Muslims but Jews do not worship God; that Arian heretics do not worship God (which would make the whole Arian controversy very weird, since it was about the relationship of the Logos to God–if they weren’t talking about the same being there would have been no controversy!); and that, contra St. Paul in Acts 17 and Romans 1 and the Fathers generally, Greek philosophers were not talking about the true God when they spoke of a supreme Deity.

If you’re talking about the phrase in the Athanasian Creed saying that anyone who doesn’t believe this will perish, then this is understood to refer to deliberate, culpable disbelief. Otherwise, once again, you would have to say that everyone in the Old Testament and probably most pre-Nicene Christians went to hell.

Since I am not RC I would like to ask that if RC’s put their catechism above the Bible?

No. But you seem to put your interpretation of the Athanasian Creed above Paul’s Athenian sermon in Acts 17 and his teaching in Romans 1, both of which make no sense unless he is assuming that the Greek pagans were talking imperfectly about the true God when they posited a supreme Divinity.

Above the exact words of Jesus?

Indeed not. Jesus routinely spoke to his fellow-Jews who rejected Him in language that implied that they were disagreeing about the same God, not speaking of different beings entirely.

This was not always the claim of the RC when did it change?

Actually yes. It has never been the Catholic position, as far as I know, that Muslims and Jews do not worship the true God. St. Thomas Aquinas makes it clear that he thinks everyone who is speaking of a First Cause, let alone Muslims and Jews who accept some truths of revelation, is/are speaking of the true God. The major exception was medieval Byzantium, in which it was mistakenly believed that Muslims thought God was a large metal ball. Naturally such a conception of God was rejected as idolatrous–but it was based on a Greek mistranslation of the Qur’an!

The statement that muslims and jews worship the same god was written by man not God. The catechism is not the inspired word of God is it?

It is an expression of the ordinary Magisterium–the teaching of the Catholic Church guided by the Holy Spirit. I’m not sure that this means that every single statement is infallible, however–I’d suspect not. This particular one is quite obviously true, it seems to me.

I quoted that the RC still uses the Athanasian Creed on Trinity Sunday. If it is read and used then that contradicts the statement in your cathechism.

You haven’t shown this to be true. Your logic is so sketchy, in fact, that I had to guess as to your precise argument–if I have guessed wrong, please correct me!

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

You’re the only one talking about people going to hell. I’m not sure a Catholic abandoning the Christian Faith for Islam is someone acting in good faith. Witnessing it was a scandal to the OP.

You misunderstood my post entirely. I was making an analogy to explain why I responded seriously to your sarcasm–it revealed a serious misunderstanding of the position you thought you were criticizing.

Edwin

 

[scipio337]

One wonders what the reaction in the Arab world would be, if the inverse were shown: A Muslim converting to Catholicism.

Apostacy is punishable in many Arab countries with death.

 

[Contarini]

One wonders what the reaction in the Arab world would be, if the inverse were shown: A Muslim converting to Catholicism.

Apostacy is punishable in many Arab countries with death.

Indeed.

It does puzzle me why people who clearly have a low opinion of Islam think that this is notable. Isn’t this what you would expect if Islam is a violent religion? And wouldn’t you expect Christians to behave not just a little bit better, but a whole lot better?

A basic Christian ethical principle is that you treat other people not as you think they would treat you, but as you would like them to treat you.

I feel embarrassed stating something so elementary as if it isn’t known to everyone, but it never fails to startle me how quickly this notion flies out the window when Islam comes up.

Edwin

 

[scipio337]

Indeed.

It does puzzle me why people who clearly have a low opinion of Islam think that this is notable. Isn’t this what you would expect if Islam is a violent religion? And wouldn’t you expect Christians to behave not just a little bit better, but a whole lot better?

A basic Christian ethical principle is that you treat other people not as you think they would treat you, but as you would like them to treat you.

I feel embarrassed stating something so elementary as if it isn’t known to everyone, but it never fails to startle me how quickly this notion flies out the window when Islam comes up.

Edwin

The musings of a hyothetical “low opinion of Islam” is entirely yours, sir.

If you care to answer a simple question with obfuscation, have at it.