TLM At the National Shrine

[JKirkLVNV]

I don’t see any confusion at all. “May the Lord this sacrifice at your hands…” is pretty clear.

Not to mention the Roman Canon, etc..

 

[Layman]

That’s what it’s supposed to be. If, however, there’s an intention amongst a section of the Church to de-sacralise the Mass or just emphasise the Meal aspect, the changes make perfect sense.

Otherwise, they don’t.

e.g. It’s a Holy Mystery, an Awesome Rite, but we’ll just turn away from the East, drop ancient hymns, put beautiful vestments in the attic, wreck some altars, sing modern folk songs, let unvested laity in there, change the text, drop sections of it etc. Mundane elements added, sacred (set apart) ones removed. Crazy!

I think it’s also a reflection of the ‘Jesus Is Love (and damnation is rare)’ preaching we get. If Jesus is easy going, there’s no need for all that ceremony and symbolism.

Also, I think the hierarchy scr*wed themselves. If they can make such massive changes in1969 then the precedent is set for Bishop Ecumen and Fr. YoungPeople to have their little local variations. Cue ladies dancing around the altar. Because David danced in the temple.

Sing with me now! “Bind us together on Eagles Wings Here I am, Lord!”

 

[JKirkLVNV]

That’s what it’s supposed to be. If, however, there’s an intention amongst a section of the Church to de-sacralise the Mass or just emphasise the Meal aspect, the changes make perfect sense.

Otherwise, they don’t.

e.g. It’s a Holy Mystery, an Awesome Rite, but we’ll just turn away from the East, drop ancient hymns, put beautiful vestments in the attic, wreck some altars, sing modern folk songs, let unvested laity in there, change the text, drop sections of it etc. Mundane elements added, sacred (set apart) ones removed. Crazy!

I think it’s also a reflection of the ‘Jesus Is Love (and damnation is rare)’ preaching we get. If Jesus is easy going, there’s no need for all that ceremony and symbolism.

Also, I think the hierarchy scr*wed themselves. If they can make such massic changes in1969 then the precedent is set for Bishop Ecumen and Fr. YoungPeople to have their little local variations. Cue ladies dancing around the altar. Because David danced in the temple.

Sing with me now! “Bind us together on Eagles Wings Here I am, Lord!”

I also complain about much of what you are talking about…but it’s not the OF’s fault and the EF isn’t going to solve it.

 

[ProVobis]

That’s what it’s supposed to be. If, however, there’s an intention amongst a section of the Church to de-sacralise the Mass or just emphasise the Meal aspect, the changes make perfect sense.

Otherwise, they don’t.

If the only reason people go to Mass is to receive communion, then by definition the Mass is only a meal to them.

 

[Layman]

I also complain about much of what you are talking about…but it’s not the OF’s fault and the EF isn’t going to solve it.

Sure it will. Say the old rite and all those problems disappear. Now that we’ve had 40 years of meddling, a priest improvising the old rite will look like the dilletante he is.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

If the only reason people go to Mass is to receive communion, then by definition the Mass is only a meal to them.

This is an absurdity. Receiving communion is a PART of rightly and fitly worshipping God. It is NOT “by definition only a meal to them,” it’s an integral part of being a Catholic Christian. The Mass exists as both sacrifice AND meal, just as the Passover sacrifice was consumed, so the Victim presented again is to be consumed. You assertion veers so far off of Catholic thought, it’s breathtaking!

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Sure it will. Say the old rite and all those problems disappear. Now that we’ve had 40 years of meddling, a priest improvising the old rite will look like the dilletante he is.

Provide proper catechesis and the the problems disappear (or the people who dissent will). And one can always tell when the OF is celebrated with improvisation. Please…you’re being far too simplistic.

 

[Spirithound]

Sure it will. Say the old rite and all those problems disappear. Now that we’ve had 40 years of meddling, a priest improvising the old rite will look like the dilletante he is.

Sorry but do a search on this forum for abuses that various members remember from before VII.

 

[Layman]

Provide proper catechesis and the the problems disappear (or the people who dissent will). And one can always tell when the OF is celebrated with improvisation. Please…you’re being far too simplistic.

Where will this catechecis come from? The ignorant can’t teach the ignorant. I bet even a liberal Bishop would be surprised if he picked ten members of his diocese under 40 years of age and gave them an old-style quiz on the cathecism. Or the rubrics of the Mass.

I wonder how many Catholic households even have a catechism these days?

 

[Layman]

Sorry but do a search on this forum for abuses that various members remember from before VII.

What, speeding up the Mass? Not in itself an abuse, as long as the words are correctly said.

So, because we had some abuses before (which were not part of the liturgy) this somehow excuses the free-for-all we have now?

 

[ProVobis]

And one can always tell when the OF is celebrated with improvisation.

With so many options allowed, I doubt it. One has only to read the posts in the L&S forum to see how confused many of them are.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

What, speeding up the Mass? Not in itself an abuse, as long as the words are correctly said.

So, because we had some abuses before (which were not part of the liturgy) this somehow excuses the free-for-all we have now?

No, it absolutely does not. You’re quite right, where it happens, it is egregious. But that’s changing and it is not inherent in the OF itself.

 

[JMJ_coder]

So, because we had some abuses before (which were not part of the liturgy)

And in like manner, one should not judge the Ordinary Form based on the abuses which are not part of and (in many cases) contrary to the Liturgy.

 

[JMJ_coder]

With so many options allowed, I doubt it. One has only to read the posts in the L&S forum to see how confused many of them are.

Quick, and without looking at any reference materials, tell me:

1. 
   *]every special rubric that is unique for the Paschal Triduum in the Missal of 1962
   *]all of the rubrics that are specific to the Priest in a Solemn High Mass according to the Missal of 1962
   *]all the differences (each and every one) between a High Mass and a Low Mass
   
   Now, do you seriously think that even a majority of Catholics prior to Vatican II could answer these questions adequately? The point being is that one does not have to be a liturgical expert to be a good lay Catholic.

 

[Layman]

Well, I’ve read it works like this:

Abuse is practiced in Holland;
Abuse spreads;
Vatican says no;
Abuse continues;
Bishops say “It is the work of the Holy Spirit amongst the people”;
Vatican issues indult.

Given that the O.F. is said with disregard for the wishes of those who approved it, the licence is there already. It’s an on-the-spot product snuck past the hierarchy and then further modified by disobedient clergy.

 

[Spirithound]

What, speeding up the Mass? Not in itself an abuse, as long as the words are correctly said.

How about the priest going so fast the choir can’t keep up?

So, because we had some abuses before (which were not part of the liturgy) this somehow excuses the free-for-all we have now?

Of course it doesn’t, provided that by “free for all” you mean the liturgical dancers, ad-libbed Eucharistic Prayers, super-soaker blessings on mardi gras, and clown Masses which are prevalent on this forum, but scarcely seen in real life, and not the legitimate options that the priest may select, like incense or not, sanctus bells or not, one of 3 forms of the Penitential Rite, and several Eucharistic Prayers and Memorial Acclamations. All I ask is that you be consistent. The OF can be abused, the EF can be abused.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

You’re quite wrong. I’m what I assume you would refer to as a “Novus Ordo” Catholic. I was (and most Catholics I know were) instructed that the Holy Sacrifice was just that, a holy sacrifice, THE Holy Sacrifice. The priest that rec. me into the Church told me that he always was conscious of Who he lifted up before the Father for our sins. I’ve always been aware of that and meditated on it during the elevation.

The OF is as demonstrative of that as the EF. The mind of “traditionalists” is not the mind of the Church on this Matter

Again, what teachings of the Church though? The Traditional or modern teachings? Both teachings can’t be right here.

As for that priest, I’m sure he has every intention of it being a Holy Sacrifice but it doesn’t mean it is. The Novus Ordo is a Mass that reflects more on the Last Supper than anything else.

 

[Layman]

By free-for-all I mean:

• Latin optional;
• Chant optional;
• EMHCs mandatory;
• Everyone in the ‘Sanctuary’, including the band;
• COTT, kneeling optional;
• Dialect optional;
• Vestments optional;
• Altar optional;
• Communion in both species optional;
• Sermons by laity at funerals optional;
• Ascension Thursday on a Sunday optional.

Then there’s the changes and omissions in the text itself.

Priest going too fast: again, not an abuse. And not a reason for a committee of unknowns to gut an ancient rite. Neither is ‘we can’t understand the Latin’. It’s a sacrifice offered on our behalf, not a speech made to us or a play made for our entertainment.

There’s been a deliberate attempt to banalise the central rite of Roman Catholicism, beginning with allowing the vernacular and then with mundane elements drip-fed into it subsequently. What has happened is an outrageous iconoclasm.

**I think it was partly to de-clericalise and de-Romanise our Church. Well, if so, it’s worked. In a way. Bishops now don’t fear Rome. **

I made a joke on this forum about the only place left to go would be old ladies dancing around the altar but apparently that’s commonplace in South America, now.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

Of course it doesn’t, provided that by “free for all” you mean the liturgical dancers, ad-libbed Eucharistic Prayers, super-soaker blessings on mardi gras, and clown Masses which are prevalent on this forum, but scarcely seen in real life, and not the legitimate options that the priest may select, like incense or not, sanctus bells or not, one of 3 forms of the Penitential Rite, and several Eucharistic Prayers and Memorial Acclamations. All I ask is that you be consistent. The OF can be abused, the EF can be abused.

No, the TLM cannot be abused. If A Mass has any abuses such as CITH, EMs, or some other type of abuse, then it’s not really a Traditional Latin Mass. It’s what you call a hybrid Mass, which is basically a Novus Ordo with some parts of the TLM thrown in. Like I said, you cannot mix the two Masses together, they don’t mix. You can’t excuse the clown masses either just because you haven’t seen them. They are a very serious abuse. As Father Corapi once said, “When you see a priest at Mass dressed as a clown, be assured that it was Satan who chose the attire”. Abuses are certainly there.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Latin optional;

Within the Latin Rite there has been allowances for the vernacular for centuries (such as in Croatia).

Chant optional;

How much chanting is done at a Low Mass?

EMHCs mandatory;

There is no mandate in this regard.

Everyone in the ‘Sanctuary’, including the band;

Not even close. Most of the congregation sits in the pews.

COTT, kneeling optional;

I think this has already been addressed several times in this thread.

Dialect optional;

Huh?

Vestments optional;

Are you serious?

Altar optional;

You’re either trying to be sarcastic or an idiot.

Communion in both species optional;

In the EF, there is only Communion under one species.

Sermons by laity at funerals optional;

This is not an option – it is forbidden.

Ascension Thursday on a Sunday optional.

Yes, the Bishops have been granted the authority to transfer certain Solemnities – but that is really fodder for another thread.