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brotherhrolf
Guest
Now, Michaelā¦You and I both know wherein ye post. Gee, Iām sure Father A, his Irish self, himself, would be overwhelmed by your suggestion of an English translation of an eastern chant? We sang the Stychera in English on Holy Thursday for 18 years. I was told that the Stychera was EO in origin. Iām sure Fr A would be more than willing to correct me in my stupid Celtic self.Glory to Jesus Christ!
Hello brotherhrolf, thanks for the welcome
Thatās pretty nice, but I was not responding to you, thanks for the history lesson though.
I never mentioned a Renaissance English translation of the liturgy as such, I just made what I hoped would be a nice suggestion for some good music! The English of the liturgy could be contemporary.
I also would like to suggest plainchant, it sounds good in English.
Iām sorry, Michael. My Irish Catholic self , so honestly formed before V II, and so honestly formed within the rites of our Latin HMC just has a real problem with those of our kith and kin who have sought other folds.
Hey, I sang in a cathedral choir from 1983 to 2001. And we, as a cathedral choir, struggled. Yes, we were all too aware that there were excellent English translations of the Latin Mass. For a large part of the late 80s we used the 1940 Episcopal Hymnal until we were finally able to convince our Rector that it was OK to sing Pange Lingua in Latin?
Michael, Iām not even going to try to give you what I feel. I grew up in the Latin Rite Church. I was not happy when we went to the NO. I went to an EO (for us, OK, donāt flame me because I donāt know) Great Vigil - Holy Saturday for us., OK?
Six hours in church. Christos anesti! Alithos anesti! How do you think my little pre- VII heart would respond to that?
If I can rejoice in the risen Christ with my EO brethrenā¦
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Anima_Christi
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How about you celebrate your Eastern liturgy in LATIN. Do you like that idea?
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Ham1
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The Eastern Churches generally celebrate the divine liturgy in the vernacular (including) which obviously differs from place to place. I suppose if there was a place where latin was the vernacular they might provide a latin translation.
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kage_ar
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Every one of these hymns are sung in my NO Parish, and in many NO Parishes I know. We also have bells and patens and the occasional insence
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Hesychios
Guest
Actually I have been interested in that possibility. It has already been done but I am unaware of any recordings of it.
I am sure the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom would be stunningly beautiful in Latin. My guess is that it can be done at Grottaferratta, according to some of their older books.
As Ham1 stated accurately above, we do not have any real justification for applying Latin to the liturgy because there are no populations that speak it on the street or at table. There is also no nostalgia for it in the population, which is more attached to Greek and Slavonic.
The Greeks use an archaic form (of Greek) as a liturgical language, but it was once the common tongue. There are many who would like to see that updated to modern Greek and other modern vernacular languages in the diaspora.
The Slavs used Slavonic originally because everyone understood it in the ninth century, the only differences were dialects at the time. It is retained as a liturgical language by 2/3rds of the Slavic Orthodox around the world, something like Latin was for centuries. We have no problem with liturgical language but formally we agree the vernacular is perferred and accepted. We know applying the vernacular to worship was significant in the growth and spread of the church. It is historical fact.
The parish I belong to was established by Russians over 100 years ago. Today some of their descendants are still with us but we have moved on from Slavonic to English for most of the Liturgy since the 1970ās, I believe. My pastor does not actually speak Russian, but he can pray the Slavonic with no problem, if necessary, as can most of the clergy.
I like Latin. I have no preference of Greek or Slavonic over Latin, to me they are all the same. But I pray and worship in the language I know and use and prefer that. One can learn everything about what we believe just by following our liturgy and calendar, we pray our beliefs and for that reason catechesis is highly effective, even without a formal catechism available. This is why the vernacular has such an importance to us, especially in mission work.
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maryalene
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I agree. We sing mainly ātraditionalā songs at our church. While we donāt have patens, incense is used throughut the year except during Ordinary Time. We also have a little Latin mixed in too.Every one of these hymns are sung in my NO Parish, and in many NO Parishes I know. We also have bells and patens and the occasional insence
I do want to attend a TLM because I have read so much about it, but we have absolutely beautiful liturgies at our church with no abuses or innovations.
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Andreas_Hofer
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I personally think introducing the vernacular into the TLM, at least if done all at once, would disrupt the spirituality of that rite as weāve come to know it. Many, perhaps even the majority, of TLM attendees at my parish treat it as a dialogue Mass, but I think the more mainstream spirituality of the TLM leading up to the reform was still not one of personally saying the congregational responses. This fosters an extremely different sort of active participation than a Mass in which one is called upon to speak specific words at specific times. When one isnāt responsible for upholding a dialogue there is freedom to unite oneself truly but more loosely to the specifics of the sacrifice, being able to meditate upon specific points as they arise for you as opposed to being tied to the text. This also challenges a worshipper to really focus on investing himself in the action of the Mass. Is one way or the other better? I donāt know. I try to balance myself by using my missal most of the time but every so often leaving it at home to make sure I donāt slip into reading the Mass instead of fully praying it.
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TNT
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Really?
You may well be in discord with the good Pope Paul VI:
CHANGES IN MASS FOR GREATER APOSTOLATE
Pope Paul VI
Address to a General Audience, November 26, 1969
Code:
Our Dear Sons and Daughters:- We ask you to turn your minds once more to the liturgical innovation of the new rite of the Mass. This new rite will be introduced into our celebration of the holy Sacrifice starting from Sunday next which is the first of Advent, November 30 [in Italy].
ā¦ - So what is to be done on this special and historical occasion? First of all, we must prepare ourselves. This novelty is no small thing. We should not let ourselves be surprised by the nature, or even the nuisance, of its exterior forms. As intelligent persons and conscientious faithful we should find out as much as we can about this innovation.
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Sola_Roma
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I think it wouldnt be a bad idea.
So long as its the same everywhere.
And stays 100% true to the original text.
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paramedicgirl
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Holy God, we praise thy name - my favourite traditional hymn. Too bad itās been replaced with ridiculous songs (I canāt quite call them hymns) like We are One in the Spirit and the even more ridiculous Lord of the Dance.
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AJV
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āHoly God, we praise Thy Nameā is sung in my parish monthly or more brotherhrolf. I like that. Unfortunately canāt say the same for Immaculate Mary. Would much prefer if they had one of the antiphons
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AJV
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Well actually on weekdays they usually donāt have any singing at the day Masses. Spoken all the way. When they do, it is usually some classic Offertory song like āOn the paten with the host I offer up my lowly heartā. Canāt say I like those either. But at least itās not bad theology.
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GoldenArrow
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I attended the SSPX Traditional Latin Mass. Iāve attended the Novus Ordo Masses. I really felt most at home with the Vatican II Latin Indult Mass, which is a hybrid between the two. I wish this Mass were the custom. Iām a traditionalist (with a little āt,ā at heart) in the Novus Ordo Church. I still wear a veil!
Iām sort of a wierd mix of old and new.
I even like singing songs like Amazing Grace and Rolling Thunder during Mass, but also like singing the Ave Maria and Salutaris Hostia during Benediction. I really like both types of music equally well. Iāve cried during Rolling Thunder and during the Ave Maria. Theyāre both giving glory to God, and thatās whatās important.
The people at my church are really good people, too, and I love my Novus Ordo parish. They really work hard in their ministries. The core Catholics are really very, very good people who are trying to make a difference, trying to keep our Ship afloat. I also think our bishop, Robert Vasa, is the coolest dude on the planet second only to the Pope! He is wonderful, and he shepherds his flock.
I still think thereās great hope for us, and I pray for a reconcilliation with SSPX. I think we can meet somewhere in the middle, canāt we?
God Bless!
Iām sort of a wierd mix of old and new.
I even like singing songs like Amazing Grace and Rolling Thunder during Mass, but also like singing the Ave Maria and Salutaris Hostia during Benediction. I really like both types of music equally well. Iāve cried during Rolling Thunder and during the Ave Maria. Theyāre both giving glory to God, and thatās whatās important.
The people at my church are really good people, too, and I love my Novus Ordo parish. They really work hard in their ministries. The core Catholics are really very, very good people who are trying to make a difference, trying to keep our Ship afloat. I also think our bishop, Robert Vasa, is the coolest dude on the planet second only to the Pope! He is wonderful, and he shepherds his flock.
I still think thereās great hope for us, and I pray for a reconcilliation with SSPX. I think we can meet somewhere in the middle, canāt we?
God Bless!
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