TLM minus the Latin

[maryalene]

Really?
You may well be in discord with the good Pope Paul VI:
CHANGES IN MASS FOR GREATER APOSTOLATE

Pope Paul VI
Address to a General Audience, November 26, 1969

Our Dear Sons and Daughters:

1. We ask you to turn your minds once more to the liturgical innovation of the new rite of the Mass. This new rite will be introduced into our celebration of the holy Sacrifice starting from Sunday next which is the first of Advent, November 30 [in Italy].
   …
2. So what is to be done on this special and historical occasion? First of all, we must prepare ourselves. This novelty is no small thing. We should not let ourselves be surprised by the nature, or even the nuisance, of its exterior forms. As intelligent persons and conscientious faithful we should find out as much as we can about this innovation.

In summary, The designer of your Mass created it AS an Innovation & a Novelty. The NO Mass is intended to be an Innovation in its very essence.

Perhaps I should have been more clear - I meant with no innovations from the current rite (i.e. liturgical dancers, clapping, inclusive language, etc.). I know some people on this forum may have never experienced them, but please know that there are wonderfully reverent and spiritually uplifting Masses out there using the current missal.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Well actually on weekdays they usually don’t have any singing at the day Masses. Spoken all the way. When they do, it is usually some classic Offertory song like “On the paten with the host I offer up my lowly heart”. Can’t say I like those either. But at least it’s not bad theology.

No, I meant what do they sing in between the really sacred songs that you said they sing monthly? Do they mix them up with politically correct and liturgucally uncorrect songs that are gender neutralized? You know, songs like We are One in the Spirit, and Lord of the Dance… Oh well, I guess at least one sacred song is way, way better than none.

I wish the choir at my parish would sing at least one sacred song. I have asked our priest if he could have them include one traditional hymn every Sunday, but so far, no go.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Holy God, we praise thy name - my favourite traditional hymn. Too bad it’s been replaced with ridiculous songs (I can’t quite call them hymns) like We are One in the Spirit and the even more ridiculous Lord of the Dance.

I cringe even looking upon the words of We Are One in the Spirit. I’ve been to a local parish where they were singing from the 1970s musical Godspell. To paraphrase an old English prayer: From the fury of the modernists, O Lord, save us!

 

[paramedicgirl]

I cringe even looking upon the words of We Are One in the Spirit. I’ve been to a local parish where they were singing from the 1970s musical Godspell. To paraphrase an old English prayer: From the fury of the modernists, O Lord, save us!

 

[brotherhrolf]

I even like singing songs like Amazing Grace and Rolling Thunder during Mass, but also like singing the Ave Maria and Salutaris Hostia during Benediction. I really like both types of music equally well.

Amazing Grace doesn’t bother me. I’m not familiar with Rolling Thunder (Gratias tibi Dominie perhaps). Our choir has several settings of Ave Maria from the Gregorian Chant from which we sing before Mass. I can still hear Tantum Ergo and O Salutaris Hostia in my head for Benediction.

A lot of the old hymns are still in current Catholic hymnals.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Amazing Grace doesn’t bother me. I’m not familiar with Rolling Thunder (Gratias tibi Dominie perhaps). ** Our choir has several settings of Ave Maria from the Gregorian Chant from which we sing before Mass. I can still hear Tantum Ergo and O Salutaris Hostia in my head for Benediction. **

A lot of the old hymns are still in current Catholic hymnals.

I’m soooo jealous!

 

[maurin]

Really?
You may well be in discord with the good Pope Paul VI:
CHANGES IN MASS FOR GREATER APOSTOLATE

Pope Paul VI
Address to a General Audience, November 26, 1969

Our Dear Sons and Daughters:

1. We ask you to turn your minds once more to the liturgical innovation of the new rite of the Mass. This new rite will be introduced into our celebration of the holy Sacrifice starting from Sunday next which is the first of Advent, November 30 [in Italy].
   …
2. So what is to be done on this special and historical occasion? First of all, we must prepare ourselves. This novelty is no small thing. We should not let ourselves be surprised by the nature, or even the nuisance, of its exterior forms. As intelligent persons and conscientious faithful we should find out as much as we can about this innovation.

In summary, The designer of your Mass created it AS an Innovation & a Novelty. The NO Mass is intended to be an Innovation in its very essence.

With all due respect, and I am almost certain that you understand the difference, if the words ‘innovation’ and ‘novelty’ were univocal, I would tend to agree with your point. However, as these words are equivocal you are putting a slant on the statements that were not intended.

It is easy enough to research the different shades of meaning from the benign to the negative.

 

[E.E.N.S]

ALL vernacular? No. I think it would be closer to what the Church called for if the propers were in the vernacular while the rest remained in Latin.

Though I think the ALL Latin Mass (with the readings re-read in the vernacular) would be best for universality, but hey, I am not as wise as the Church.

 

[TNT]

With all due respect, and I am almost certain that you understand the difference, if the words ‘innovation’ and ‘novelty’ were univocal, I would tend to agree with your point. However, as these words are equivocal you are putting a slant on the statements that were not intended.

It is easy enough to research the different shades of meaning from the benign to the negative.

Are you saying you have the implied “shade” of this man’s meaning??
No matter the shade…he says what he means…innovation…novelty.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Are you saying you have the implied “shade” of this man’s meaning??
No matter the shade…he says what he means…innovation…novelty.

When I first read that document, I was also struck by the words that Pope Paul VI used in describing the new Mass. Words like innovation, annoyance, many-sided inconvenience, and there it is again, novelty and innovation. Pope Paul VI’s own words left me wondering if even he really believed it was a good idea.

 

[BobP123]

I happen to have a copy of the Anglican Catholic “TLM” liturgy. Very beautiful actually with "Thee’s and "Thou’s throughout. Yes, the English language can sound very reverent and poetic as well.

However, I’ll take the Traditional Mass in Latin. And I want the theology of Trent and every single letter that was promulgated by Pius V, thank you. But it you want to add the Epistle and Gospel (and maybe other propers) in vernacular as part of the sermon, I could live with that. Also the prayers after Mass.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Long before Paul VI published his missive in 1969, we had already endured the transitional Mass which was partly in Latin and partly in English. I was an altar boy when this occurred.

I’m telling y’all from my own personal experience. By 1969 we had gone from organ and singing Praise to the Lord, to no organ, only guitars and the now politically incorrect Sons of God.

Am I the only one on these forums who recognizes what a profound sea change this was? In less than four short years to go from Pange Lingua to They’ll Know We Are Christians by Our Love?

 

[rpp]

Long before Paul VI published his missive in 1969, we had already endured the transitional Mass which was partly in Latin and partly in English. I was an altar boy when this occurred.

I’m telling y’all from my own personal experience. By 1969 we had gone from organ and singing Praise to the Lord, to no organ, only guitars and the now politically incorrect Sons of God.

Am I the only one on these forums who recognizes what a profound sea change this was? In less than four short years to go from Pange Lingua to They’ll Know We Are Christians by Our Love?

This has not been lost on many. However, good devout Catholic cathoics tend to be humble and obedient. Humble and obedient people do not make trouble generally.

Not so devout devout people, and people with false piety and false humility will make a lot of noise if them feel they have been slighted and ignored. Thus the not so saintly handful can steam-roll the devout crowd.

That is how we got here.

 

[maurin]

Are you saying you have the implied “shade” of this man’s meaning??
No matter the shade…he says what he means…innovation…novelty.

Let us not forget that “this man” was chosen by the Holy Spirit.

If I did not make myself clear before, I will try to now. I believe that you are applying meanings to the words that were not intended.

For example–and these might not be the best examples, but I bet you can figure out what I mean with no slants–, The Last Supper was a novelty and an innovation in terms of the Traditional Jewish Passover Meal. Taking the Last Supper as a starting point, the Tridentine Mass was an innovation and a novelty.

Believe me, TNT I am unhappy for many of the same reasons you are. But Jesus gave the power to bind and to loose to Peter. Not to us. I’m not willing to insinuate, as the protestants do, that Jesus’ promise is meaningless. Or deride His choices.

Pray for me on Sunday, if you don’t mind my imposition. I will be worshipping for the first time in my life at a Traditional Latin Mass. None of my friends or family will come with me, so I am going alone. Because I think it is where He is leading me.

thank you.

 

[TNT]

Let us not forget that “this man” was chosen by the Holy Spirit.

If I did not make myself clear before, I will try to now. I believe that you are applying meanings to the words that were not intended.

For example–and these might not be the best examples, but I bet you can figure out what I mean with no slants–, The Last Supper was a novelty and an innovation in terms of the Traditional Jewish Passover Meal. Taking the Last Supper as a starting point, the Tridentine Mass was an innovation and a novelty.

Believe me, TNT I am unhappy for many of the same reasons you are. But Jesus gave the power to bind and to loose to Peter. Not to us. I’m not willing to insinuate, as the protestants do, that Jesus’ promise is meaningless. Or deride His choices.

Pray for me on Sunday, if you don’t mind my imposition. I will be worshipping for the first time in my life at a Traditional Latin Mass. None of my friends or family will come with me, so I am going alone. Because I think it is where He is leading me.

thank you.

I’m very happy for you. The graces of this Mass are incalculable!

Now
**RE:
**

Let us not forget that “this man” was chosen by the Holy Spirit.

Please do not promote this. It is not true, and was never true since Peter.
The Church has never taught such a thing because it is saying in effect that the Electors, whoever they may be, had their free will snatched and could not act freely…for good or evil as they chose.
This idea that God directly intervenes in choosing a pope is really beyond the pale for any good Catholic.
It puts the election of a pope, every time, on the level of Divine Inspiration at least equal to the Inspiration of Sacred Tradition which includes the Bible itself.http://bestsmileys.com/nono/4.gif
Re:

the Tridentine Mass was an innovation and a novelty.

Actually it was a rather Sloooowww development over several centuries. It was not an innovation. That’s the whole point of honoring the TLM.
Anyway, you may have the last word if you choose, because I’ll leave this rest as is.
I want a full report on your experience…http://bestsmileys.com/beging/1.gif.

 

[AJV]

No, I meant what do they sing in between the really sacred songs that you said they sing monthly? Do they mix them up with politically correct and liturgucally uncorrect songs that are gender neutralized? You know, songs like We are One in the Spirit, and Lord of the Dance… Oh well, I guess at least one sacred song is way, way better than none.

Never heard them. No gender neutralisation.

It’s a bit of a mix actually. Benediction hymns and psalms will be contemporary-ish to traditional hymns but they sing O Salutaris and Tantum Ergo.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Never heard them. No gender neutralisation.

It’s a bit of a mix actually. Benediction hymns and psalms will be contemporary-ish to traditional hymns but they sing O Salutaris and Tantum Ergo.

I wish our Sunday choir would at least mix in the *occasional *traditional hymn for Sunday Mass. At daily Mass, there is a lady who sings beautifully, and she always sings Marian hymns or very traditional ones. I just wish it could carry over to Sundays.

Here’s an example of a song that was gender neutralized. We are One in the Spirit - When our choir sings it, they take out “man” and sing “each others’”. I’m sure those are the lyrics they were presented with, and I doubt they made the change on their own accord, though. I can’t stand the song either way.

 

[maurin]

I’m very happy for you. The graces of this Mass are incalculable!

Now
**RE:
** Please do not promote this. It is not true, and was never true since Peter.
The Church has never taught such a thing because it is saying in effect that the Electors, whoever they may be, had their free will snatched and could not act freely…for good or evil as they chose.
This idea that God directly intervenes in choosing a pope is really beyond the pale for any good Catholic.
It puts the election of a pope, every time, on the level of Divine Inspiration at least equal to the Inspiration of Sacred Tradition which includes the Bible itself.http://bestsmileys.com/nono/4.gif
Re:
Actually it was a rather Sloooowww development over several centuries. It was not an innovation. That’s the whole point of honoring the TLM.
Anyway, you may have the last word if you choose, because I’ll leave this rest as is.
I want a full report on your experience…http://bestsmileys.com/beging/1.gif.

Good response!! I don’t want to reduce the conversation down to who gets the last word. I am not trying to debate a different side of the issue. I hope it remains clear that we are of similar mind.

As far as your words about the Papal Election, and how it is guided, yes you make excellent points about free will. Because I really don’t know what I am talking about in this area–I spoke from assumption and not from knowledge, never having studied for myself this very idea we are now discussing–I defer to your knowledge. And I thank you for giving me something else to research, and publicly remind myself of what happens when one assumes (ever hear Felix Unger’s definition? ).

As far as your point about the “slllooooowww” development of the Traditional Latin Liturgy, I understand better your point, but there is still an image in my mind of a glacier, no matter how slowly it advances or recedes, every advance or recession is a novelty–it’s new. That’s really my point in a nutshell.

Thanks for your patience with me as I grow in understanding.

Thank you also for expressing interest in the experience I will have for the first time on Sunday. I am very excited, scared and confident that I am doing what is right. I am sure that I will have a million and two questions. I look forward to writing about my “first time.”

I am happy to be in conversation with you.

sincerely, and in Jesus’ Sacred Heart,

maurin

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Has TLM ever been done in English in the history of the universe?

 

[Triumpha]

I wonder how many would be in favour of the TLM mass, except having it all done in the vernacular as opposed to Latin.

As an option, along side the Latin, I would have no problem with it.

If only that had been as far as the “reforms” had gone!

Triumpha,