TLM At the National Shrine

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It is odd. Mantillas, yes or no? [Cue heated debate].

Wear 'em if you got 'em, I say!

Could be that it’s an explosive combo: Ladies fashion + religion. [Looks around for a foxhole].
 
The trend seems to be:

If it can be dropped, drop it.
If it was done in another rite and/or hundreds of years ago, add it back in.
If it’s mundane but could maybe appeal to The Young People, add it in.
If it’s hierarchial, exclusive or emphasises the superiority of the priest, drop it.
If it plays down the personalities of those involves, drop it.

Revive any old practice. Except the TLM (shudder). That might result in awkward public displays of piety and fervour*. People might realise that It’s Not All About Them.

If you don’t really believe that Jesus is present in the Host and the priest is an alter-Christus and that divine powers are present in the sanctuary, then the changes to our rite make perfect sense.

Mass as Meal: O.F. Mass as Sacrifice: E.F.

Education, sanitation and inoculation have made for a very proud people who think they’re pretty much guaranteed a spot in Heaven. They don’t get the knocks their forefather’s did to remind them of their utter helplessness. Hence the displays in your local Church of a Sunday. They certainly don’t hear about Sin, Hell, Death and Damnation. That would interfere with the ‘Celebration’. Every bleedin’ Sunday.

Wearing a veil? In this day and age? How demeaning! You’re drawing attention to yourself! Social mores have changed. Just wear skinny jeans and tight top instead. Remember, what you feel internally is what’s most important (in a public rite)*.

*[note: sarcasm].
Finally someone who agrees with me on this issue. 👍
 
I wonder why this insignificant thing gets so much attention on these boards.
I wouldn’t call St. Paul insignificant. That to me is the crux of the matter. And with the expanded and vernacularized readings in the OF, I would think St. Paul would be even more heard and understood. But that doesn’t seem to be the case.
 
I wouldn’t call St. Paul insignificant. That to me is the crux of the matter. And with the expanded and vernacularized readings in the OF, I would think St. Paul would be even more heard and understood. But that doesn’t seem to be the case.
Of course Saint Paul also mentions regulations on the family of priests and bishops. Though, it has been the discipline of the Latin Church for at least 1000 years to allow only unmarried men to be ordained to the priesthood, there is no theological prohibition for it. Thus, since Saint Paul says it do the ‘traditionalist’ Catholics think we should now admit married men to the priesthood in the Latin Rite? Or do they see that certain things that Saint Paul wrote were not dogmatic pronouncements but pastoral guidelines for particular communities at a particular time and space in history.
 
The trend seems to be:

If it can be dropped, drop it.
If it was done in another rite and/or hundreds of years ago, add it back in.
If it’s mundane but could maybe appeal to The Young People, add it in.
If it’s hierarchial, exclusive or emphasises the superiority of the priest, drop it.
If it plays down the personalities of those involves, drop it.

Revive any old practice. Except the TLM (shudder). That might result in awkward public displays of piety and fervour*. People might realise that It’s Not All About Them.

If you don’t really believe that Jesus is present in the Host and the priest is an alter-Christus and that divine powers are present in the sanctuary, then the changes to our rite make perfect sense.

Mass as Meal: O.F. Mass as Sacrifice: E.F.

Education, sanitation and inoculation have made for a very proud people who think they’re pretty much guaranteed a spot in Heaven. They don’t get the knocks their forefather’s did to remind them of their utter helplessness. Hence the displays in your local Church of a Sunday. They certainly don’t hear about Sin, Hell, Death and Damnation. That would interfere with the ‘Celebration’. Every bleedin’ Sunday.

Wearing a veil? In this day and age? How demeaning! You’re drawing attention to yourself! Social mores have changed. Just wear skinny jeans and tight top instead. Remember, what you feel internally is what’s most important (in a public rite)*.

*[note: sarcasm].
Wow, what a abysmally poor understanding of the Catholic Church you have. 😦
 
I wouldn’t call St. Paul insignificant. That to me is the crux of the matter. And with the expanded and vernacularized readings in the OF, I would think St. Paul would be even more heard and understood. But that doesn’t seem to be the case.
Is this matter a violation of Papal infallibility?
 
Wow, what a abysmally poor understanding of the Catholic Church you have. 😦
With that unkind remark, you (and that Franciscan fellow) just hardened your opponent in his position even more. Instead of insulting him, why didn’t you just patiently try to show him where he goes off?
 
With that unkind remark, you (and that Franciscan fellow) just hardened your opponent in his position even more. Instead of insulting him, why didn’t you just patiently try to show him where he goes off?
This is page 19 of that very activity…
 
This is page 19 of that very activity…
Ive been on the receiving end of that as well. Many have been.
The Church is full of sinners. Even those with the deepest devotion to Our Lord. 🙂

How many times should we forgive? Seven times? No, seventy times seven times. 😉

Thanks be to God that He shows us more mercy, more patience and more Love than we show each other. 👍
 
Wow, what a abysmally poor understanding of the Catholic Church you have. 😦
What’s to understand? A simple before-and-after examination of the Latin Rite would leave even a pagan wondering what’s going on:

Edit the text;
Change the language;
Stop singing ancient hymns;
Add banal modern ones;
Let unvested laity in the sanctuary;
Let unvested laity read from the pulpit;
Let unvested laity sermonise at funerals;
Let unvested laity hand out Communion;
Remove the altar rails, so there is no sacred space;
Build bare new churches;

… then wonder why people behave casually towards your central rite.

I’ve read that all the sacraments have been altered. Including Exorcism, Last Rites and Ordination! Do demons need the vernacular? Does a dying man care whether extreme unction is in English? Does a priest need it when being ordained?** Were those old rites so broken they needed such drastic ‘fixing’?**

I maintain that Mass As A Meal makes sense of the changes to that rite. You don’t need railings, cotters, men-only and archaic language at a communal, celebratory meal. They only make sense at a mystic rite of propitiation.
 
Exactly. The New Testament is part of the Deposit of Faith which the Pope is supposed to defend, or so I thought**. Jesus said, in the New Testament, “Call no man father,” yet we Catholics call our priests “Father,” our Pope “Holy Father.” By your reasoning that women have to wear veils, we ought to obey what Our Lord said to the letter, oughtn’t we?/**quote]
 
What’s to understand? A simple before-and-after examination of the Latin Rite would leave even a pagan wondering what’s going on:
It seems you have a very sspx-ish stereotype of the Catholic Church built up in your head.
Change the language;
Yes, the Council permitted the use of the vernacular in the Liturgy. This isn’t new. In the Latin Church there has been use of the vernacular for centuries, for example, in Croatia. In the early Church, it was all more-or-less in the vernacular. In the Eastern Churches, the Liturgy in the vernacular has always been the norm (which I find ironic, since I know of several ‘ultra-traditionalists’ who attend the Byzantine Divine Liturgy [in English] to get away from the OF Mass).
Stop singing ancient hymns;
Says who? We still sing traditional Catholic hymns, such as Attende Domine during Lent, at my parish.
Add banal modern ones;
You are aware that even before the Council Pope’s had admonished against certain compositions of music. For example, Pope Pius IX (I think) wrote against using opera inspired music at Liturgy.
Let unvested laity in the sanctuary;
Let unvested laity read from the pulpit;
Would you feel better if they wore an alb?
Let unvested laity sermonise at funerals;
This has never been permitted (eulogies during Liturgy) and has always been a liturgical abuse.
Let unvested laity hand out Communion;
While I’m not the biggest fan of Communion in the hand (an indult that shows signs of soon being disallowed), it’s not like it is a brand new idea. Saint Basil talks about taking Communion and touching it all over (hands, eyes, nose, etc.) before eating it (obviously this was before the Byzantine Church distributed Communion via intinction).
Remove the altar rails, so there is no sacred space;
They didn’t remove the Sanctuary. Also, I don’t think Saint Peter’s in Rome ever had alter rails.
Build bare new churches;
I agree, they should all look like this:
http://hearteng.110mb.com/villages/berkswell4.jpg
(I’m a big fan of cyrpt churches!)
… then wonder why people behave casually towards your central rite.
“‘your’ central rite” – are you agreeing that you belong to some alien Catholic Church as was asked above?
I’ve read that all the sacraments have been altered. Including Exorcism, Last Rites and Ordination! Do demons need the vernacular? Does a dying man care whether extreme unction is in English? Does a priest need it when being ordained?
The sword cuts both ways – the same could be said of Latin.
Were those old rites so broken they needed such drastic ‘fixing’?
The Sacred Rites have been modified many, many times throughout history for many reasons. I’m sure someone said the same thing at the end of the Council of Trent when many rites were suppressed and Saint Pius V promulgated a revised Missal. You may also be surprised to know that since at least the time of Pope Leo XIII the Popes had been calling for liturgical reform and renewal.
I maintain that Mass As A Meal makes sense of the changes to that rite. You don’t need railings, cotters, men-only and archaic language at a communal, celebratory meal. They only make sense at a mystic rite of propitiation.
Please show where the Catholic Church has taught that the Mass is not a sacrifice. (spoiler: it hasn’t)
 
ProVobis;6597034:
Exactly. The New Testament is part of the Deposit of Faith which the Pope is supposed to defend, or so I thought**. Jesus said, in the New Testament, “Call no man father,” yet we Catholics call our priests “Father,” our Pope “Holy Father.” By your reasoning that women have to wear veils, we ought to obey what Our Lord said to the letter, oughtn’t we?/**
quote]
Not to mention Saint Paul mentions requirements for married priests and bishops – but I doubt that a single ‘traditionalist’ would want to see married men being ordained in the Latin Church.
 
Cradle Catholic vs Converts? 🙂
I hope it’s not that. I would hate to see two churches across the street from each other:

St. Mary of the Snow Craddle Catholic Church and St. Mary of the Sea Convert Catholic Church :eek:

When I made this comment was because I don’t see all the abuses that the poster spoke about. These things have happened, but certainly not all in one parish and not as the usual thing. Those are not common.

I’ve been a Catholic for 40 years and a religious for over 15 years. I have never seen these things happen on a daily basis. One has to say that these things have happened, but one has to also say that they are not the everyday situation.

In addition, there are changes that have been authorized by the proper authorities; therefore, it’s not wrong to implement them. It’s certainly not an obligation, but not a breach of law either.

If you watch our friars celebrate mass on EWTN you will notice that we celbrate the Ordinary Form, we don’t have communion rails, we don’t kneel for communion, we don’t have two altars on the side, we don’t have a crucifix front and center (aside from the small one on the altar), we do have lay brothers do the readings and not all of our priests celebrate mass. But one must ask why not?

The answer is simple. There are indults that were granted to many religious orders. These indults are centuries old. Let me just lay out a few. Though I have done so before.
  1. Trappists have never allowed themselves to have statues, paintings or any kind of iconograhpy in their churches. They must alwasy be white-washed, with a simple cross, not a crucifix. This was introduced by St. Bernard of Cleirveaux.
  2. Franciscans have never had kneelers, communion rails and have never knelt for communion or for the Eucharistic prayer. This was introduced by St. Francis of Assisi to avoid singularizing priests. The idea was that priests are still brothers. He never allowed mass or the Divine Office to be chanted. Gregorian chant was not allowed by St. Francis. It did not enter our houses until Vatican II allowed it. Kneeling for the Eucharistic prayer was introduced by Vatican II. We did not do this before. It was an option and the superior of the house set the rule according to the local culture. This was the case for 800 years.
  3. The Carmelites never allowed all of their priests to celebrate mass, unless it was necessary, such as a parish with many masses. Other than that, only one priest could celebrate the mass and everyone else attended.
  4. Monks and friars have always been allowed to receive communion in the hand. It was not done in parishes, because it was only meant for the conventual mass. But it was done where the laity were not able to see it. It was really up to the Abbot or the Prior to determine the practice for his house, again it depended on local culture. The customs varied from one region to another within the same order.
  5. The reason that religious men did not have communion rails, aside from the fact that we did not use them was that our founders believed that the entire church or chapel was sacred space. So in many orders you did not have them, nor did you have kneelers. You stood and sat.
  6. Benedictines never had the tabernacle in the church. The tabernacle was in the choir where teh monks prayed. The church was only used for mass and not used the rest of the day. The choir was in use 24/7. When the laity came to mass at the local church, which was usually attached to a Cathedral parish or a monastery, they did not have a tabernacle. That was started by St. Francis of Assisi in 1221. The custom spread because the order spread very quicly to every part of Europe.
My point is that many of the things that people find so horrible, have never been considered horrible by the Church or they would not have allowed them for hundreds of years. These practices have become more available to the laity. Maybe the laity was not ready for them or may still not be ready for them. But that does not make the practice evil. What it means is that we must make a better effort to catechize the laity and explain where this comes from and why men like Benedict, Albert, Francis, Dominic and Bernard made changes to the liturgy and why the Holy See approved them.

In additon, the Tridentine mass has not been the only mass celebrated in the Roman Church. The Roman Church has several Latin Rites that have been used alongside the Tridentine form.

The entire Roman Church does not follow the same liturgical calendar either. If you attend mass at a Franciscan house, you will notice that we celebrate the mass of the day, only when there is no Franciscan celebration for that day. Otherwise, the Franciscan missal and lectionary trump the Roman Missal and Lectionary. Several religious orders have their own missals and lectionaries with their own calendar, feasts, solemnities, readings, prayers and rituals. The laity is non the wiser, because if you belong to a Dominican parish, you have no idea what is happening up the street at the diocesna parish that follows the Roman missal and Roman lectionary.

I once had a person ask me why the priest on EWTN was wearing white on a green day. I though the question was worded funny. But I understood what the question was about. I explained that it was a Franciscan solemnity. The person realized that there had been three readings, a gloria and different prayers throughout the mass. I told the person that if they wanted to see real pomp and circumstance they should attend the Transitus. It’s a triduum in homor of the passing of St. Francis and it is almost identical to the Easter Triduum.

Before we get all upset, let’s first ask why? Many things have been carried outside the enclosure of religious men into the parish with the laity.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
  1. The reason that religious men did not have communion rails, aside from the fact that we did not use them was that our founders believed that the entire church or chapel was sacred space. So in many orders you did not have them, nor did you have kneelers. You stood and sat.
And if I remember correctly, I believe that pews were adopted by the Catholic Church from the Protestants. Before that everyone stood for the entire Liturgy. For example, I still don’t think there is any permanent seating in Saint Peter’s in Rome.
 
Permanent seating was only for the wealthy. That’s why in old cathedrals in Europe you see benches up only partway up the naive.

In St. Peter’s they were added. They did not always have the permanent seating either. The benches went up partway. But I don’t know when they were added.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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