TLM on the way ??????

[palmas85]

Well, it’s nice to think it will happen. I hope it does, although I’m not sure how most would react to it. I have a hunch that a lot of the Bishops will outright refuse to go along with it if it does happen, maybe forcing a showdown of sorts. . Look what happened when Pope Paul VI came out with Humanae Vitae:bigyikes: . For those of you not old enough to remember, it was like World War 3 had broken out. Headlines like Roman Pontiff Ignores Catholic Wishes, Bishops In Open Revolt, What Next, Another Inquisition??? etc. Full page ads was taken out in many newspapaer nationwide loudly denouncing the document and bearing signatures of many and highly placed clergy and theologians. Copies of Humanae Vitae were actually burned outside Churches by disident Priests and Clergy. Well this was the 60’s you know

And do you know why? Not so much because of the continuing of the ban on birth control, no, although that was certainly in the minds of many bad enough, no the thing that really ticked them off was that the Pope had acted on HIS OWN He had overriden his own advisory council. He had not acted in a collegial manner as they said Vatican II had envisioned. According to them the Holy Father was not supposed to do anything that the Bishops don’t agree with.

In the end, the document stood because there was really nothing the Bishops could do about it. But from what I see more than a few catholics ignore it completely. As for this matter, I don’t know. I do know that if a Priest decided to celebrate a Traditional Mass in defiance of a Bishop he could have a very tough time of it. The Church is a beaurocracy and you don’t really buck superiors too much in any beaurocracy. It can be highly detrimental to your position.

I’ll just wait and see,

Note: Here in San Diego the Bishop has been allowing more and more Traditional Masses lately, giving permission for Nov 1 and Midnight Christmas masses this year, for the first time in many years. There is even a rumor that we may get our own Parish within the next year or two, although I’m not going to hold my breath on that one.

 

[steve_green_2]

I think most bishops will be in shock when it does happen.

 

[Swiss_Guard]

Well, it’s nice to think it will happen. I hope it does, although I’m not sure how most would react to it. I have a hunch that a lot of the Bishops will outright refuse to go along with it if it does happen, maybe forcing a showdown of sorts. . Look what happened when Pope Paul VI came out with Humanae Vitae:bigyikes: . For those of you not old enough to remember, it was like World War 3 had broken out. Headlines like Roman Pontiff Ignores Catholic Wishes, Bishops In Open Revolt, What Next, Another Inquisition??? etc. Full page ads was taken out in many newspapaer nationwide loudly denouncing the document and bearing signatures of many and highly placed clergy and theologians. Copies of Humanae Vitae were actually burned outside Churches by disident Priests and Clergy. Well this was the 60’s you know

And do you know why? Not so much because of the continuing of the ban on birth control, no, although that was certainly in the minds of many bad enough, no the thing that really ticked them off was that the Pope had acted on HIS OWN He had overriden his own advisory council. He had not acted in a collegial manner as they said Vatican II had envisioned. According to them the Holy Father was not supposed to do anything that the Bishops don’t agree with.

In the end, the document stood because there was really nothing the Bishops could do about it. But from what I see more than a few catholics ignore it completely. As for this matter, I don’t know. I do know that if a Priest decided to celebrate a Traditional Mass in defiance of a Bishop he could have a very tough time of it. The Church is a beaurocracy and you don’t really buck superiors too much in any beaurocracy. It can be highly detrimental to your position.

I’ll just wait and see,

Note: Here in San Diego the Bishop has been allowing more and more Traditional Masses lately, giving permission for Nov 1 and Midnight Christmas masses this year, for the first time in many years. There is even a rumor that we may get our own Parish within the next year or two, although I’m not going to hold my breath on that one.

I completely agree with you Palmas. While I would love to see a universal indult for the TLM, I agree that most bishops would cause so much trouble for the few priests that would want to say it that the priests would think it’s just not worth the trouble.

A universal indult without an apostolic administration would not really change anything.

Also, you’re right that the bishops would be upset with Benedict XVI issuing a universal indult for the same reason they were upset with Paul VI for promulgating Humanae Vitae. The bishops don’t like it when the pope tells them what to do. They want to tell the pope what to do.

I also agree with ByzCath about these rumors. I used to work for the Coalition in Support of Ecclesia Dei which is a non-profit organization dedicated to promoting the Tridentine Mass. We used to hear these rumors constantly that John Paul II was going to issue a universal indult. Obviously, there was no truth to these rumors. I, too, will believe it when I see it.

I’m glad to read that San Diego is allowing more Tridentine Masses. I’ll pray that your parish gets the TLM very soon!

 

[kleary]

We have been hearing this since the last days of Pope John Paul II, and even more since the election of Pope Benedict XVI.

Actions speak much louder than rumors and the rumor mill has been churning for a long time.

I hope this rumor is true, yet I have heard the same thing before, and before, and before.

Believe me I am all for it. I am about ready to move 40 miles west to my indult parish if they do not free the Roman Mass!!!

Ken

 

[Caesar]

Sounds good to me. But I’ll believe it when I see it

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Sometimes I wonder about what it was like back after the Council of Trent.

How many people longed to have “their mass” restored to them after the Pope mandated a change in the liturgy so that everyone did what Rome did.

I bet it was different than now as there was no media or mass communications like we have today but I do know that if they did have what we have today that the response would most likely be the same.

 

[Caesar]

Sometimes I wonder about what it was like back after the Council of Trent.

How many people longed to have “their mass” restored to them after the Pope mandated a change in the liturgy so that everyone did what Rome did.

I bet it was different than now as there was no media or mass communications like we have today but I do know that if they did have what we have today that the response would most likely be the same.

Differance: at the Council of Trent a whole new Mass was not created. The position of the altar was not changed, neither the language nor the liturgical chant was taken away, and the Mass basicaly stayed the same (the only differances in the Mass between various Dioceses were minor, and the main differance was the Liturgical Calendar which differed from Diocese to Diocese). After Trent there was no “New Mass”, it was the same Mass, just standardized for the entire Latin Church.

Also, religious orders and some Dioceses were allowed to keep their Rites- note the Ambrosian Rite in Milan.

 

[demerzel85]

If it really emerges, its benefits on the faithful would be huge.

 

[Cortes]

We used to have a Sunday Tridentine Mass at my parish at 11:00 am in our main church. It was typically celebrated by a well-regarded, retired monsignor (former pastor) or a Franciscan priest from the local friary, but very few people ever attended. As the other Masses continued to swell in attendance, this one was finally made a Pauline Mass as well

To give an idea. Our parish has several Masses each Sunday from 07:00 to 7:30 pm. Each Mass draws between 350-600 people except the Tridentine Mass which drew 50-75, tops. Yes, it was well advertised, particularly in our parish bulletin and our diocesan newspaper.

With the shortage of priests (and the common bination and even “trination” we now see all the time) and the relatively few people who care to attend the Tridentine Mass in some locations, it’s clear that its application will be more limited than many people believe – even with this status change.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Differance: at the Council of Trent a whole new Mass was not created. The position of the altar was not changed, neither the language nor the liturgical chant was taken away, and the Mass basicaly stayed the same (the only differances in the Mass between various Dioceses were minor, and the main differance was the Liturgical Calendar which differed from Diocese to Diocese). After Trent there was no “New Mass”, it was the same Mass, just standardized for the entire Latin Church.

Also, religious orders and some Dioceses were allowed to keep their Rites- note the Ambrosian Rite in Milan.

But what was not different is that a Mass other than was practiced in some places was forced upon people.

So for them it was a New Mass. It was not the same Mass as everywhere. It was the Mass as done in Rome that was mandated for the whole Latin Church.

As a matter of fact, the Mass that is called the TLM is not the Mass from Trent anyways as it was reformed many times since then.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

If it really emerges, its benefits on the faithful would be huge.

Can you elaborate on this point? I just don’t see it. Not that I am against the TLM but a universal indult will cause problems.

What happens when a priest decides that he is going to do it yet know one in his parish knows Latin or really wants to attend a TLM? Are we now going to go to the other extreme and force the majority of people out of a parish becuase of the priest’s preference? What about the priest being a servant? If this happened the bishop would be forced to step in and remove that priest from the parish.

 

[demerzel85]

Can you elaborate on this point? I just don’t see it. Not that I am against the TLM but a universal indult will cause problems.

What happens when a priest decides that he is going to do it yet know one in his parish knows Latin or really wants to attend a TLM? Are we now going to go to the other extreme and force the majority of people out of a parish becuase of the priest’s preference? What about the priest being a servant? If this happened the bishop would be forced to step in and remove that priest from the parish.

From the perspective of Priests already having proper Ecclesia Dei documentation, but the Bishop just not giving permission for the TLM to be celebrated, the widening of the indult would benefit these Priests. Those that wish to celebrate the TLM will quite obviously make the effort to improve their Latin and become more familiar with the rubrics.

Giving all Priests the option to choose which Rite to use automatically mean that there are going to be a situation where every single Priest is going to offer the TLM. In fact, there are many Priests who are hostile to the TLM let alone not being fluent in Latin and being unfamiliar with the rubrics. These Priest would continue to be allergic to the TLM, and a widened indult will not cure them.

Would the congregation be at the mercy of preferences of the Priests of their Parish? No. The provision of the option does not equate to the option actually being used. Further, even if the option is used Novus Ordo Masses in the Vernacular are still going to be the norm. Latin Novus Ordo Masses and the TLM would still be rather limited, but considerably more widely available then present.

As for the congregation not being familiar with Latin…well its time that the provisions in Vatican II that Latin be taught to the laity be implemented.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

With the shortage of priests (and the common bination and even “trination” we now see all the time) and the relatively few people who care to attend the Tridentine Mass in some locations, it’s clear that its application will be more limited than many people believe – even with this status change.

This is similar to the problem the US has when they try to issue a $1 coin. Why does it fail? The SBA was too close to a quarter and they didn’t get rid of the other option (the $1 bill). The Sacagewea was an ugly tarnished bronze color after being in circulation for a little while and they didn’t get rid of the other option.

A “true believer” like myself (a numismatist) scoffs at the claim that the SBA was too close to a quarter because we can tell them apart by touch and see the difference a mile away. As to other things, I can tell you if there is a silver coin (amongst all the copper-nickel clad stuff) in a pocketful of change just by the distinctive “ring” it makes when it is dropped. This took some studying and more than anything-you have to actually care. Most people aren’t “true believers” though, unfortunately and it is the same way with the Mass. Most people don’t know about the TLM, and don’t care to know. Before I started going to the TLM, I got myself interested in it, devoured books and articles about it, went to a little class given by the FSSP priest on how to use a missal and bought one and used it faithfully. Most people won’t do that kind of thing, they’d rather just show up, sing lame music, receive Communion and blow right out of there. You can’t get someone fired up if they don’t care in the first place.

The second part, and I know this won’t fly very well, but since most people are lukewarm and lazy we need to take away their myriad options. You need to kind of “make” them go in order to get them to do anything. Also, we need to tighten up discipline at the NO (well, that is a given regardless of what happens with the TLM). No more nonsense.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

The second part, and I know this won’t fly very well, but since most people are lukewarm and lazy we need to take away their myriad options. You need to kind of “make” them go in order to get them to do anything. Also, we need to tighten up discipline at the NO (well, that is a given regardless of what happens with the TLM). No more nonsense.

No, it won’t fly, Comrade. Many people are not lukewarm and lazy. Many people prefer the Pauline Mass, as much as others prefer the TLM. Taking away the option to attend the Pauline Mass (and in the vernacular) would be as hurtful to us as loosing the TLM was to those who had it before. I very much doubt that the Holy Father will be taking away options, (though I’ve no doubt he will be tightening up on the rubrics, as you suggest), because that’s undoubtedly the lesson the Church HAS learned.

 

[Cortes]

I think the Tridentine Mass is fine. I also think the Pauline Mass is better. I like the use of the vernacular. I like the greater use of Sacred Scripture. Just look at the Mass and how it’s celebrated on EWTN or at the National Shrine – absolutely sublime.

So while I have absolutely nothing against the Tridentine Mass (I’ll attend one in a pinch), I much prefer the Pauline Mass. I suspect the great majority of Catholics feel the same way, and it has nothing to do with being “lukewarm and lazy.”

 

[ComradeAndrei]

No, it won’t fly, Comrade. Many people are not lukewarm and lazy. Many people prefer the Pauline Mass, as much as others prefer the TLM.

I’m not saying that people who actually know their stuff and prefer the NO are lukewarm and lazy rather that there are plenty of folks out there who are. So, if you take a poll of Catholics as to what Mass they prefer, you’ll probably get more for the NO-many who like it for what it is and know their history, theology, etc. and many who like it because all they know is that “Vatican II got rid of Latin” and other nonsense like that.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

From the perspective of Priests already having proper Ecclesia Dei documentation, but the Bishop just not giving permission for the TLM to be celebrated, the widening of the indult would benefit these Priests. Those that wish to celebrate the TLM will quite obviously make the effort to improve their Latin and become more familiar with the rubrics.

What? Can you explain this more. It is the local bishop who approves the indult so what is this Ecclesia Dei documentation you speak of? To even request the indult a “community” must request it, a single priest can not do so, at least that is what I get from my reading of the revelant documents.

As for the congregation not being familiar with Latin…well its time that the provisions in Vatican II that Latin be taught to the laity be implemented.

Would be nice but 1) where is the money going to come from to pay for such a thing and 2) you can’t make people go.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

With the shortage of priests (and the common bination and even “trination” we now see all the time) and the relatively few people who care to attend the Tridentine Mass in some locations, it’s clear that its application will be more limited than many people believe – even with this status change.

Just wait. In Mexico each parish has a number of chapels where the Eucharist is celebrated on Holy Days of Obligation. The one we visit to help out with over Holy Week and the Easter Vigil has one parish Church, 12 chapels, and the prison. In the community that serves this parish there are 3 priests and 2 brothers. This is why we go help out.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Also, you’re right that the bishops would be upset with Benedict XVI issuing a universal indult for the same reason they were upset with Paul VI for promulgating Humanae Vitae. The bishops don’t like it when the pope tells them what to do. They want to tell the pope what to do.

Unless, of course, the pope is telling them to scrap the traditional rite and use this new book he just had written.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Would be nice but 1) where is the money going to come from to pay for such a thing and 2) you can’t make people go.

It doesn’t necessarily require money to teach the congregation Latin to the point mandated by Vatican II, namely that they be able to know what they’re saying as they participate in the ordinary of the Mass.

When I was in third grade our priest taught us the Agnus Dei and Sanctus along with some other hymns (like Parce, Domine). He did it all for free.