TLM At the National Shrine

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The Eastern Catholics and the orders came into the conversation because you called CITH a sacrilege. I said that if it were a sacrilege, it would not be allowed in any religious order or any of the 22 Catholic Churches.

You have not backed down and accepted that it’s not a sacrilege.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Show me where I have said that CITH is a sacrilege. Show me where I have used that word. I would understand sacrilege to be profaning the Host, like what happened at the London Oratory. I say that CITH is one more mundane element added to the rite. Likewise EMHCs. An object previously held, normally, to be untouchable by laity, now can be, in the central Roman Catholic rite. If God is present in the Host, why have we changed to letting laypeople distribute and handle it?

Coupled with the other changes (dropping Latin, hymns, editing the text, removing altar rails, unvested lay lectors) the overal trend is to the mundane.

My position: they may be legal, but, given the intent and nature of the rite and added all together, they are perverse.

Still waiting for a good reason for changing an Roman Catholic diocese over from COTT, kneeling, from a priest to CITH, standing, from a laywoman, at the Holy Sacrifice Of The Mass.
 
Show me where I have said that CITH is a sacrilege. Show me where I have used that word. I would understand sacrilege to be profaning the Host, like what happened at the London Oratory. I say that CITH is one more mundane element added to the rite. Likewise EMHCs. An object previously held, normally, to be untouchable by laity, now can be, in the central Roman Catholic rite. If God is present in the Host, why have we changed to letting laypeople distribute and handle it?

Coupled with the other changes (dropping Latin, hymns, editing the text, removing altar rails, unvested lay lectors) the overal trend is to the mundane.

My position: they may be legal, but, given the intent and nature of the rite and added all together, they are perverse.

Still waiting for a good reason for changing an Roman Catholic diocese over from COTT, kneeling, from a priest to CITH, standing, from a laywoman, at the Holy Sacrifice Of The Mass.
I’ll give an example – in the late 1920’s/early 1930’s in Mexico, due to the intense persecutions, the Eucharist was held in cabinets in a layperson’s home. If you wanted to receive Communion, you yourself (a layperson) would go into the cabinet grab a Host and self-communicate. And they had permission for this from the Pope.

Admittedly, it was an extreme situation, but it goes to show that it’s not absolute that laity cannot touch the Host.
 
Sorry, I should add, I’m talking about changing to letting the laity handle the host, when Communion is being distributed, within a Mass.

In adverse times, you do the best you can. I submit that these are times of plenty, yet we’ve added mundane elements and removed sacred (set apart) ones. I’m trying to divine the motivation; de-clericalisation, de-hierachialisation, populism, false archeologism or just the joy of revolution i.e. a change is as good as a holiday?

There was a lot of talk about trying to reach ‘The Young People’ when I was a lad but being an hormonal, hip teenager I thought the efforts corny. If you want to attract young people just 1. Forbid them do it or 2. Say it’s a bit too advanced for them.
 
Ah, perhaps the penny has dropped. Did EMHCs start because there weren’t enough religious to distribute Communion to the sick? And then did the nice, populist priests of Holland think it was no biggie to let them distribute at Mass as well? And then did holidaymakers and liturgical radicals get wind of this and eagerly introduce this practice in their progressive dioceses?

Quite exciting, if you’ve previously been forbidden to touch it. And I’m not being sarcastic here, for a change 😉
 
There is only ONE, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. The Church founded by Jesus Christ on the rock of Peter, lead today by Pope Benedict XVI the successor of Saint Peter.
As Archbishop LeFebvre once said, “This is not our Church!”. I’ll leave it at that and let you think about that quote.

Edit: By that quote by the way, I don’t mean Benedict XVI is not our Pope. Archbishop LeFebvre was talking about the Novus Ordo Church in that quote.
 
Show me where I have said that CITH is a sacrilege. Show me where I have used that word. I would understand sacrilege to be profaning the Host, like what happened at the London Oratory. I say that CITH is one more mundane element added to the rite. Likewise EMHCs. An object previously held, normally, to be untouchable by laity, now can be, in the central Roman Catholic rite. If God is present in the Host, why have we changed to letting laypeople distribute and handle it?
Fair enough. Maybe it was not you who said sacrilege, but someone here did say it and that’s when I said that it was not a sacrilege, otherwise the Church would be in serious trouble, because it has been done for centuries in those Churches who use the Chaldean Rite and in Roman religious orders of men.

Perverse is still not a good term, because one of it’s meanings is “wicked”. There was nothing wicked about it when it was done, either in the East or among medicants and monastics.
Coupled with the other changes (dropping Latin, hymns, editing the text, removing altar rails, unvested lay lectors) the overal trend is to the mundane.
These are objections that you’re entitled to have. But it does not make any of it wrong. Again, the proper way of thinking about these things is that they were the common way of doing things in the Latin Rite, not the universal way of the Latin Rite. The reason that I say this is because most people in the Latin Rite grow up in secular parishes. The secular deacons, priests and bishops were bound to this praxis, as were religious priests who were in simple vows. Orders in solemn vows were exempt from all of these rules since the 1200s when the Lateran Council named certain orders as exempt for liturgical disciplines, but allowed their founders or their superior to carry on with what they had inherited.

When these orders were asked to take on parishes, to help the bishops who were short of secular priests, they were given the option of using the Latin Rite as it was prescribed for the secular clergy or bringing their traditions to the parish. People in those parishes grew up with those traditions, be they no communion rails, no Gregorian Chant, standing during the canon, having non-ordained religious distribute the Eucharist, kissing the floor, no kneelers, no statues, a cross or an icon instead of a crucifix or whatever the traditions the order brought with them to the parish.

There was a very bad outcome to this. Many religious orders that took on parishes adopted to the secular priests form of saying the mass. This set the ordained religious apart from the non-clerical religious. After a while, it was very difficult to assign an entire community of religious men to a parish, because the ordained were on a different track. It was like having two communities in one house. The Major Superiors had to reign in those priests back into the religious traditions. They had to meet with the bishops and make it clear that either the bishop accept the customs of the order or the order would have to leave the parish. The result was catastrophic. Many of the ordained religious, left the orders, because they liked living and minstering as secular priests and no longer felt comfortable in the enviornment of the abbey or friary. It was decided that no one would be assigned to any parish unless it was clear with the bishop that the traditions of the order prevailed over the traditions of the Latin Rite. This was agreed upon by Pius XII.
Still waiting for a good reason for changing an Roman Catholic diocese over from COTT, kneeling, from a priest to CITH, standing, from a laywoman, at the Holy Sacrifice Of The Mass.
First of all, you can’t limit the distribution of communion to the priest. By law and tradition, if there is a deacon, it is his job to distribute communion. Today we have thousands of deacons, unlike 50 years ago. Also, as I said above, if you do that, then those religious orders that help the dioceses by covering parishes will leave those parishes or close them down. Because you cannot impose on them that the priest singularize himself, when it is forbidden to them. Under your proposal a non-ordained monk or friar would not be able to distribute commion. Monastic and mendicant orders do not have deacons. They are not allowed to have deacons, because a deacon is a cleric. You have to keep the number of clerics to a minimum. There is no great need for ordained men in religious life.

As to a secular person distributing communion at mass, the rules are very clear. They may be used when it’s necessary to speed up the process, such as when you have a very large crowd or when you have masses back to back as many parishes do. You have a legitimate complaint if there is a small crowd. There is no need for the EMHC at mass.

The EMHC also does a great service to the sick and homebound. Priests and deacons cannot make the rounds to hospitals, nursing homes and the homes of the parishioners who cannot come to mass. The number of these people with special needs is very large and the priests and deacons do not have the time to do so. They cannot leave the parish unattended for several hours every day. People would begin to become upset and I wouldn’t’ blame them. If you come to a parish and the priests and deacons are gone for four hours every day, it’s not fair to the parish. This is a good and holy service to the sick, elderly and disabled that the EMHC perform. We have to recognize this.

I have terminal cancer. I have been in the hospital many times, six in the past year. I have been very appreciative when the EMHC brings me the Eucharist on those days that a friar cannot come. When you’re at the other end of this ministry, you begin to appreciate it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Sorry to hear you’re so ill, JREd. Sad news. I hope for a miracle for you.

Don’t let the doctors use you as a guinea pig while they run down a list of invasive things to try. Occultists think that health is a result of ‘etheric energy’, which I would equate with the Power of the Holy Spirit, which ‘quickens’.

Healthy food, rest, sleep, sunlight, breathing, righteous thoughts and feelings increase it and the reverse deplete it. Just an idea which I picked up reading unorthodox books.** At the risk of sounding facetious, a ‘jump start’ from any living saint you know would be worth a try.**

I think it’s what one has more of when you bound out of bed in the morning on a hopeful day and it’s what one has less of when you’re in a rage or fearful; you get ‘tired’. Of course, there are mundane chemical effects in the body as well.

Well, to return to our debate, I think my objections boil down to:

Mundane elements added to the rite and sacred (set apart) ones removed, which individually, wouldn’t be so bad, but together? They cue people that Mass is an easy going event. That the priest isn’t set apart. That their participation is essential and that, like at a lecture, their understanding of every word is important. Democracy in the Mass(!)

An example: I attended a lovely TLM recently. Nice setting, pious priest, Gregorian Chant.
One newcomer used the Orans Posture to mimic the priest and moved up to stand near the front to do it. As the priest had his back to her, he was oblivious. Another plus point of Ad-orientem(!).

I’ve read one priest who wrote something to the effect that getting requests for communion wafers to celebrate Mass at home is not as uncommon as you’d think. I could be over-egging the pudding, there, but it stuck in my mind.
 
Another idea: perhaps we in the West have simply become too intellectualised about religious matters? It’s become something to think, talk and read about. Hence you can edit rites with impunity.

I doubt primitive peoples would take such liberties with their ceremonies.

A pity our priests and religious don’t go out into the wild to starve for a bit, like St. Simon Stock. A mystical experience would knock a lot of nonsense on the head, I’d say.
 
As Archbishop LeFebvre once said, “This is not our Church!”. I’ll leave it at that and let you think about that quote.

Edit: By that quote by the way, I don’t mean Benedict XVI is not our Pope. Archbishop LeFebvre was talking about the Novus Ordo Church in that quote.
There is only ONE Church. If someone thinks that the Pope heads two Churches (one a “Traditional Church” and the other a “Novus Ordo Church”), they are both insane and heretical.
 
Perhaps we might ask ourselves, what was meant by “bringing the Church up to the times” that was a goal of the Second Vatican Council. Well, the world is not the same today (or in the 1960’s) as it was at the time of the Council of Trent. For one, technology has radically changed the world – thus, there is a document on using social communications in evangelization. Another change is that the culture is very different. At the time of Trent, the Church was more-or-less European at the transition between the High Renaissance and the Baroque, all which related into a love of pomp and circumstance and ostentatiousness. The Church today is fairly well established on every continent except Antarctica and most people are turned off by too much pomp and circumstance (especially when repeated over and over again). Certain symbolism has changed in the traditional areas of Catholicism and other areas, such as Africa and Asia, may have drastically different meanings attached to certain symbols. Thus, part of the liturgical renewal was a rethinking of those elements of the Liturgy which were introduced into the European Renaissance Liturgy. Also, greater freedom was given for options of inculturation.

One of the marks of the Roman Liturgy has always been its austerity. But, that doesn’t mean “mundane”, as you put it in a pejorative sense. A monosyllabic Gregorian plainchant is quite austere compared to the polyphony of Palestrina, but both are equally beautiful. Yes, there is a beauty in the austerity that is the foundation of Roman Liturgy.
 
There is only ONE Church. If someone thinks that the Pope heads two Churches (one a “Traditional Church” and the other a “Novus Ordo Church”), they are both insane and heretical.
Hard to explain, but LeFebvre was not insane or heretical.
 
Hard to explain, but LeFebvre was not insane or heretical.
No one said that he was insane or heretical. He was disobedient. But this is not abou the Archbishop. First, the man is deceased. Let him rest in preace. Secondly, to use an excommunicated bishop to defend a position does not earn many graces or friends within the Church structure.

In fact, one of the conditions of the talks with the SSPX was that Archbishop Lefebvre would not be brought up in the discussions. This was a condition set by the Holy Father and by Cardinal Levada.

I’m not about to continue this discussion, which up to now has proceeded warmly, if the Archbishop becomes a part of it. If the Vatican does not want to discuss the Archbishop, then we should follow its example and avoid this subject.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Hard to explain, but LeFebvre was not insane or heretical.
Do you think “This is not our Church” could mean more accurately “This is not how we want our Church to be”, rather than denoting or connoting a massive (and Papal) apostasy?
 
Perhaps we might ask ourselves, what was meant by “bringing the Church up to the times” that was a goal of the Second Vatican Council.
This was a mistake. It opened the door for revolution, which was panting to get in. In mundane terms, the Council gave a clique a marvellous opportunity to advance an agenda.

People respect continuity, tradition and plain statements of belief. Following the ‘latest thinking’ is a sure way to become dated within a decade. The Church used to move at a snail’s pace and thus avoided this.

The Mass is a symbolic act of reverence towards the Creator Of All Things. Pomp and circumstance are entirely appropriate. 'Austerity’ is something your practice when you’re poor, and we’re not. Even then, many ornate churches were built with the pennies of the poor.
 
‘Austerity’ is something your practice when you’re poor, and we’re not.
As I said earlier – Gregorian Plainchant is quite austere compared to the polyphony of Palestrina. Do you think Gregorian Plainchant is either non-beautiful or doesn’t have a proper place in the Roman Liturgy?
 
As I said earlier – Gregorian Plainchant is quite austere compared to the polyphony of Palestrina. Do you think Gregorian Plainchant is either non-beautiful or doesn’t have a proper place in the Roman Liturgy?
Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860), was a brilliant German philosopher. These 38 Stratagems are excerpts from “The Art of Controversy”, first translated into English and published in 1896. Schopenhauer’s 38 ways to win an argument are:
**1)… Carry your opponent’s proposition beyond its natural limits; exaggerate it. The more general your opponent’s statement becomes, the more objections you can find against it. The more restricted and narrow your propositions remain, the easier they are defend.
**2)… Use different meanings of your opponent’s words to refute his or her argument. …
experimentalist.posterous.com/38-ways-to-win-an-argument-according-to-schop
 
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